I'm just going to break down your post into smaller quotes so it's easier for me to reply. I'm not trying to be condescending or anything:
Originally Posted by Sore82
The problem I have been having with going 0/20/41 is that in order to do so, I have to give up Efficiency. I am the only consistent Hunter in our raids...we have 2 BM Hunters, but they will swap between them on who gets in, while I am usually in all the time. So, that is the main reason why I have the iHM talent. Going 0/20/41 would make me completly lose Efficiency. It would look sorta like this:
That spec looks good, but I'd personally drop a point in imp FD and put it into Deterrence. Deterrence + Readiness + Deterrence can be very nice for tanking a boss for a few percent (it gives me ~95% dodge/parry when raid buffed), or simply for saving clothies on trash. Also I'd drop entrapment if you're doing Felmyst soon.
I dont know of any Survival spec that can have points in efficiency *and* 5/5 imp HM. You're either Barrage(or even RWS at the loss of TotH) or you're Master Tactician and Readiness in Survival. (Or 7 in BM with 1/3 TotH *and* a loss of Barrage) My two common specs for Survival are: It's fun to have Scatter + Wyvren sometimes, and it's still a great raiding spec My pure raid (sunwell) build
I suppose you can drop scatter/wynvren for 2 points.. but if I'm going a serious raid spec I'm doing 0/20/41 anyway.
I cant even get 3/3 TotH without taking a point out of Mortal Shorts or Expose Weakness (neither of which are worth that kind of loss). I already have enough mana issues when im not in a group with a SP...giving up that talent just really concerns me.
Ah the good old days of 4 BM hunters and a SP in a group, back in the 2.1 BM-a-thon! These days though, there's no point wasting a SP on hunters when a JoW gives us near unlimited mana. If you dont raid with a ret paladin, and your holy paladins are bad, then there is something more important to look at before slight talent spec adjustments.
Also, btw, according to your WWS report, you only got off 3 Rapid Fires, where I got off 2, which makes sense as it is a 6min fight and RF is on a 3min cooldown. If done at the right times, our Rapid Fire should be coming back up pretty much right as the fight ends.
I think one of two things may have happened:
- I fucked up somewhere and didnt use my rapid/readiness properly.
- I refreshed my second Rapid Fire just as the first one was running out, so WWS didnt pick up the re-application.
And what problems are you having with the 2:1/3:2/1:1 macro while hasted? Have you tried the one I posted a couple pages ago that was a 2 part macro?
"Steadyshot steadyshot steadyshot steadyshot" etc. It's not just while hasted either, it's all the time, hasted or not. I'm not even using KC or Lightning Breath at all. Simply /cast Steadyshot /cast (!)Autoshot. Oceanic latency I'm sure plays a part. Oceanic = no macros, at least in my experience, if you want to do half decent damage.
The reason why I said "that spec would be even better if the macro worked" is because I currently do a 1:1.5 hand weave rotation suits the Barrage spec a little better, and pure steady/autos suits a Master Tactician/Readiness spec. However I feel the Master Tactician/Readiness spec is better regardless of hand 1:1.5 or steady/auto macro, it's just that each spec optimises a different rotation a little better.
That spec looks good, but I'd personally drop a point in imp FD and put it into Deterrence. Deterrence + Readiness + Deterrence can be very nice for tanking a boss for a few percent (it gives me ~95% dodge/parry when raid buffed), or simply for saving clothies on trash. Also I'd drop entrapment if you're doing Felmyst soon.
First off, we have already killed Felmyst (US 1st), so the fight is nothing new to me. The build I linked there was just a "suggestion" for what I could do...but not something I am really considering atm. As for Deterrence, I understand its usefulness, but at this point, and probably not ever, will I be putting any points into it. FD is far more valuable for myself, so taking a point out of that is not an option.
I dont know of any Survival spec that can have points in efficiency *and* 5/5 imp HM. You're either Barrage(or even RWS at the loss of TotH) or you're Master Tactician and Readiness in Survival. (Or 7 in BM with 1/3 TotH *and* a loss of Barrage)
I still have full 3/3 EW as well as 3/3 TotH, 3/3 Barrage and everything else that would be "typical" of a standard Survival build. The only thing I have that is missing full points is 3/5 Efficiency...but again, having 3/3 TotH is more valuable to me at this point with my high crit rate.
Ah the good old days of 4 BM hunters and a SP in a group, back in the 2.1 BM-a-thon! These days though, there's no point wasting a SP on hunters when a JoW gives us near unlimited mana. If you dont raid with a ret paladin, and your holy paladins are bad, then there is something more important to look at before slight talent spec adjustments.
I understand the value of Ret Pallys, and we do have one...however, we have only 1. So on nights when he is not on, it is not a guarantee I will get into a SP group. I have no problems using consumables (hell, I even still use them in almost every BT boss fight), the problem comes down to longer fights, like Brut or Council where you have to chose between a Haste Pot and a Mana Pot...thats the issue. Without any points in Efficiency (and not even 3/3 TotH for that matter), I see me choosing a Mana Pot more than a Haste Pot.
Again, my spec is built around my guild/raid. I HAVE to have 5/5 iHM because it makes the most sense right now. We have 2 other BM Hunters, and rather having both of them get it, I just have it since I am the "constant". I am already sacrificing some of my DPS by being Survival, giving up a little more to add even more to the Raid DPS and tank threat is more than worth it in my eyes. Im not saying that I do crappy DPS, im just saying that I dont always have the best group composition to make my DPS as high as you posted in your WWS. If you look at the number of shots we did, and the gear we have, it is *almost* an exact match. However when we compare group composition, thats where the big difference comes into play. And while are specs are different, I dont see 1 (or even 2) extra Rapid Fires and ~3% extra average crit from MT making a 300DPS difference.
I've looked through this thread and made some changes in my setup (thanks for all the info btw). Thanks to that, I've been able to produce some more dps (I'm kinda fresh to the whole survival thing), and more importantly use a "spam macro" again. I know many might frown on it, but I'm simply unable to lead raids properly when I have to time my shots.
When I specd surv, I got rid of all haste-proc stuff (DST and Imp. Hawk), and went with a 3:2 rotation. Yesterday I went back to it, and set up like this:
So, basically, 3:2, or 1:1 while I keep shift down.
I also installed "Power Auras" and configured it to show me a big shiny arrow whenever I get Quick Shots / Haste / Rapid Fire / Heroism. This way, whenever I get a haste effect, I press shift (the "turbo" button) and keep spamming. This simplifies things a lot and allows more attention to what's going on around.
I also drank some Haste Potions, and resulted with 1.9k dps on Gorefiend (in a group of me, BM, feral, shaman and random). I also noticed that on RoS, I was able to keep myself "hasted" for around 75% of the time. I'd probably get much better results if I was timing manually, although I'm pretty content with it. Point to note is I ended Theron at 78% mana (3:32 time), without mana pots but with JoW. I only have 1 point in TotH and none in Efficiency.
I understand that static haste is only valuable until a certain value (someone mentioned 90 haste rating), so I assume armor penetration is the way to go... I need to revisit ZA for those daggers until Shiv becomes available.
What bothers me most, is that I simply don't have time to calculate the exact ap/crit ratio I should be maintaining. My crit fully buffed goes to around 51% (1200 agi), and I'm unsure if this is the point when I should work on my rap. One thing I intend to do is replace Tsunami with MotB. What I look for is an estimated ratio most beneficial for 1:1 (60%) and 3:2 (40%).
I checked my fraps footage, and I forgot to Readiness a second time. I had just gotten Lust (and burn) so I guess I was concentrating on other things and flat out forgot. Regardless, while the extra Rapid(s) are great, I value the crit highly too.
With FD/Deterrence, I get where you're coming from with FD resists vs how many times will a Deterrence ever help a raid. With Readiness though, at least you have the option to Readiness->FD if needed (actually more like: FD resist -> "shit" -> Rapid Fire -> Readiness -> FD -> keep going. You loose a few effective seconds from the Rapid though). You could always drop 1 point in Survivalist to keep Deterrence + 2/2 Imp FD, or even a point in Surefooted if for some reason you're overloaded with hit gear.
In regards to your current spec, it's tempting to take points out of Efficiency put them into Master Tactician, or take points out of TotH and get 3 in Ranged Weapon Spec. I guess I'm a little biased, for example I ended Brutalis with ~85% mana, using multi/arcane/scorpid. On Felmyst I get pretty low, but dancing with skele's with viper on helps quite a bit. On Kalecgos I can usually make it to the end without a mana pot (I like to save pot cooldown for HP/shadow/restorative)
When it comes down to it, it's the old "damage vs mana" question that I believe many mana classes face. On any fight where you have enough mana, you should of gotten the damage talent. On any fight where the extra mana you gain could be used to perform extra (or different shots: eg steady->multi) shots to compensate for the damage loss, you should of gotten the mana talent.
The problem is, those two conditions that I wrote in italics have so many variables: favored rotation or macro, gear, encounter, roll in encounter, raid makeup, do your shamans drop tides for hunters or swap to caster groups, JoW uptime, etc.
Now, seeing as its pretty active and I just went Survival for guild purposes,I wanted some general
feedback from the community in here.Here is the report from last night's Gorefiend kill.
Strangely enough,my macro I use normally maintains a stable 1:1.5 rotation,but not that night.
Anyhow I was more wondering if at this stage my DPS are sufficient,because I think I can actually
pump out more,but this might be a residue I have from before when I was MM.
The macro I use is a /castsequence, with /cast Arcane Shot and Kill Command and LB in it too.
In the report the Steadies are 54, while the Autos are only 39 (and 19 arcanes).
My spec is a 0/28/33 hybrid.The buff tot he raid is significant(all melees got a substantial increase in
their output,and especially my friend Athkore(one of the BM hunters in the guild)
The group I ran last night with was a feral,resto shamy and 2 BM hunters(normally we also have a SP
that takes the place of the shamy or the druid,depending on the situation)
So, I most likely need a new weapon and maybe try a different macro? Or those numbers are what I should
expect with current state of gear/talents?
Truth is a question of point of view.
We all have our truths.
So I am wondering which tier 6 piece to keep wearing as my guild starts to kill shit in SP. All of the following are WAY better than t6 both in terms of damage, and in terms of the ammount of agility on them.
Mantle of Golden Forest is amazing (shoulder)
Starstalker Legguards are amazing (legs)
Bladed Chaos Tunic is amazing (chest)
Gloves of Immortal Dusk are amazing (hands)
That only leaves the helm slot to get the fourth piece of t6 from. The main problem I have with wearing t6 helm, is that it isn't really that good, aside from having 1-2 more agi than any other hat. Better off waiting for duplicitous guise, and wearing some other piece of tier 6?
Also, my guild doesnt do kael anymore, so I am not likely to ever see a Thalassian Wildercloak. Was planning to use cloak of fiends. Good choice?
-Thanks.
Last edited by DarkDisciple : 04/04/08 at 11:37 AM.
Reason: Addition
So I am wondering which tier 6 piece to keep wearing as my guild starts to kill shit in SP. All of the following are WAY better than t6 both in terms of damage, and in terms of the ammount of agility on them.
Mantle of Golden Forest is amazing (shoulder)
Starstalker Legguards are amazing (legs)
Bladed Chaos Tunic is amazing (chest)
Gloves of Immortal Dusk are amazing (hands)
That only leaves the helm slot to get the fourth piece of t6 from. The main problem I have with wearing t6 helm, is that it isn't really that good, aside from having 1-2 more agi than any other hat. Better off waiting for duplicitous guise, and wearing some other piece of tier 6?
Also, my guild doesnt do kael anymore, so I am not likely to ever see a Thalassian Wildercloak. Was planning to use cloak of fiends. Good choice?
-Thanks.
It seems like either the shoulders or the gloves will be worth keeping, based on my numbers.
Upgrade Shoulders: Gain 6 Agi, 22 AP, 28 Armor Ignore
Upgrade Legs: 20 Agi, 14 AP, 20 Hit for 19 Crit (not really an upgrade in my opinion, as you can swap the stat elsewhere) and 2!! Sockets.
Upgrade Gloves: -5 Agi, 18 Crit, 28 AP, 14 Armor Ignore, and a Socket.
Assuming 10Agi Sockets, it's 6 Agi 22 AP 28 Armor Ignore (Shoulders) vs 5 Agi 28 AP 14 Armor Ignore (Gloves). Looks like we'll be wearing giant eyeballs after all!
VERY SELECT is the key phrase here. I would not consider anything in which I loose more than 10agility to be "worth it". Going over some of the +haste items, the one I would consider to be the most "worth it" would be:
Would also be ok, however you have to consider you still need to have 4piece T6 to get the bonus and that the 2 Leather items will probably get priority to Rogues/Feral Druids over you.
I personally havent seen ANY of those Sunwell items drop yet and we have fully cleared the first 3 bosses 2x so far. So im not in any real rush to start stacking up on haste gear yet.
I agree in that you will need to actually test the haste out based on your particular situation (lag, event, computer graphics etc).
When doing my modeling I found [Hard Khorium Band] - 28 Haste and [Shivering Felspine] - 53 Haste to be ideal. As much haste as I could equip while still allowing some room for error.
Scorpid sting (and to a lesser extent, being the Mark hunter) hurts dps by a fair chunk. I dont see how I'm going to get around this though... I am the Survival Hunter after all. The extra GCD every ~20 seconds, and trying to fit it into a manual 1:1.5 really threw me off. I've only been doing 1:1.5 for around a month or two when I specced Survival.
If you have a tight rotation already and cannot find a good location to squeeze in Scorpid or Hunter's Mark without screwing up your rotation, another option is to replace arcane or multishot casts with these casts. I realize that it is a loss of personal DPS to do so, but not having HM up is a bigger personal and raid DPS (especially if its improved) and not having Scorpid Sting up on bosses where its needed hurts the raid by taxing the healers more and maybe wiping. And screwing up your rotation can possibly be a bigger DPS loss. I do not know which is better for you, replacing shots or trying to squeeze in and clipping shots, without analyzing your Webstats, which I unfortunatley can't do at the moment. However, I just wanted to throw out this alternative for you.
Originally Posted by Intermission
I was looking at other guild's WWS logs, and wow, its embarrassing how bad some other hunters are. Sub 1400 dps as Survival and sub 1700 as BM seem all too common... absolutely terrible even if you're in group 6 on your OWN, let alone some of those hunters having Lust/Agi/LotP!!
I do not know which guilds' logs you looked at and their progression, but in general 1400 DPS as survival is not bad. It is bad for a fully endgame geared hunter against relatively squishy targets. But it is not bad for hunters in guilds that are relatively new to T6 content and do not have anything close to end-game gear yet and that are battling tougher bosses.
If you were referring to logs of Brutalis attempts, then I definitely agree those numbers are low. That is either people not performing well or who really shouldn't ideally be trying him yet. I know that I won't be doing attempts on him anytime soon since neither myself or my guild are sufficiently progressed enough.
So I am wondering which tier 6 piece to keep wearing as my guild starts to kill shit in SP. All of the following are WAY better than t6 both in terms of damage, and in terms of the ammount of agility on them.
Mantle of Golden Forest is amazing (shoulder)
Starstalker Legguards are amazing (legs)
Bladed Chaos Tunic is amazing (chest)
Gloves of Immortal Dusk are amazing (hands)
That only leaves the helm slot to get the fourth piece of t6 from. The main problem I have with wearing t6 helm, is that it isn't really that good, aside from having 1-2 more agi than any other hat. Better off waiting for duplicitous guise, and wearing some other piece of tier 6?
Also, my guild doesnt do kael anymore, so I am not likely to ever see a Thalassian Wildercloak. Was planning to use cloak of fiends. Good choice?
-Thanks.
My analysis showed that basically the choice is to either keep the T6 shoulders and use Gloves of Immortal Dusk, or keep the T6 Gloves & use the Mantle of the Golden Forest. The rest of the gear selection is fairly obvious.
In Cheeky's I got better DPS using T6 Shoulders + Gloves of Immortal Dusk than using T6 Gloves + Mantle of the GF
This is assuming you can get the Leather Helm off Illidan. If you cannot obtain that then yes, it might be smart to wear the T6 Helm as your 4th piece.
Cloak of Fiends is a good choice if you cannot get Kael cloak... I passed the CoF a while back to an offspec and now I'm thinking it was a mistake because we don't do Kael anymore either.
I'm not sure what you mean that my unhasted macro is not a true 1:1.5 macro, but if i'm correct, you mean that i have Steady Shot in the /castrandom part of the macro? This was a mistake from my part. Usually i have Steady Shot in the /cast part of the macro. Sorry about the confusion.
Yes, the fix that you made to your macro listing is better; however, it still is not a true 1:1.5 implementation, which should be:
auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady (the multi and arcane can be switched in priority)
Your macro with the /castrandom multishot, arcane shot does not enforce the 1:1.5. When it gets to that line it will cast the higher priority one of those that is available regardless of whether it is the ideal location for a special. It can cast multishot and arcane shot after successive steadies, causing an unideal rotation and DPS loss from that ideal.
Here is an example from your log:
20:15'19.734 Idrin's Auto Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2294 Physical damage
20:15'21.234 Idrin's Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 1993 Physical damage
20:15'21.890 Idrin's Multi-Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2454 Physical damage
20:15'22.375 Idrin's Auto Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2165 Physical damage
20:15'24.250 Idrin's Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2136 Physical damage
20:15'24.312 Idrin's Arcane Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2311 Arcane damage
20:15'25.375 Idrin's Auto Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2235 Physical damage
20:15'27.265 Idrin's Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 856 Physical damage
20:15'27.843 Idrin's Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 875 Physical damage
20:15'29.390 Idrin's Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2143 Physical damage
Now I am not saying not to use that macro, I am only saying that it doesn't implement the ideal 1:1.5 rotation and that you should be aware of it. As far as macros go, I have tried out many and have not found an ideal one that works all the time (if someone has the magic macro that works for all situations please share). The only macros that I have found that reliably can perform the ideal 1:1.5 rotation are castsequence macros, which we know can have their own set of problems and which are not too flexible with haste. The benefit of your macro is that it is flexible with haste effects and will perform additional auto-steadies between specials when hasted.
After trying many macros myself, I have personally decided to generally use a /cast !auto /cast steady macro and hand-weave the arcane and multishots. This seems to work best for me since I use that same auto-steady macro under haste effects as well. However, in fights, like Archimode, that require more situational awareness of what is going on around me and during which hand-weaving is too distracting. I do use a similar macro as you use since its the most flexible, although not ideal.
Why immortal night legs not starstalker? I will be putting in 3x 10 agi gems either way, and starstalker have 57 base agi as compared to 45 (including socket bonus) on night. On cheeky's, the damage increase from starstalker to immortal night is only about 12.
Also, the illidan hat is amazing for BM, but why for survival? Lots of points wasted on hit, and relatively low agi. Am I focusing too much on maxing agi for EW and not enough on my own dps I guess?
Assembled the following list based on recommendations and what is likely to be available to me. Hopefully someday the legendary bow will be an option but that is a long way off. Not aiming for enough haste to do a clean 3:2, just enough to make the 1:1.5 nice and tidy.
Why immortal night legs not starstalker? I will be putting in 3x 10 agi gems either way, and starstalker have 57 base agi as compared to 45 (including socket bonus) on night. On cheeky's, the damage increase from starstalker to immortal night is only about 12.
Also, the illidan hat is amazing for BM, but why for survival? Lots of points wasted on hit, and relatively low agi. Am I focusing too much on maxing agi for EW and not enough on my own dps I guess?
Assembled the following list based on recommendations and what is likely to be available to me. Hopefully someday the legendary bow will be an option but that is a long way off. Not aiming for enough haste to do a clean 3:2, just enough to make the 1:1.5 nice and tidy.
I'd definitely drop the Tsunami Talisman for a Berserker's Call, since the hit on it is completely useless (you're already at 127 hit when the cap is 95). I'm questioning the value of the Had Khorium Band versus the ZA Ring since Armor Ignore scales so well, but I think you're pretty close.
Edit: wow... if you add in the ZA ring, you'll be running a static 1925 Armor Ignore- not sure exactly what the established armor values for bosses are after sunders/recklessness/etc, but that's gotta be close to 0 armor?
I'd definitely drop the Tsunami Talisman for a Berserker's Call, since the hit on it is completely useless (you're already at 127 hit when the cap is 95). I'm questioning the value of the Had Khorium Band versus the ZA Ring since Armor Ignore scales so well, but I think you're pretty close.
Edit: wow... if you add in the ZA ring, you'll be running a static 1925 Armor Ignore- not sure exactly what the established armor values for bosses are after sunders/recklessness/etc, but that's gotta be close to 0 armor?
My calculations (with ZA ring) say 1862, but still very high. Still a ways from 0 boss armor. Also, I can't wear a ZA ring that doesn't drop.
Last edited by DarkDisciple : 04/04/08 at 7:21 PM.
If you have a tight rotation already and cannot find a good location to squeeze in Scorpid or Hunter's Mark without screwing up your rotation, another option is to replace arcane or multishot casts with these casts. I realize that it is a loss of personal DPS to do so, but not having HM up is a bigger personal and raid DPS (especially if its improved) and not having Scorpid Sting up on bosses where its needed hurts the raid by taxing the healers more and maybe wiping. And screwing up your rotation can possibly be a bigger DPS loss. I do not know which is better for you, replacing shots or trying to squeeze in and clipping shots, without analyzing your Webstats, which I unfortunatley can't do at the moment. However, I just wanted to throw out this alternative for you.
Thats an idea I didnt think of. It would certainly make everything feel a bit more normal. I still think just squeezing them in would be better though, I just need to do it... better, heh. Previously I only ever really Scorpid on things like: Bloodboil fel enrage, Illidan from warlock to warrior tank swap (after the MD), 10% Mother enrage, Demon on Kalecgos, and dragon/demon during enrage, etc. Any fight which required 100% sting our old Survival would do it.
I do not know which guilds' logs you looked at and their progression, but in general 1400 DPS as survival is not bad. It is bad for a fully endgame geared hunter against relatively squishy targets. But it is not bad for hunters in guilds that are relatively new to T6 content and do not have anything close to end-game gear yet and that are battling tougher bosses.
If you were referring to logs of Brutalis attempts, then I definitely agree those numbers are low. That is either people not performing well or who really shouldn't ideally be trying him yet. I know that I won't be doing attempts on him anytime soon since neither myself or my guild are sufficiently progressed enough.
Halleluljah @ Jander here http://elitistjerks.com/697191-post1457.html I also felt sorry for the treatment Kurkis got when posting his DPS. The dissenters were mostly Somerandomidiot and Vasilii which is why I have tried to get the /cast macro discussion going again.
Just to reiterate what many people have been saying SV raiding does NOT have a 1 size fits all solution, unfortunately. We all really need to take ourselves off to Boom or even better Badlands and do our own testing. This needs to be done on a regular basis as variables seam to affect the use /cast macros on an individual basis.
At least discussion is going down the right path, some really top notch opinions getting posted. Lets start by answering Sore82's obvious and blatant downer on using a 2:1 Rotation for the "Basis" of DPS. An opinion also shared by Somerandomidiot. The whole point of using 2:1 is that you don't even need to ever look at your hasted state! The macro does it for you automatically.
Originally Posted by Sore82
@Tiberium
Ive tried the 2:1 rotation, and as you can see, the results did not favor it at all. So let me ask you some questions to figure out what I did wrong.
1) How do you compensate for the macro getting "stuck" shooting Auto Shot? Where it fire 1-5 EXTRA Steady Shots BEFORE getting off the Auto Shot. This problem only occurs while NOT Hasted. When I use Rapid Fire ora Haste Pot, this is not an issue (which is why BM Hunters do not have as much of an issue with it).
2) Having a Wind Serpent's LB attack or Kill Command in the 2:1 code seems to make Auto Shot getting stuck even worse. Have you experienced this and is it worth it NOT to use either of those abilities?
3) I have actuaily talked with Kurkis. And he stated something very different to me than what you are saying. Here is a snipit of what he said:
"On Kaz'Rogal last week I did like 2288 DPS or something. I basically run with Haste Pot, Rapid Fire, Rapid Fire, Heroism which is a large portion of the fight where I am capable of doing a 1:1 rotation. A chunk of time will go by where I am doing a 1.5:1 rotation until potion cool downs are back and then by then the fight is usually over."
So im a little confused, I see you saying one thing, and then another person, who you use as a reference, say another.
Your general opening comment that your tests did not favour using a 2:1 rotation at all is all too common. To switch to using a 2:1 unfortunately isn't just a question of changing macros and BINGO. You have to work at it. For a start to get the best from the 2:1 you would need to respec to 20//41 or even 7//20//34. Your spec would be wasted using 2:1 as IAS and or barrage simply arn't needed. Also trinkets would need to be changed, eg both [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] and [Dragonspine Trophy] become awsome pieces using the /cast macro and 2:1 rotation.
Question 1) How to compensate for the macro "chaining" Steadys? There are 3 common ways to avoid this annoying phenomana.
i) Use the triple tap method. Using Quartz or similar you simply double tap your hotkey near the end of a steady cast then tap again imediately after the cast. This becomes second nature after using the macro for a while.
ii) Use a G15 keyboard or link mousewheel to staedy spam. The keyboard solution still has varied best settings. Some people say 5 inputs per second is great others say upto 20 inputs per second is optimal. Try for yorself if you use a G15.
iii) The final one is the one I use and was suggested by Quiggyb ages ago here.
Originally Posted by QuiggyB
I noticed the /cast !auto shot /cast steady shot macro chaining steadys too. What has been working for me is the following:
Basically turning the second /cast into aa /castsequence of one thing. This has been working pretty much perfectly and does a better job of dropping itself down to 1:1 while I am hasted. It also works fine with a kill command on top of everything,
No further explanation needed.
Question 2) Having a Wind Serpent's LB attack or Kill Command in the 2:1 code seems to make Auto Shot getting stuck even worse?
Firstly you can always include the LB line in your macro without detrimental effect. Kill command is completely different as it does indeed push back the Auot cast start to the point where "chaining" steadys increases. However the only solution that I have ever found is by using a /castsequence of one command, in this case Steady Shot. I personally add the Kill Command using a /castrandom line. But by all means try it out for yourself.
Question 3) I have actuaily talked with Kurkis. And he stated something very different to me than what you are saying?
This is perhaps the most annoying comment you have posted. If you have spoken to Kurkis and you noted he did 2288 DPS using the /cast macro you don't need me to tell you how he did it. But I strongly suggest you do a search of Kurkis's posts here in this thread. You will see EXACTLY how he does 2288 DPS by reading the thread and not asking me to tell you again. Actually I will let you have a snipit of how he does it just to save you the bother of looking it up.
Originally Posted by Kurkis
The concept on how I play a Survival hunter is pretty simple.
BM hunters are the DPS powers that they are because they have 20% haste and a pet that does a good chunk of their damage. The idea here is to keep yourself hasted as much as you can during the fight so that you can run a solid 1:1 rotation allowing the benefits you get as a Survival hunter to help close the gap between Survival/MM damage and BM damage.
I generally do every fight this way - We pull and you have 15-25 seconds where the tank is building aggro, the mob is being put into position. During this time I am using a Steady, Steady, Auto rotation and I throw in Multi-Shots and Arcanes when my Auto shot lets me. Before anyone screams I will clobber auto-shots doing this and the world will end because of it, I don't care.
It is my opinion that a Feral Druid and Enhancement Shaman are the 2 most important things to have in your group as a Survival hunter. With that said both the druid and the shaman as well as myself have drums of battle.
After these 15-25 seconds are up the Shaman will pop Heroism and drums (45 seconds), Rapid Fire (15 seconds) when Heroism fades and then Readiness/Rapid Fire (15 seconds) again. At this point we are 95-100 seconds total into the fight and 75 of those seconds I am hasted. During the second Rapid Fire I make the decision to either haste pot or fel mana pot.
There are 2x when I will not do this. First being Kaz'rogal where I till take a Fel mana pot about 10 seconds into the fight so I can get as much mana back as I can at the beginning (even if I waste some of the fel mana pot) so that hopefully near the end of the fight I can sneak in a Super Mana pot. This doesn't always work but I try. The other acception to that rule is on Illidari Council where I Fel Mana pot the entire time and generally have to use Aspect of the Viper no more then about 30 seconds.
Generally, I take a haste pot after the 2nd Rapid Fire giving me a total of 1 1/2 minutes of being hasted running a 1:1 rotation. During that period of time I've pretty much just destroyed the mob and with running over a 50% crit w/ Master Tact up for a large portion of that time the crits are glorious.
We are now ruffly 110-115 seconds into the fight and all of your 'controlled' haste is done. By this time your numbers are going to be pretty good as long as you aren't bad at the game and you need to just run out the clock. You've got 1.5 - 2 minutes left in the fight. I will simply go back to Steady, Steady, Auto, and toss in more specials when I can. If DST procs and drums are running I can go back to 1:1. During the end all I am trying to do is sustain the damage.
My results are what I have posted. My rotation really is not as close to 1:1 as it looks on the shot chart. There are a few stray Auto-Shots that go during the course of the fight that cut the gap between Steady and Auto down. As you can clearly see though I favor Steady shot.
To address the Foam Finger Fans who will say you should do it differently... I do it this way and it works for me. There is more then one way to skin a cat and if you are having success as a Survival hunter or MM for that matter then indeed you should post your WWS and take us through how you play your character in the fight so that we can become more educated, thus allowing us all to improve our play.
Before I end my wall of text I'm going to give you guys all a free pro tip - Get Drums of Battle.
Unless you are one of your guilds main (insert profession here) there is really no excuse to not have atleast 350 LW as one of your professions. With that, the more drummers you have in the raid the higher your raids DPS is. In my guild we have something like 16 active drummers. Think about that.
So yes he throws in some random Arcanes and Multis when mana and or situation allows, nonetheless the basis of DPS is using a /cast macro and 2:1 rotation.
Now then the next issue that intrigues me about 1 to 1:5 users is that of mana. If you have mana issues, which you say you do, why the hell wouldn't you use 2:1? Using the 2:1 rotation is a MINIMUM 35% more mana efficient than a full 1 to 1:5 Arcane Multi rotation. See many posters for refs. Or better still try a 120 second test on Boom with your spec and then try 2:1 and simply note your mana bar % after both tests.
Now some folks seam to doubt that the 2:1 can do 6 shots in 6 seconds. Well to be frank screw the theorycraft on this one. Off to boom again. Remove any haste proccing gear. Time a 120 second test using hunters mark. Use Recount to give a shot count. I usually get 79 Steady Shots and 39 Autos. Damn near close enough to one shot per second for me thank you very much.
I personally do this every week to ensure macro is still functioning correctly.
I actually say screw the theory craft as to why the /cast macro works and why it can deliver 1 shot per second average with very good reason. As of this moment in time nobody actually knows how the macro works, not even Cheeky....
Originally Posted by Cheeky
Auto Shot still has its own, independent cast time. What happens in steady-spam macros is that there is a disconnect between your GCD (client) and actual casts (server) where there is the ability to squeeze out 2 Steady Shots in less than 1.5s total time. I also believe Auto Shot's cast time is being effected by haste (like any other cast) and going off faster than 0.5s.
But I have seen no evidence that the cast time is simultaneous with Steady Shot. If so, you basically have non-interfering shots, the holy grail of Hunter mechanics.
And then my armory link: Vallerian - EU - Azshara (If theres the riding Crop on: I use Hourglass and Bloodlust during raids)
I recently changed some gear and finally hit 911 Agility unbuffed with 33,86% Crit and 2340 AP (with Hawk on).
During raids I find myself somewhere at places 1-6...depending on the encounter! (Archimonde is not quite hunter friendly -.-)
Until two days ago I used a 1:1.X Steady/Auto/Arcane Macro, but now I also use Multi-Shot (Rank1 because of mana efficiency and missing points in barrage). I have a G15 for my Macros...
I would like to link a WWS report but I can't persuade others in my guild to use WWS, too so according to the WWS FAQ the results would not be accurate...and I'm not very experienced with WWS :/
If I get one (tomorrow perhaps) I`ll post it!
After discussing some things in the help me thread, I already got Belt of Deep Shadow and switched Drake Fang Talisman for Bloodlust Brooch...
But I would like to improve my hunter much more if possible...so it would be nice if you could share your thoughts with me, any help is very appreciated!
If you need anything else, feel free to ask...I'll give you any information you need
But I would like to improve my hunter much more if possible...so it would be nice if you could share your thoughts with me, any help is very appreciated!
Hi, a couple thoughts for you.
1) Your gear for the most part looks good; however, one thing popped out. You have great gear like the Bow-Stiched Leggings, but then you are wearing the T4 helm. Until something better for you drops, I would suggest trying to get the arena 3 helms you are in arena teams. It is an awesome helm for survival hunters. I still wear it myself at 4/5 MH and 3/9 BT.
2) Another gear suggestion until you get better. You are wearing the Choker of Vile Intent to get hit rating. A better neck that is esasily attainable is the Necklace of the Deep that you can have a JC craft for you and then put in 2 agility gems. You will lose 14 HR that way, but you could make that up with replacing your gloves with the badge gloves (Gauntlets of Sniping). This would actually result with you being 5 HR above the cap.
3) Another item to explore is that unless you are very good at switching your rotations under the affect of IAotH, a 7/21/33 build may not be ideal. It is more ideal for someone who has the gear to do a 2:1 rotation unhasted and is using a cast macro that scales automatically with the haste. I am not saying do not use this build if it works for you, but I would suggest some builds that may be better for you since you are using a 1:1.5 rotation currently. My preferrence is the 0/20/41 build since I am a fan of Readiness for raids. Another good option to try out now that you are using multishot is a Barrage build such as 0/28/33. Posts in this thread provide good examples of each. There are also valid options between the two. Check them out and see what works best for you.
1) Your gear for the most part looks good; however, one thing popped out. You have great gear like the Bow-Stiched Leggings, but then you are wearing the T4 helm. Until something better for you drops, I would suggest trying to get the arena 3 helms you are in arena teams. It is an awesome helm for survival hunters. I still wear it myself at 4/5 MH and 3/9 BT.
2) Another gear suggestion until you get better. You are wearing the Choker of Vile Intent to get hit rating. A better neck that is esasily attainable is the Necklace of the Deep that you can have a JC craft for you and then put in 2 agility gems. You will lose 14 HR that way, but you could make that up with replacing your gloves with the badge gloves (Gauntlets of Sniping). This would actually result with you being 5 HR above the cap.
3) Another item to explore is that unless you are very good at switching your rotations under the affect of IAotH, a 7/21/33 build may not be ideal. It is more ideal for someone who has the gear to do a 2:1 rotation unhasted and is using a cast macro that scales automatically with the haste. I am not saying do not use this build if it works for you, but I would suggest some builds that may be better for you since you are using a 1:1.5 rotation currently. My preferrence is the 0/20/41 build since I am a fan of Readiness for raids. Another good option to try out now that you are using multishot is a Barrage build such as 0/28/33. Posts in this thread provide good examples of each. There are also valid options between the two. Check them out and see what works best for you.
First of all: Thank you very much for these thoughts!
1) I'm working on that
2) Wouldn't that decrease personal DPS?
3) What kind of Macro would that be and what kind of gear would be necessary?
The Barrage build seems very nice...especcialy due to the 12% more damage to multi and 3% from range weapon specc...but theres also the question of mana...due to the loss of IAotH the mana usage would increase or am I wrong?
The 0/20/41 specc with or without readiness...well...I always thought of it as a dps loss...^^
I like the heavy support a SV hunter means for the raid but I still want to do my part of the dmg...and I want to do it really well ^^
Thanks for your post Tiberium, particularly the "how do I stop chain steadies" part. Many times I've been wanting to use that for various reasons (no-thinking needed, mana efficiency), but simply would not work.
I'll give those methods a shot and post any results.
edit: the results.
Unfortunately, I think the /castsequence line is not a magic cure for the chain-steady problem. Macro's used:
I hunters marked Dr Boom and instantly held down my g15 macro at 25 cycles per second (DOWN - 0.02 delay - UP - 0.02 delay). When the hunters mark faded I instantly turned around/jumped to stop all shots. I recored the number of autoshots/steadyshots per test. I did each test twice, results seperated by a /.
As you can see, the /castsequence is not firing shots as fast. It also did not completely prevent steady-chaining, as I saw it steady-chain once in each test. The /cast /cast method also chain-steadied, 3 times in one test and twice in another.
The notable thing about the /cast /castsequence macro is what Big Trouble displayed on it's "autoshot-clip-timer". For those who have not used BigTrouble before, it's autoshot bar will show you how long each autoshot clip/clobber is. Naturally, the /cast /cast and /cast /castsequence macros clip every auto by a significant amount in order to get another steady in. The difference between the two though is substantial.
The average /cast /cast clip was around 0.6 seconds. There were a few from 0.4 to 0.8, with the very odd 0.3 and up to 1.0. When an autoshot was missed (chain-steady) the clip meter reaches 1.9, 3.2, etc.
The average /cast /castsequence clip was around 0.9 seconds. The lowest was 0.7, but most fell within 0.9 to 1, some were up to 1.2. In addition to this meter, it's also fires the second steady shot visually slower than /cast /cast, which explains why it clips more. Second steadyshot denoted below with *'s.
So in conclusion, the /castsequence line shoots the second steadyshot slower than /cast. I suppose this may be because "/casts" can take advantage of server-side queue, whereas "/castsequence" cannot, even though it is only casting one ability. The slower second cast pushes back the autoshot that follows, meaning a longer total shot cycle time, in turn meaning less shots per minute. Also, it did not eradicate steady-chaining for me either. The reason why it seems to reduce steady-chaining and drop to 1:1 easier is because it's firing at a slower rate.
PS: this is all at Dr Boom, real raid use will increase steady-chaining also.
PPS: I went to Blasted Lands to test shots per min using manual 1:1.5, but first I tried /cast/cast and /cast/castsequence there too. I got 6 steadies in a row using /cast/castsequence =(
PPS: Infact most autoshots get missed. It looks like this (with both macros): auto steadyx4 auto steadyx2 auto steady x3 auto steadyx6 auto steady x2 auto steadyx4 auto steadyx3 etc.
I dont know why it's so much more than Dr Boom. My macro does not include Kill Command or Lightning Breath.
I guess manual is still the go.
Last edited by Intermission : 04/06/08 at 1:55 AM.
I was testing this macro this morning as well(I've been holding against macros and finally decided to give it a shot)
I was binding the macro to mouse wheel.
3.0 speed weapon, 0 haste, 400~600ms latency
Auto - steady was
31:70
31:66
32:70
29:69
The steady chaining was very serious. I'm wondering if it's that I need to get a more "professional" mouse or is it my abysmal connection.
Any suggestions?
P.S. Interesting thing was, even with the chain steadies, the resulting dps was still on par with manual waiving 1:1.5 without T6x4 nor Ashentongue. I suppose 2:1 is much more latency resistant than 1:1.5?
04/03/08, 11:26 PM
because we don't do Kael anymore either.
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