Well, I did multiple in-game tests... what I did was set myself at 0/20/35 and fired off 200 shot intervals at full rotation. Then I would mana up and repeat. I did this 5 times (1000 shots fired). I then went to 0/20/41 (readiness doesn't matter for this test) and did the same thing. I ended up with ~6% higher overall dps. At the time I had the same weapon I do now, though slightly lower stats. Worth noting though also, I missed 1 shot more after I had MT, but I accounted for that. In any case, that was well over a month ago, and I didn't keep a log of it (my bad). So those numbers are approximations.
Thing is, I didn't, in any way, record up-time of MT, just the end results for damage & dps.
I think I figured out the way of determining the re-proc average btw... trying to simplify it right now, but basically I came up with ~2% less overall crit due to reprocs. That puts the results far more in line with our estimates.
You are going to have sample size issues with those tests. Total DPS doesn't matter so much as change to crit%. The difference between the two is the effect of MT. And even over 1000 shots there is going to be some variance. I did 4K shot tests for the hit rating stuff, and saw crit variances that were significant.
Of course, tracking uptime is an even better method. If you have a combat log of the tests I can write a perl script to determine uptime of the Master Tactician effect.
Yep, it's correctly (to my knowledge) modeled based on the specified shot rotation in the spreadsheet. The numbers are accurate for any point after 8 seconds from the start of combat. It is a simple uptime calculation.
Unless you really, really want Readiness, or your weapon speed is less that 15% ineffecient, you are always better off putting 6 points in low BM talents (IAotH and FF) than MT & Readiness.
Well... I don't debate that at all. I've constantly told people that weapon speed 100% determines whether you're better off with MT or IAotH. I'm just more interested, at this point, with the actual value of MT.
I think I've got it damned near perfect on my spread sheet though, and the #'s are starting to seem a lot more in line with everyone's assumptions.
You are going to have sample size issues with those tests. Total DPS doesn't matter so much as change to crit%. The difference between the two is the effect of MT. And even over 1000 shots there is going to be some variance. I did 4K shot tests for the hit rating stuff, and saw crit variances that were significant.
Of course, tracking uptime is an even better method. If you have a combat log of the tests I can write a perl script to determine uptime of the Master Tactician effect.
Oh, I know... I was just providing one small example is all. I wouldn't trust those numbers for anything more than an approximated example anyway.
I think I figured out where I was making an error in the formula though, and I think I've got down how to include re-proc correctly... at my current weapon speed and rotation I'm ending up with 3.2% crit over time using my setup. That seems dead on accurate with what I've experienced in-game in general.
Oh, I know... I was just providing one small example is all. I wouldn't trust those numbers for anything more than an approximated example anyway.
I think I figured out where I was making an error in the formula though, and I think I've got down how to include re-proc correctly... at my current weapon speed and rotation I'm ending up with 3.2% crit over time using my setup. That seems dead on accurate with what I've experienced in-game in general.
So how are you modeling it in your spreadsheet? The equation you posted to the official forums isn't really that accurate.
Did you also catch my comment about not being able to fit 1.7 specials inside a 2.4s cycle? That's going to make a difference too, in reducing your chances to proc the buff.
So how are you modeling it in your spreadsheet? The equation you posted to the official forums isn't really that accurate.
Did you also catch my comment about not being able to fit 1.7 specials inside a 2.4s cycle? That's going to make a difference too, in reducing your chances to proc the buff.
Yeah I did, and I've completely edited that initial equation in my spread sheet... Still working on it. I've got one part of the calculation that still isn't making sense.
Note: Brain is fried, and I need food... I just realized even in the new version I've got something bass ackwards. Starting from scratch after lunch. More and more though, 3.5 is still sounding like a solid average. :P
Yep, it's correctly (to my knowledge) modeled based on the specified shot rotation in the spreadsheet. The numbers are accurate for any point after 8 seconds from the start of combat. It is a simple uptime calculation.
Unless you really, really want Readiness, or your weapon speed is less that 15% ineffecient, you are always better off putting 6 points in low BM talents (IAotH and FF) than MT & Readiness.
Thanks for the response Cheeky, I'll poke around the formula page to satisfy my curiosity
The next question is has anyone ever modeled out the value of double rapid fires from readiness (aka, finding an optimal use-cycle for readiness and rapid fire and seeing how much it would improve your dps compared to a single rapid fire w/ IAotH)?
Thanks for the response Cheeky, I'll poke around the formula page to satisfy my curiosity
The next question is has anyone ever modeled out the value of double rapid fires from readiness (aka, finding an optimal use-cycle for readiness and rapid fire and seeing how much it would improve your dps compared to a single rapid fire w/ IAotH)?
It may take some time, but you can "select" Rapid Fire as an ability in the Shot Rotation tab. It then speeds up everything until the effect wears off. With the way the Shot Rotation makes everything a true cycle by timeing back to the first shot, leave the first one as None.
You can then compute the DPS gain from Rapid Fire, and average that over the uptime/cooldown ratio. My gut feeling is Readiness would make it worth while in a fight where you can use it twice and the fight is over in 2-3 minutes, but in a 10-15 minute encounter IAotH is probably still going to be better. Rapid Killing might even be better over time than Readiness for that.
(Also not sure if I modeled RF to use a GCD or not.)
It may take some time, but you can "select" Rapid Fire as an ability in the Shot Rotation tab. It then speeds up everything until the effect wears off. With the way the Shot Rotation makes everything a true cycle by timeing back to the first shot, leave the first one as None.
You can then compute the DPS gain from Rapid Fire, and average that over the uptime/cooldown ratio. My gut feeling is Readiness would make it worth while in a fight where you can use it twice and the fight is over in 2-3 minutes, but in a 10-15 minute encounter IAotH is probably still going to be better. Rapid Killing might even be better over time than Readiness for that.
(Also not sure if I modeled RF to use a GCD or not.)
Important to note though.. if a fight was, for example, 7 minutes long, and you used your rapid/readi in the first minute, you could effectively have 5 rapid fires with Readiness and Rapid Killing. That's a lot of 40% speed boost. Combine that with having Abacus (if you use it) 3 times, and you've got yourself a CONTROLLED speed boost for around 25% of the fight.
I'll take that over AIotH any day. FTR - I haven't had the opportunity for any 25-mans at this point, so all of my L70 raiding experience is in Kara. The few "longer" fights in there I have managed 3x Rapid Fires and 2x Abacus before, which was a ton of extra dps.
Important to note though.. if a fight was, for example, 7 minutes long, and you used your rapid/readi in the first minute, you could effectively have 5 rapid fires with Readiness and Rapid Killing. That's a lot of 40% speed boost. Combine that with having Abacus (if you use it) 3 times, and you've got yourself a CONTROLLED speed boost for around 25% of the fight.
I'll take that over AIotH any day. FTR - I haven't had the opportunity for any 25-mans at this point, so all of my L70 raiding experience is in Kara. The few "longer" fights in there I have managed 3x Rapid Fires and 2x Abacus before, which was a ton of extra dps.
So do you drop down into a 1:1 rotation with Rapid Fire, or the [Abacus of Violent Odds]? If so, is the damage from just Auto/Steady superior to the Auto/Steady/Arcane/Multi? I know, for me, Auto Shot seems to be my least damaging shot these days (Kara+ gear).
So do you drop down into a 1:1 rotation with Rapid Fire, or the [Abacus of Violent Odds]? If so, is the damage from just Auto/Steady superior to the Auto/Steady/Arcane/Multi? I know, for me, Auto Shot seems to be my least damaging shot these days (Kara+ gear).
Yeah, I would push down to auto/steady/KC (note: I would get more KC hits in this simply because of timing, I don't use shot macro). Typically my DPS would only increase by a little bit, 5-10%, but it was a small increase with a massive increase in mana efficiency. What I tried to do was time it so that I would be in my "speed phases" while potions were on cooldown, so that I was on full rotation when I had the most mana available, and so on.
Of course... if AotV ends up being as good as it might be after 2.2... I may have to completely change how I do things. If it gets to the point where you're literally firing "free steady" at <10%, it could make for some very interesting changes.
I'm a few days too late but on the issue of Zurgat's highest agility items the Ravager's Wrist Wraps of Agility (Karazhan Animal boss) have 41 Agility on them. I may or may not have them on in my Armory profile (depending on if I logged in PvP/PvE gear).
Sup' guys, just want to contribute to this nice thread. ;D
I respecced survival and started getting the gear for it a couple of weeks ago and some days ago i tried the 5/20/36 build with iaoth, but I didnt like it very much. I felt that when aoth procced it totally messed up my rotations and was hard to adjust to it every time it popped. Especially when my computer isn't top notch so I dont have the best fps always. Now i use 0/27/34. My gear isn't totally awesome for survival just yet, but I have about 840ish agility fully raidbuffed, just need better luck with the epix.
2/3 TOTH and 3/3 EW or 3/3 TOTH and 2/3 EW? Based on Cheeky's spreadsheet, with 3/3 TOTH the average recovery is about 19.03%, while 2/3 is 12.56%, with EW, 3/3 is 258.51 average +AP and 2/3 is 240.93.
I'm kinda at a lost at what the mana average recovery is, so if somebody more enlightened can explain it to me, that'd be great so I can decide whether 3/3 TOTH is more worth it over 3/3 EW.
2/3 TOTH and 3/3 EW or 3/3 TOTH and 2/3 EW? Based on Cheeky's spreadsheet, with 3/3 TOTH the average recovery is about 19.03%, while 2/3 is 12.56%, with EW, 3/3 is 258.51 average +AP and 2/3 is 240.93.
I'm kinda at a lost at what the mana average recovery is, so if somebody more enlightened can explain it to me, that'd be great so I can decide whether 3/3 TOTH is more worth it over 3/3 EW.
With more crit "3/3" becomes less needed, if you're above 30% then "2/3" should cover you well enough.
As for mana recovery, if you're in the group with a shadow priest then you'll have to worry about this less, but chances are that a BM hunter or mage will be put there instead.
I had this dilemma at one point. Tried 2/3 TotH and it was almost useless. 3/3 TotH is a lot better than 2/3 in practice.
You should take 3/3 in both talents, for now.
I had 2/3 TotH for a long time because I was Readiness specced. The only thing I could say about it is that it was 33% less effective 3/3 TotH, which I am now specced. 3/3 TotH is great but I wouldn't give up a point in Mortal Shots for it.
Sorry if this has been answered before, but is there a spreadsheet around that calculates the amount of EW downtime you will get with 2/3 and a varying crit rate? For example with a 30% crit rate and 2/3 EW you will have on average X% uptime and Y% downtime.
I had 2/3 TotH for a long time because I was Readiness specced. The only thing I could say about it is that it was 33% less effective 3/3 TotH, which I am now specced. 3/3 TotH is great but I wouldn't give up a point in Mortal Shots for it.
Sorry if this has been answered before, but is there a spreadsheet around that calculates the amount of EW downtime you will get with 2/3 and a varying crit rate? For example with a 30% crit rate and 2/3 EW you will have on average X% uptime and Y% downtime.
Sorry if this has been answered before, but is there a spreadsheet around that calculates the amount of EW downtime you will get with 2/3 and a varying crit rate? For example with a 30% crit rate and 2/3 EW you will have on average X% uptime and Y% downtime.
Originally Posted by soulesschild
Cheeky's spreadsheet does it.
Cheeky's spreadsheet doesn't work with OpenOffice, so if I may ask, around how much crit% does the third point of EW become unnecessary? I am currently specced 2/3 EW right now and feel that it is already enough. Raid buffed and grouped with feral druids, I can reach near 45% crit.
I've dropped surefooted completely - I'm over the hit-cap in my regular gear. I don't think any hunter who has cleared Kara/Gruul should have TOO much of an issue in that respect.
I'm a fairly newly specced Surv hunter and only have about ~850agi raid buffed, so I've kept 3/3 in both EW and ToTH.
In the future I plan to remove one point from EW and place it in GFTT, probably around 950-1000agi raid buffed.
I have 5/5 Imp. Mark also - basically this build is purely "EW Martyr... plus more".
I generally sit in the Top 5 for Gruul, which is nice, 660-720dps is the norm (fluctuates a little when I'm RL!). We're a newly progressed guild (yet to venture into SSC) so I look forward to getting my hands on some more agi-centric gear.
Unfortunately I've had terrible luck with Midnight Leggings and Hourglass of the Unraveller, hopefully once those shortcomings are addressed I MAY be able to move that extra point into GFTT a bit earlier than anticipated (as I'm usually with LOTP in raids, putting me at ~40% crit).
I hope that helps you Eulcon. I recommend you go back to the iAoTH build and lower your graphics settings or turn off some mods or make yourself an auto/steady/arcane macro to spam, if you're seriously having difficulty.
You're missing out on good opportunity to crit for your raid and keep EW up. Ever since I've specced 5/5 Imp. Mark and 3/3 EW, Rogues have been sitting atop our WWS logs and grinning all the way there!
After about a week's worth of time raiding with it I can attest to the fact that the Tsunami Talisman is pretty much amazing. With the high crit rate enjoyed by SV hunters the Fury of the Crashing Waves buff is up a lot (I'd give you some numbers but the WWS of our last Kael kill isn't up right now). The Hourglass is also quite good. I sadly am stuck switching my second slot between Bladefist's Breadth and the Mark of Conquest.
Just respecced to survival last night (I'd been wanting too for so long now!! ) and I realised that Thrill of the Hunt returns 40% mana cost of the BASE mana cost of shot used. Which is pretty nifty if you go for 5/5 Efficiency, meaning you get more than 40% of the FINAL mana cost of the shot you used. Here's a pic of final mana costs and mana return values from our shots (I have 5/5 Efficiency):
So TotH returns close to 45% of the final mana cost of the shot used.
As an example, lets take steady shot:
With 5/5 Efficiency, the mana cost of steady shot goes from 110 to 99. With 3/3 TotH you'd expect 39-40 mana returned, which is 40% of 99 mana. However in reality, you get 44 mana in return, which is 40% of 110 mana, or just over 44% of 99 mana.
So yeah, TotH is even nicer than I thought for mana return
07/17/07, 1:57 PM
so I can decide whether 3/3 TOTH is more worth it over 3/3 EW.
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