hmmm. That would have been good to know :p

If Survival, you don't use IAotH, since Mortal Shots is obviously better.
If BM, you use IAotH unless you have so much haste that it hurts you.

Arguing about IAotH being useful is really only relevant for Marks specs, which is silly since you could contribute more to your raid by spec'ing BM or Survival (please send WWS if you disagree ).

If you look at the numbers I posted, 15/43/3 out DPSes BM. My issue with that build is mana usage (not all of us get pocket shadowpriests), and latency. Don't get me wrong, I like the BM group buff better, I prefer the mana efficiency, and I like having a spec that does well in arenas, so I agree that raiders probably shouldnt take MM. But there are still people who do, and the 15/43/3 spec allows them incredible DPS.

But like I said, AotH is just plain bad for everyone but BM specs. I am curious why you are so ready to dismiss it when there was a lot of talk about AotH earlier in the thread and it is obvious people have been considering using it. I simply came along to try and alleviate any misconceptions about AotH being good for survival (or MM). Why exactly do you have a problem with that?

Having just switched from BM to Surv, I have noticed much more significant mana pool depletion. Even with 3/3 TotH and 5/5 Efficiency.

- At 40% crit 3/3 TotH is only returning 16% of mana used (40% return on 40% of shots)
- 1:1.5 rotations utilize more mana costly shots (multi & arcane) unless you down rank
- TBW offers BM hunters 20% mana cost reduction 13% of the time (18 secs with 2min CD) 3% effectively.
- Easy to spec BM with Efficiency

BM example: Average 1:1 mana cost over 10 shots: 550
Surv/MM example: Average 1:1.5 mana cost over 10 shots: 945

Even if the BM hunter is firing 25% more in the time period that the Surv/MM hunter fires 10 shots, we are still talking 688 vs. 945 before talents.

Assuming both have 5/5 efficiency, BM hunter uses TBW every time it's up, Surv hunter has 3/3 TotH...

BM: (688*0.9)*0.97= 600 mana used
Surv: (945*0.9)*0.84= 714 mana used
In an equal period of time.

Granted I am not taking into account KC, Mend Pet or Rez Pet... but those are things ALL hunters use and while BM is the most depend on the above, they are also able to spec into mana cost reducing talents to accommodate.

Additionally, most Surv specced hunters are using off class gear with item value stacked toward Agi, which generally results in smaller mana pool and lower MP5 tick than traditional hunter gear.

Correct me here if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure Surv is not the most mana efficient... It should however beat out MM. Regarding haste effects and savings they could result in, I would be interested to hear more.

It's all in the huge Hunter Spreadsheet thread. I'd put a note in the instuctions in the spreadsheet, but I don't think anyone reads them (based on the feedback/questions I get. )

I dont have efficiency, and find that I have absolutely no need for it (maybe its just me since I dual wield mana oils, use mageblood, mark of conquest, and get blessing of wisdom). From that standpoint, Survival is only using slightly more MP5 than I currently do as BM. I fire 5 steady shots in 10 seconds, where if I were survival I would fire 4 steady shots, 1 multi, and 1 arcane (I do downrank my multi shots, never saw a reason not to). I use 550, where if I were survival I would use 770.

That leaves me at 550 for BM vs 582 as survival. Now for BM I use rapid fire and berserk every time they are up (on their own if I can) and I have Imp. AotH which puts me up at a hasted shot time about 40-50% of the time. In general I use something more like 660+ mana per 10s as BM (from the looks of it your number of 688 is accounting for hastes). So I will take your numbers as representative of what I could see if I maximized everything. 688 with no efficiency (and I have zero mana problems) vs 714. I really don't see the need to drop your DPS by 10% to switch over to haste gear as a Survival spec in the name of efficiency. But thats just me.

Yeah, I didnt do a proper comparison of my own numbers and it looks to be only a 4% difference, oops

But yeah, for survival if you downrank to multi-shot 1 that only reduces damage by ~200-300 per 10s cycle or 20-30 DPS which is a smaller loss to get better mana efficiency than BM at 582 vs the 688 we are probably currently burning. Comparatively you would have to completely switch up your gear to allow for haste gear, which rarely has good agility/crit stats.

Anyway, I'm off to try survival next week. This thread has actually helped a lot in my decision.

Apologies, I didn't mean to sound dismissive. I'm agreeing with you, I feel the choice of Mortal Shots over IAotH is completely obvious as a Survival spec.

I'm assuming your analysis here is using Cheeky's spreadsheet? Anyone able to provide a WWS or three to support this?

Funny, I get a very different conclusion. Using my gear (Karazhan level, 1 TK item)

BM (41/20/0) nominal dps: 1829 MAX DPS: 1983 at additional haste +225
MM (18/43/0) nominal dps: 1777 MAX DPS: 2230 at additional haste +486
MM (18/43/0) DPS: 2060 at haste +225

Note the shot rotation is the same for all dps cases above. (Tweaking the shot rotation for MM gets me to around 1787 but not much more.)

I'd say that haste is beneficial for ALL specs, and once you have enough haste MM will easily dominate BM. That even makes sense.

I don't see how there is a choice between IAotH and Mortal Shots.
here is a build with both. It doesn't concede any DPS talents to get there either. The choice is between IAotH and Master Tactician or IAotH and Barrage w/ 2 more points for fluff elsewhere. Of those choices I am beginning to think the Barrage build may be best after seeing the % of my damage made up by multi-shot on boss-fights. This may be a good build now that I think about it (hmm...perhaps some Dr. Boom testing is in order on the test realm).

Really, it is a shame that MT is such a horrible investment.

Sorry, I hit defensive mode there. As for WWS, I can try to get a friend to post them. The spec was shown to me by an officer of my guild that started WoW in alliance while the rest of us did horde. He's in Afterlife with Thott and Fritti. I dont know if he had permission to show me the build, so I'll leave names out for now and claim I found it in the armory. *cough*

Basically he said Thott is always top DPS with the version of the 15/43/3 spec with AotH (which after modeling it in Cheeky's DPS sheet I found to reduce DPS below a spec without it, but hey, it works for him I guess), and that their BM hunter has never been able to pass Thott. At the pre-Hyjal/BT gear level I see why that is the case because that is precisely what Cheeky's DPS sheet is showing. And they do group him with a Shadowpriest from what my friend says, so mana with a MM spec wouldn't be an issue. I did try it for a very short time. Needless to say I do not get the luxury of a shadowpriest, and ran myself out of mana very quickly which led to a very subpar performance. People that regularly raid as MM might be more capable of using their mana wisely than I did since I normally raid as BM.

Now to try and get the WWS.

Apologies for not going into more details.

I used the same steady/auto rotation for all cases. As I mentioned, I could change the rotation for MM and get somewhat higher dps for the unhasted case. I didn't do that because I was interested in the hasted case, where I only have time to do a steady/auto.

Ya, I set latency to 50ms, which is what I get.

"you cannot do a max special rotation with MM" ? if you mean I can't mix multi and arcane in with the steady, well I can actually, but I didn't.

Yes, I kept the gear fixed and added haste rating only. I was addressing your original statement, "Haste is beneficial only for a BM spec."

I claim that haste can never hurt you -- if that is the only thing that changes. Of course, if you are replacing an item with better stats with a haste item, then the haste ITEM can hurt. But haste ITSELF can NEVER hurt you. At the worst, it doesn't change your dps.

Once we get more haste items, we'll all be switching back to MM...

I won't, I'll be staying SV, which is why I'll still be reading this thread or a similar one

Haste will benefit SV as much or more than MM btw, more shots means more crits (means better efficiency and more solid ew uptime).

"Yes, I kept the gear fixed and added haste rating only. I was addressing your original statement"

This explains your results. You are so busy nitpicking over semantics you lost sight of the realistic applications of haste. Had you kept yourself grounded in gear selections that are actually available, you would see my statement is correct. When you choose haste you are picking it over other stats, and thus hurting yourself. I feel I have adequately proven that by analyzing the best possible gear selections and comparing them across the board for both hasted and unhasted builds.

Not only is using steady/auto only for an un-hasted MM unrealistic, but randomly adding in haste on top of your current gear looks as though you are purposefully trying to skew things merely for the sake of argument.

I have to question your methods and goals based on the way you approached the topic.

Now if You actually go back and compare the T6 gearing available for the builds and place them in the spread sheet, analyzing both Hasted and unhasted for MM and BM, then we can see what you actually get for DPS. I can randomly throw things like crit on top of builds and claim that Crit is going to be the best end-game stats, but that would not actually be proving anything beyond my ability to pick a stat and add it to my gear in ways that aren't actually possible.

I raid with Mark of Conquest + 2x oil + Major Mageblood + super/fel mana pots.
I get oom even with 5/5 efficiency and 3/3 toth without outside help (shaman or sp or healed pet)
It's one of reasons I dare not to even try MM atm.

@Kaber
Just curious, what raid buffs did you use for calculations? If any?

I have some spare time and will try to "beat" your results
Just need data on buffs, mob type and possible armor.

Also I use 200ms latency (~75ms connection, ~125ms reflex) and I feel I'm generous here.

Edit:
Just plugged my gear in v24 spreadsheet.
Added standard raid buffs (motw, kings, might, agi pot, warp burger)
Target: 0 armor, humanoid/beast/dragon/giant
All made with 1.5 rotation, 0 lag

I usually have LotP or improved GoA but not always same one so... not included.
shrani.si - slovenski strežnik za gostovanje datotek - Sometimes both ^^

1. My gear:
7/20/33 build: 2056 dps - 1.5 + steady at quick shots
0/24/37 build: 2078 dps
0/20/41 build: 2114 dps

2. Plugging in haste gear (126 rating only from: Fists, Wrist, 2xRing):
7/20/33: 2164 dps
0/24/37: 2146 dps
0/20/41: 2193 dps

3. Changing that 4 haste gear items with t6 quality things I would use (higher agility, 1 procs AP thats not modeled yet)
7/20/33: 2129 dps
0/24/37: 2151 dps
0/20/41: 2188 dps

@200 ms and :

1. (haste gear)
7/20/33: 2079 dps (1:1 rotation closes on 1.5 only in this case with 2035 dps steady spam)
0/24/37: 1996 dps
0/20/41: 2036 dps

2. (haste equivalent t6 agi gear)
7/20/33: 2089 dps
0/24/37: 2083 dps
0/20/41: 2117 dps

@200 ms and 6000 armor (kinda standard?):
1. haste
7/20/33: 1405 dps

2. agi
0/24/37: 1415 dps
0/20/41: 1438 dps
---
My personal conclusion:
Getting haste and start spamming macro would be far easier and less error prone than sticking to 1.5 rotation and providing as big EW as possible (due having max agi gear instead of haste). See 7/20/33 with 200ms lag... steady spam there can be improved with more haste...

0/24/37 build is something that has "utilities" other 2 don't. Meaning Scatter Shot that I'm not ready to give it up. Saves my or someone else butt to many times. Or in case of 7/20/33 that lacks TotH and Scatter :/

@ Miruman
Your right.. Mana efficiency for Surv Hunters also for me seems to be worse than BM or MM. No doubt about that.
Also, most of the "dedicated" surv gear doest not have any mana reg.
At some point, I skipped TotH completely for more dmg in the MM tree because I have to drink potions like mad anyway ;-) And I did not regret it; 3% more damage to all shots is really nice.

In my raid I usually manage to get Wisdom + mana seal on the mob + mana oil on weapon. In fight, from time to time I place myself in the group of our Shadowpriest for some 20 seks, be it for pet healing oder mana reg. For pet unfriendly fights like lurker or void reaver, usually a druid helps a bit with healing.
So, as long as the fight is no longer than 10 minutes, I just come around with mana without having to skip specials.


@ Kaber

Do not underestimate the trophy. Even for me as Surv it has a proc chance of some 1.3 ppm. The damage you gain by the haste is far superior than with hourglass for example. Also, it helps to to improve the uptime of EW. Usually, with trophy equipped, I equal the dmg of our BM hunter. With hourglass equiped my colleague gets the lead with some 50 DPS or so ahead of me.

I only use a auto/steady macro for the rotation. KC, multi and arcance I usually weave in according to cooldowns, so changing the rotation is not really a problem after some time to praxis.

I have 7/20/34 with 1 point in TotH, we have 61 talent point at lvl 70. Scatter might not be that important past Kara.
Though when I tried Kara as BM(for guild test) died often on trap duty due trap resists and no good escape (no deterrance, no scatter, pet on current raid target).
Back to Surv and no problems even without SS.

Em thanks for correction:
7/20/34 - 2/3 EW + 2/3 TotH - possible
7/21/33 - 3/3 EW - 0 toth or only 1/3. :/
Still don't look better to me

Scatter lets see.
Almost all trash "not important", but raids go faster with less deaths - less deaths is usually good morale. While dying on trash multiple times = bad for some people (and we have enough of them). You can "see" how bosses are going to go simply to have death counter on. And if specific people are high on it, its better to give them "easier" tasks if possible.

TK
Alar - 0
Solarian - saved people, helps stop multiple (4+) mobs that go on AR Tanks Healer
Void - 0
Kael - no idea, was there 1x for first and only try we had, probably 0 use.

SSC
Hydross - Elementals?
Tidewalker - saved people (aoe)
Phantom Lord - 0?
Lurker - 0
Leo - Inner Demon
Vashj - elementals sometimes go trough DZ or are at ~200hp left... had few KBs with scatter

I would remind people on Kael trash... its easier if one hunter grabs 1-2 whirlwinders and kites them. (Void room = big playground / Al'ar room = ramps)
Initial pulls of that mobs went so far that I killed my mob before raid wiped on rest Got /gchat jokes how raid is going to wait 20 minutes outside or go pvp while hunters go and clear the trash. Its fun to be hunter.

And there is this... VLC (guild) thing.
AllyX: "zomg, vlc member. Gank!"

Happens all the time, you can't do daily quests without some incident. Witch is perfectly cool for me I got scatter

I might be missing something here, but I don't quite understand why some people are saying haste is only good for BM.

From what I understand haste is one of the larger benefits of the BM spec (ignoring FI, TBW and pet damage for the purpose of this discussion). More shots in shorter time period should result in more damage.

The primary reason for the 1:1 shot cycle BM hunters use is to effectively accommodate their attack speed without clobbering auto-shots (generally around 2.0).

The primary reason for Surv and MM hunters using a 1:1.5 cycles is because of their slower, non-hasted attack speed. 1:1 would result in sub-optimal output with an attack speed around 2.5.

From my understanding, the reason that SOME haste effects are detrimental are:

- For the BM hunter it can reduce attack speed below the 2.0 threshold and (correct me if I am wrong here) result in the inability to get an auto-shot off (dependant on whether or not haste effect speeds up cast time on specials).

- Surv/MM hunters with 1:1.5 cycles haste effects create a need to adjust cycle to match attack speed creating management issues.

Given those assumptions, why would a Surv/MM hunter not want a consistently hasted cycle (1:1) where they are firing more shots? I can understand not wanting to constantly adjust for a procing haste effect, but consistent haste seems beneficial to any build as long as they can match a shot cycle to their attack speed.

The statement that haste only affects helps only BM is IMO false. I have done nothing but better dps ever since I built my SV spec based on haste type affects: abacus, IAOTH, rapid fire, Drums etc. At least 100 DPS more on the fights I have been tracking. You obviously need to be smart on using them (unless they are passive like dragonspine) but they are definite DPS increases for SV and MM builds. I am not gonna waver on that statement. Now of course there might be a situation where a haste item vs a non haste item is not the advantage. Take the crystalwave cape over some cape with tons of ag and ap. I am sure those situations exist. But by and by haste is our best stat when used in a correctly weaved rotation.


T

All the standard raid buffs. Might, Kings, Imp. MotW, agility elixirs, warp burgers, and I did both with and without feral druids (it created a static improvement between MM and BM, so I just left it on for all builds I've done since then). I turned off any hunter buffs they are not capable of giving themselves (EW, TSA, FI).

I'll go over the numbers again and plug things back in to the spread sheet to see what, if anything, I may have missed. My survival sets were done with a latency of 300 ms, but normally I'm down under 200ms. I think 100-200 seems to be fairy average, so I will give it another run at 200ms.

Something I want to make a bit more clear for other people: for survival to haste up you begin giving up large amounts of agility. Personally, I don't find that worth doing since the point of survival is buffing the DPS of everyone else, rather than yourself. Plus, as Sapa's numbers indicate, hasting would actually reduce your DPS at the 200ms mark over a standard 1.5 shot rotation with max agility. Its a lose-lose for survival in my opinion. Now to find the MM thread to begin remodeling the haste sets.

Yeah, I had no idea it wasn't modeled yet in the spread sheet, so that may change things for a MM build. Unfortunately for me, its a trinket I will likely never see.

Why is it lose lose? Most of the T6 items (gloves being the exception imo) and many of the non-set BT/Hyjal items have the maximum agility for a given slot in the game (except those stupid Hyjal boots, wtf is up with those being worse than Vashj/Astromancer boots?). If your BM/MM hunters benefit so much from the haste items then all the easier to deck out your SV hunter in agi items