Passive Haste would refer to Haste that is not timed or has a cooldown. Meaning that its on your gear. The 80 Haste you get from Drums is a Buff. Between 70-80 passive haste is what most people are aiming for right now to start with, as it would be the equivelant of having Drums up all the time, and makes rotations more effective. This can easily be achieved right now through Sunwell gear, at a very minimal loss of other stats.

I still get some steady chains, but i've tested it a few times and the damage done by KC is greater than the damage i lose form an occasional missed auto. I play on a mac, so the G15 is not an option, so i bind it to 6 keys, and roll three fingers from each hand over them. The actual macro is a two-part macro.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Lightning Breath(Rank 6)
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

and

#showtooltip Kill Command
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Steady still chains sometimes, but for some reason it seems to chain less when KC is on another button being pushed by the spammed macro.

Sorry for the delayed response, i've been out with my family today and got home just in time for raiding. I'll check back and try to answer the questions more thoroughly after tonight's raid in a few hours.

i'm just curious as to what would be the best shot rotation for a 0/20/41 specced hunter. I've been trying different ones throughout my raiding experience, yet i have yet to find the 'best one' i was curious as to what would be the best way to up my DPS.

My armory for the best upgrades, i know my bow sucks. The World of Warcraft ArmoryI am accecting all criticism

Well you didnt pick the highest bunch of survival hunters. I got 1947 with scorpid / mana pots / 260 latency / plus a few noticeable rotation errors (mainly due to scorpiding/HM). I also saw a survival hunter with 2120ish when I was browsing around last week. Next week I hope to do ~2150. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, I'm just saying that with a manual rotation that I did *without* those detriments I listed, 2.1+ is attainable, especially if I had a second lust and some drums. However with a macro it would be impossible for me, my macro even chains when Rapid Fire or DST is up.


I'm mainly interested in your latency, Uday, if you could share that with us please. I've proved that more haste does not reduce steady chaining (for me anyway) so perhaps there is a latency threshold where the server side queue window on the third steadyshot is smaller than the autoshot "cast time". edit: One more thing please mate, when your DST procs does your macro change to a 1:1 or a 3:2? Mine stays at 2:1 (or 3:1-4:1, resulting in the autoshot arriving ~2-3 seconds late) despite the extra haste. Cheers.


@ Kurkis' posts:

Many people know and have been trying to use that macro, there is no doubt it does similar dps (some may argue better) than a perfect timed manual rotation, in addition to having better mana efficiency, and not having to have good hunter timing.

Instead of arguing that it's better/worse, lets try to figure out what makes it actually work or chain and how/why it happens, so more than 2 SV hunters in the world can use it.

My latency is usually around 75-85

Also, the double heroism was more like 1.3 heroisms. One of our shamans messed up his timing.

Also note that I resisted my burn, and another hunter kept up scorpid. The only thing I had to worry about was mark.

DST was staying 2:1, until I thew on the haste cloak. Now it's 3:2

Well so far I've gathered that you need the normal "BM macro" and additional macro for KC to not chain steady shots (trouble for only some people).

To make 7/20/33 function well you need:

DST
50-65 passive haste. This is where it becomes tricky as it's always personal and you have to test what works for you to get 3:2
Group with lots of drums to make quick shots + passive haste + drums combo drop your weapon speed near 2.0

To get 3:2 with 20 or 25 clicks per second macro speed you usually need something between 2.0 to 2.07 weapon speed depending on your latency.

PS. WTB DST with badges.

True story. You need the haste on Steady so that there is enough GCD time between steady shots for the auto shot to fire.

In regards to the two macro set up- I've noticed fewer lock ups since using it, but I still chain steady shots sometimes. It only seems to happen when I'm at low enough haste that I should be producing a 2:1 ratio, and it will sometimes do four steadies in a row. This effectively skips one auto in the 2:1 rotation. It happens about once a minute when I've tested it, and the amount of damage from kill command more than makes up for the missing auto shot.

Since it only happens when I should be doing 2:1, and I never had this problem as BM (or at least never noticed it) I am thinking that it's simply a result of too little haste on the steady shot not leaving enough GCD time for the auto shot to fire. If I can ever get a JC or LW pattern to drop in Sunwell I'll run some tests with more passive haste.

http://http://wowwebstats.com/2s1nhrmfwkuy5?s=8263-8609

Survival Hunter
BM Hunter
Prot Warrior
Resto Shaman
Feral Druid

1 Heroism, Owl Pet - No Scorpid Sting

Ran as 7/20/34

Nice one. You use the macro you posted earlier I assume. My quick napkin math tells me you chained quite a few autos still. 5:41 length fight, assume 5 second pull, and 10 sec worth of spell pushback from Slash (and no burn), its around 325 seconds long. You did 74 autoshots for an autoshot frequency of (EDIT I forgot the crits dont show on WWS unless you open up the bar): 2.39 seconds, so yeah, very little if any chaining.

Using the split macros I was chaining steady shots all night having a lot of 3:1 and 4:1. I did not have DST or iAotH so it might be better with those. The macro is to be spammed right? If only I could have the consistancy of /castsequence and the auto-ajusting of /cast... or if Blizzard could stop being moron and actually unlink auto shot and abilities... my damage right now is awful and makes me look like a retard that don't understand his class, this is really frustrating.

I'm still not sold on the "need enough haste for steady/GCD to work properly" idea. Because I certainly chain *A LOT* while DST and IAotH is up, as well as Lust and Rapid Fire.

Hey, it's Rylai.
That parse is a bit weak for me actually, it was getting to the end of the night and I had no haste pots left to use.
I also don't have a DST, and I was running scorpid.

Zero heroisms used on me as well, just my own drums buffing.
Group buffs were GoA + LotP.

Just to give more context to the picture, if you're using that number as a baseline for anything.

ok. I tested the same macro that Uday had in use, 7/20/34 talent build and I have DST. Using 2.9 speed gun with 31 passive haste. I had latency between 180-230 during the fight and fps as per usual 5-8.

Group setup was:
SV hunter
BM hunter
Feral druid
Resto shaman
warrior

WWS at Azgalor

With the tactic we use it is pure stand and nuke fight. Macro does chain steady shots now and then when no haste proc is active but in the end it results close 3:2 rotation. OK, no pet in use there but I got same results at Rage Winterchill with both KC and LB on the macro.

Ok, some things to say....

First, about cast/cast macro. I belive you guys read your latency wrong. Here's the results of dr. boom tests I made:

1. tested late at night / early in the morning. Latency reads 45ms
Cast/cast macro, with no chain cast, perfect scaling from 2:1 through 1.5:1 to 1:1 depending on haste.

2. tested between 18:00 and 19:00. Latency reads 70ms
Occasional chain casts (up to 4). Scaling to 1:1 on any haste (wierd).

Now here's what I noticed. I use Quartz, and it's configured to show latency. The latency you read normally is average, Quatz can show you the momentary latency. During "peek hours", my momentary latency can change between 15ms and 300ms from one steady to another. What I observed is, if my momentary latency goes up to more than 150ms, I start chain casting. What's important to remember, is that my average latency displayed in UI stays at 70ms. I would assume, that if you can't keep your momentary latency below 150 ms (ofc dependant on haste), cast/cast macro will just not be valid. The reason for this is probably that the momentary latency pushes auto outside GCD and spamming macro results in another steady cast. Sadly, it seems cast/cast just won't work for me.

About adding the /cast !auto shot line: my observations show, that this in fact helps a bit on the momentary latency thing, but not much. I would assume, that it can clip auto around 0.1sec faster in some cases, but it is heavily based on momentary latency.

----------------------

Now about what Kurkis says: with DST/QS/RF/Haste Pots, I seem to be able to maintain "hasted state" around 75-80% of the time. Seeing as 1.5:1 rotation just doesn't seem to work for my latency, I think that 1:1 is in fact the most latency-independant way to go. For now, I am using 3:2 / 1:1, but the 75-80% hasted time (that's without heroism) just suggests that I should stack up on haste and drop 3:2 altogether. Going 1:1 not only does seem more latency-indepenant, but also makes upgrade choices easier. The only hard moment is to decide, how much haste is enough for 1:1 to do same dps as 3:2 without it.

Still, for those who have perfect flat latency, 2:1/1.5:1/1:1 in armor pen. gear will probably provide much better results.

I normally raid survival for my guild with a 0/28/33 spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. I noticed a 0/21/40 build provided ~5 more personal DPS with a loss of 17 agi(4AP on EW) but my crit is 37% unbuffed as my hybrid and I don't see master tactician being that beneficial.

But recently I just feel I am doing sub-par DPS in my role. A link to my armory is The World of Warcraft Armory. My shot rotation is a /castsequence as follows:

/castsequence reset=5 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=target, exists] Lightning Breath

I have a couple questions. I have been tossing the stats in my head and I believe [Bristleblitz Striker] will give me a larger personal DPS increase over [Legionkiller] than the raid DPS loss with the loss of 6 AP from EW. Also, Cheeky's spreadsheet shows this shot rotation giving the best DPS but I am wondering if in-game experience has brought out a superior rotation/macro.
Pretty much, is this macro/rotation the best DPS if not what are other suggestions and reasons why your rotation is/would be better from a pure damage POV.
My guild has had several sub 10% kalecgos attempts and we will be working on Brutallus soon so I want to make sure I am doing the best DPS possible as survival.

If needed: Wow Web Stats.
On a side note, I did not have 4pcs T6 at the time of this WWS nor was I LW.

Now here is a real question. I don't know how to bind my macro so that I can hold down a button and it auto repeat, and my mouse is super basic. I normaly press the hotkey around 2-4 times/second. How hard/fast should I be mashing/spamming? I know latency matters, but is there a benchmark for say 140ms?

Here is a parse from last night: Wow Web Stats

Gonk did 1990. That's with 100% drum uptime and 2 lusts in a BM/BM/SV/Resto Sham/Feral group.

This is very impressive results, but look at all the chaining: Wow Web Stats

I count 6 chains of 3 or 4 steadys in a row on just the first page (~2 min).

Maybe there is something else going on that the theory doesn't account for. It seems that a lot of people are getting very good results even with significant chaining. I've tried every one of these macros and always chain, so I've never used them on a boss. I will attempt it on Illidari Council tonight to see what I get even with all the chaining.

Non-macro question here (yay handweavers!).

In an effort to achieve balance between Agi and my personal DPS, I'm trying to figure out a general rule to use when looking at possible upgrades. Basically, how much DPS should I sacrifice for an increase to Agility?

Say an item gives me +1 Agi. We'll assume 100% EW uptime and 8 physical DPS classes in the raid.

Raid DPS/1 Agi = 1 Agi * 1.15 (Lightning Reflexes) * 0.25 AP/Agi (EW) * 1 (DPS/class)/14 AP * 8 classes = 0.16 DPS/Agi

In essence, it's saying that increasing my DPS by 1 is equivalent to increasing my Agility by 6.25... which seems kinda low to me.

Example:
Using my current gear and Cheeky's SS with my handweaved 1:1.5 rotation, [Gronnstalker's Boots] would be considered a considerable upgrade over [Quickstrider Moccasins] (using [Delicate Crimson Spinel] in all sockets) because I'd be gaining 13 DPS at the cost of 9 Agi. Using the above formula, a 13 DPS gain would balance out a 78 Agi loss. Does that sound right to you? Because it doesn't sound right to me.

Hello,

I've been reading this post for some time and recently I switched from BeastMastery to Survival spec (7/20/34). At the moment I'm aware of the fact my gear is my bottle-neck. Infact I'm still with [Surestrike Goggles v3.0] and [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix]. Due to my guild pve-progress very soon I'll be able to replace the head slot with either [Forest Prowler's Helm], [Gronnstalker's Helmet] and [Bristleblitz Striker].

I've read with much interest the last pages of the thread and found out how different people managed to achieve surprising good dps using a BM Macro (2:1, 3:2 that is) using haste effects such as [Dragonspine Trophy], Bloodlust, Drums, Rapid Fire.

I ran some tests and tried to figure out how my hunter could improve during time with the addition of a few items. I went to Dr. Boom and checked out how my dps output is at the moment and I tried (basing on empirical feelings) to figure out what could be the best for me.

Using the 2:1 macro listed about 1-2 pages ago I found out my dps was extremely low, but on the other side I noticed that in presence of Rapid Fire it shines (Had about 750 dps, with rapid fire they quickly evolved into 950dps).
Then I tried a castsequence that emulates the 1:1.5 (/castsequence reset=6 !Auto shot, Steady shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto shot, Steady shot, !Auto shot, Steady shot, Multi-shot, !auto Shot, Steady Shot) and my dps was ranging toward 1150 dps.

I came to a few conclusion based on how my equip will evolve, and I think the best choice for me is to keep going with the 1:1.5 rotation, instead of the 2:1 one. Why? I won't be able to access to [Dragonspine Trophy], my guild of course can't really waste time on a trash mob such as Gruul for an item that could never drop and that could be just an upgrade to me. Given this situation, probably I'll never manage to keep my haste up and take the full benefit of the 2:1 macro (I find that bloodlust, rapid fire, Iaoth are unable to provide me enough "hasted time" in order to make the 2:1 shine).

On the other side the 1:1.5 rotation seems to work fine, Against illidan most of the times I could keep my dps aligned to any other dps class such as warlock, rogues, mages, shadow priests. Mana didn't seem to be a problem at all despite the fact I couldn't benefit the presence of a Shadow priest. (Recount showed a 1300-1400 dps for me)


I'd love to get some feedbacks on my thoughts.

I can't find my math right now but I use 1 agi = .6 raid dps.

Yeah I was chaining a little bit there. I am going to look into fixing that. I was for the sake of testing also haste stacking as much as I could which may have resulted in these chains.

I'm also to debate whether 7/20/34 is a better spec then 0/20/41. I feel without a doubt on a shorter duration fight such as what we see in most of BT/Hyjal that the 0/20/41 spec allows the greatest DPS. After a few runs through Sunwell on this spec and the length of the fights I gave the 7/20/34 spec a try.

I can't complain hitting 2065 w/ on 1 Heroism. My failure in this fight may have been the haste stacking to try to increase burst. I was taking Haste Pots w/ Rapid Fires and taking Haste Pots/Rapid Fire w/ a Heroism getting my attack speed down to .86

Moneyshots the hunter you see in the WWS does the same. He is a new recruit from a guild called Promethean and he had been explaining to me the benefits of doing this so I decided I would give it a try with him.

I think it still perhaps better to seperate all of your hastes even if the fights are running longer then they normally do. Next week I will test that out.

You have Uday and myself posting over 2k DPS with this style of play and you have Gonktarget posting 1990 w/ a strong 1:1.5 rotation, 2 heroisms and 2 BM hunters buffing him FI. I have no doubt he was doing what he could to maximize his DPS on that fight and it shows to me that the 1:1.5 rotation is going to hold you back. To me Gonktarget is maximizing that rotation and milking it for all it is worth to squeeze out as much DPS as possible and with the nature of this rotation he has pretty much maximized the DPS you can do with it. Even Intermission posts 1952 doing this rotation last week.

Hopefully, Intermission kills Brutallus today and is able to post his logs using the same style of play as UDay and I so more of you can start to realize that this really is the more ideal way to play the Survival spec in the end game.

I look forward to this because the question will be how to maximize this rotation as far as how you handle cooldowns, which spec to use 7/20/34 or 0/20/41 - Is it best to scoop up all the haste and get yourself down to a 2.13 or slightly less speed or so you stay at 2.46 and stack armor pen. All of these things need to be figured out over the course of the coming months and it is alot easier to test them when more people are on board then 1 or 2 guys trying to figure it out for themselves.