First off let me say that it's awesome that you compile a lot of useful information for survival hunters and it's certaintly a step in the right direction.

However I think stating that "This spec is more popular at the lower levels of gear where the crit provided by master tactician helps compensate for weaker gear." about 0/20/41 is a misunderstanding. Selecting 0/20/41 over 7/20/34 isn't done to compensate for crit on lower gear levels, it's done to compensate for the lack of haste and more specifically for the lack of a DST. Later on you seem to state this but the haste requirement you list is far below what 7/20/34 would need. Also it's my personal belief that there is no point in going 7/20/34 without 4pc and it would be very questionable if you would have the haste permitting this if your gear level does not exceed 4pc t6.

Basically what I'm saying is that provided 4pc Gronnstalker is available the following speeds are non optional and dictate what your rotation should be:

If you have a 3.0 bow and little haste, try to get as close to 2.5 drawspeed as possible and shoot 2:1.
If you have a 2.8 or 2.7 bow and a lot of haste and a DST, try to get below 2.1 drawspeed, even as low as 1.9 (unrealistic for survival) and shoot a basic 3:2 which will turn into 1:1 while hasted from DST/Haste Potion/. If you end up shooting 2:1 with these bows because of a lack of haste, you are better off dropping the haste in favor of different stats (armor pen, usually) because the haste that puts you below 2.5 draw speed will mostly be wasted on clipped auto shots. It's also better to switch back to 0/20/41 over 7/20/34 then.
If you have a draw speed of below 1.9 you can shoot a 1:1 which will tighten under haste effects and under extreme haste (think lusted/heroism DST/QS procs) even turn into a 1:2.

The macro I advise for all of those is Manito's which is linked various times throughout this thread. Even at no 4pc T6 gear levels it might be more advisable to shoot steady-only rotations because of the way these behave under haste. Added benefits include the fact that while you're not weaving manually, you're not affected by lag and have more time to be situationally aware and although that shouldnt be an argument in a DPS discussion it can often prove to be invaluable to your DPS.

Two more awesome hunters tools you may want to include in your spreadsheet are

A Haste Calculator -> Ray Mears Eats Sweden • Portal
An ArPen Calculator -> World Of Warcraft Armor Penetration Damage Increase Calculator

Really hope someone links your guide in the opening post though, since it seems to sum up some of the more frequently asked questions and although I don't agree with some of the information portrayed in your guide it's certainly better than nothing.

Thank you for the input Energy. I tried to collect as much accurate information as possible before publicizing the guide but my hope is that as people read it and give feedback I can make it better. I added a little more detail about the 4pc T6 requirement by the imp hawk description for now (I had it under 3:2 but not with the spec) and I will sit down later and try to clean up the details more. Honestly the whole haste for 3:2 thing has been really confusing to me, I've read a lot from people on the subject and I keep getting different information, but the 80-100 haste thing I've seen a lot so I've been working with that. By drawspeed do you mean the listed speed on the character sheet? You also don't mention 2.9 speed which is the speed my gun is at.

With regards to the MT spec, most of what I've seen has indicated that the deeper marks builds tend to perform better dpswise although there seems to be a lot of argument over it. That's why I mentioned the low crit because mostly that's what I've seen people say MT should be used for. You don't mention the deep marks builds at all, do you not think they are worthwhile?

I'll look for that macro and see how it compares to what I have. I also added the links you posted for the haste and armor penetration calculator, those are a big help.

Oke, thank you for the details about the TPS, I'm gonna find some way to include that in the calculator later, got a raid now but I should have time to work on it later tonight.

Yea to put it bluntly, those specs going deeper than 20 into marks are bad in my opinion. I've never seen a reasonable WWS parse from anyone using 1:1.5 and I very much doubt there's any reason to use those shots, even more so because of the mana use on them.
The 80-100 haste stems from the following equation:

Draw speed (paperdoll ranged attack speed) = Weaponspeed / ( 1.15 * ( 1 + HASTE/1580 )

For a 2:1 rotation you're going to want the following to happen:
Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot.
Now obviously that's 2 global cooldowns and the last SS has to finish .5 seconds before the AS because of the shot delay at it. So ideally you'd have a 1.25 SS with a 2.5 AS, which luckily works out to roughly the same 20% Haste needed with a 3.0 weapon.

1.2/1.15(quiver)~ 4.35% haste ~ 70 haste rating needed. Add a little bit for your lag (10-30 depending on ping) and you'll get a really tight 2:1 rotation.

With a 2.9 gun the ratio of haste you need is less than ideal because to get 1.25 SS you'd need a different %haste than to get a 2.5 AS, but you can make due regardless. This doesn't change the fact that with for instance your gear, you should be shooting 2:1 and I'm quite certain your DPS would be better as 0/20/41.

Nice guide and really appreciate the EW calculator. My suggestion would be to include an option to add Improved Hunter's Mark to the AP gained by the raid, since many SV hunters are speced into providing that as well, and it will show a more realistic DPS gain.

You repeatadly say that the 2:1 rotation is also refered to as a 3:2 rotation. Correct me if I´m wrong but so far I assumed a 2:1 rotation to be 2 steadys for each 1 auto shot whereas the 3:2 rotation would be kind of a 1:1.5 rotation that only utilises steady shots as specials leading to 3 steadies every 2 auto shots.

Yea Midnight, you're correct.

To clarify, the 2:1 rotation utilizes the same macro as a 3:2 rotation, simply being the result of a slower attack speed.

The rotation can be referred to as a 2:1, but the macro being dubbed by some as the 3:2 macro is a misnomer, actually. The macro changes the player's rotation based on the current attack speed, and so does not represent a 3:2 or 2:1 rotation always. The macro and the rotation, while related, are not the same thing.

To avoid confusion, I would request that people please refer to this macro only as the /cast /cast macro and stop confusing it with resultant rotations. It makes some of us a little dizzy.

A couple things I disagree with your guide.

1. Hit Rating should be the primary item budget concern for survival hunter, any hunters for that matter, and not agility.

2. While agility is important, it is important to look at gear and work out what will give the most dps, whether in terms of raid or personal dps. This is why we do not enchant bracers for with +4 all stats for example and use assault instead.

3. In your required talents you have incorrectly stated that Trap Mastery (2/2) should be taken. This is incorrect since there is no difference between (1/2) and (2/2). So that is a wasted talent point. There is a long discussion on the boards about this.

Other than that looks good.

That's not true. Depending on your gear/spec, Agility will still give more DPS point for point than hit rating, even while under the cap. Use spreadsheets to see what each point of stats will provide you with personally. That's not to say you don't want to be hit capped, but when it comes to gems/enchants +hit is not always the answer.

One thing I'd have to mention is that Improved FD seems to be an afterthought in the guide. For those 2 filler talents, nothing can potentially increase your DPS more.

EDIT: Gear guide is missing [Cursed Vision of Sargeras], [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness]

In my personal experience I did far better with a 7/20/34 +DST than I did with 0/28/33 IAS even without the 4p t6 bonus. At the same time I found that I did better as 7/20/34 with a /cast/cast than a 1:1.5; in part I think this has to do with the way the /cast/cast 'reacts' to your bow speed. But I'm also sitting at an odd 2.36 draw speed due to minor haste (52ish) and the ever so pretty badge bow. In the works for my next raid is swapping out to the Amani ArP bow to get 2.5 drawspeed. Which, I think, should post slightly higher numbers with a /cast/cast.

Well with a 2.5 draw you'd really want 0/20/41 because you're not going to make very good use of the 7 points in BM if you're shooting 2:1
That's one of the points I was trying to make though, that no matter what gear level you are you should basically never use anything but 1:1, 3:2 or 2:1 (all shot via /cast/cast). This obviously means that points in Barrage or IAS are a complete waste, leaving you with only 7/20/34 (<2.1 draw + DST) and 0/20/41 (>2.1 but ideally 2.5 draw) as options.

Pretty much, yea. There's a slight delay between the last SS launch and AS launch but that doesn't really change anything.

That 2:1 dealy seems to perform pretty poorly with somebody of my gearing. Extensive testing done out in Blasted Lands to get some "real world" comparisons (ie: pet use/KC effects/etc.), and on almost every extended runthrough (I just fully self buffed, weapon coating/mageblood, proper Fel Mana use) I averaged a 100-200 DPS loss when comared to a 0/28/33 Barrage/RWS build and a standard 1:1.5 rotation. Perhaps it'd be different in a real raid setting, but I'm not going to risk it yet in Hyjal tomorrow. By another comparison, 7/20/34 with CoRS, same haste gear (2.35 speed total), performs erratically slightly or better or slightly worse than the 0/28/33 on average, and that's with dynamic swapping of rotations from a clipped 1:1.5 to the /cast rotation under any haste effects.

Perhaps it does require at least a set bonus to boost its performance? An absolutely PERFECT weapon speed coupled with just the right amount of haste and next to no latency to worry about? MT is still amazingly terrible, though readiness is a neat toy with too long of a cooldown. But say you get that T6 4pc bonus...7/20/34's going to be the best performance with that setup in the longrun anyhow, isn't it?

Edit: Oh, I currently have my BM gear/spec on at the moment, if you were to check Armory. Don't go by that!

... then what?

This is where I get hazy about the exact mechanics... as I understand it, the reason 3:2 works is that if Steady is cast while the 0.5-second Auto cast is still underway, the Steady cast is delayed until the Auto cast completes, however, the GCD associated with the delayed Steady cast is not delayed, which allows a 3:2 ratio of Steady-to-Auto interleaving at the appropriate haste.

However, I'm seeing a consistent cycle-time of about 3.2 seconds when doing a 2:1 rotation, which implies that this isn't the case... TBH, the Shot Rotations Explained threat is of little help, as its presentation of the relevant mechanics also (as far as I understand them) precludes a 3:2 rotation.

I spent from Naj to Mother using the /cast /cast, and it failed horribly. I think its my FPS or something, but at times it would simply back to back chain cast steadies, without room for auto at all. I had to manually stop spamming near the end of the second steady to keep it a 2:1 or 3:2 depending on RF or haste pots. Hand weaving a 2:1 is near impossible with any sort of lag whatsoever, and I'm going back to a 1:1.5

That really was no fun. >.<

Until I can figure out what I was doing wrong, I'm not raiding with /cast /cast. Anyone know why it would chain cast steadies like that? It wasn't all the time, but a few times a cast would catch, and then I'd be stuck without an autoshot for awhile until I stopped casting, or a few steadies later. I've never heard of a 7:1 rotation, but I don't think its good.

Catalept:

I don't really know what you're asking, you refer to 3:2 but that tiny bit of rotation you quoted is from a 2:1, so I don't really know what you mean.


Kaetrii:

Chaining Steady's is a result of GCD finishing before Steady Shot cast, the reason for this is usually pushback from random splash damage or another source. Basically the /cast/cast does not automatically fire Auto Shot for you, they are more or less a result of the Steady Shot spam being faster than the GCD and thus there being room for Auto Shot in between Steady Shot casts because there is a natural gap because you're limited by GCD. However on some fights where you take a fair share of pushback your GCD is going to catch up with your Steady Shot cast time and you'll never leave gaps for Auto Shot.
The counter to this requires some awareness, if you want to maximize your DPS on for instance Brutallus, you'll do 1 Arcane Shot everytime you take a Meteor Slash. The Arcane Shot will trigger GCD which will leave enough room for your Auto Shot and you can continue to spam /cast/cast then without the negative effects of chaining Steady Shots without Auto Shots.
With 4 piece Gronnstalker you should always see more damage from /cast/cast 2:1 with 0/20/41 than you should see from 1:1.5 with virtually any spec. The only thing I could think of why your damage is lower with 2:1 is a substntial amount of lag in combination with your less than ideal draw speed. A little bit of haste to tighten up your rotation would go a long way.

Edit: Chaining Steady's could also be a result of not spamming the macro. You really gotta keep spamming the macro to get results.

I really believe Blasted Lands Tests and Spreadsheets are quite poor alternatives to the real thing. If you want to test something reliably you should just test it in a raid environment on a boss that lends itsself well for it.
Brutallus is of course the best fight to compare different specs on since that's what you try to optimize for as well, I assume. I don't know what kind of DPS you guys pull on Brut but I have a hard time believing 1:1.5 rotations result in reasonable numbers.

I'm really feeling a bit lost right now, would appreciate some input.

I took a raiding break (did a lot of arena) not too long before the 3:2 (and 2:1) rotation was discovered. I have played hunter for a long time, and PvE wise my knowledge was 1:1 BM and 1:1.5 MM or Surv. I read as much as I can about 3:2 and 2:1, and it just seems 1:1.5 these days doesn't provide much dps and seems to have it's limits. So while only achieving 1550ish dps as 28/33 with a 1:1.5 I talked with a few hunters and tried a 5/21/35 Imp Hawk build with a 2:1 rotation (3:2 with hawk procs). The BT clears and few ZA's seemed to produce better results. then came today's brutallus and I was a bit disappointed.

I did NOT have t6 belt in this boss fight, used bladeangel's from ZA - main thing is i was at 80hitrating. I used t6 helmet so I did have 4set
The World of Warcraft Armory

Here's the log
Wow Web Stats
I'm looking around at other surv hunter logs that are reporting dps numbers of 2k plus and I can't seem to figure out what/if I'm doing anything wrong. Shot rotation/ratio's are all similar, and all I can tell is that the 2k dps surv hunters just plain hit a good 150+ damage harder than I do. I don't know if that alone can justify the dps difference. could use some help.

my pet is owl and I was on scorpid sting duty. I don't feel these factors should be more than a 100-150dps difference though.

Perhaps. I'm still somewhat tempted to try it out in Hyjal on our next trip....again meaning we're at mid-level progression, got a ways to go for Brutalus. The main reason for using Blasted Lands mob testing is to provide an unkillable entity to give the closest comperable testing when trying different rotation's and specs, however. You naturally shouldn't put too much merit in the final DPS numbers so much as you should record differences in efficiency(mana use), shot frequency, and average DPS from one spec/rotation to the next. Of course a raid is going to be the end-all, however having those pre-tests complete ahead of time knowing what to expect, and that you in turn are not going to let the raid down by decreased performance...that's what should matter.

That said, I'll post a trend I noted when doing this myself. Autoshot speed was slightly "too fast" in this sense...useing a 2.9 speed weapon and enough passive haste to get to a final 2.43...latency 34ms. Massive spam of the /cast /cast macro would see a 3-steady chain every 3 cycles, 2 on others. Kill Command procs, even with the /click macro, would worsen this effect. Spam speed no less than 10 times per second. So in the end, I self wove the 2:1 ratio, spammed like crazy for 2 steadies and paused slightly to make sure Auto fires, then immediately started up again. I'm sure some of the downtrend in damage was created from the imperfection with that.

The only time I ever got a 2:1 to happen perfectly was with similar latency, and 2.26 shot speed.

I've had a look through most of the posts in this thread, there are a lot mind you, and particularily for some certain pieces of information which seemed to be conflicting from different posters.

Here's my Armory, with my current raiding gear and talents.

I use a 1:1.5 shot rotation with arcane shot and multishot when unhasted, and a 1:1 rotation with either Rapid Fire or Heroism up. My pet is a Windserpent, with an Owl and a Wolf in the stables.

The main problems I'm having a lot of trouble finding unconflicting answers to are:

1) What trinkets should I be using? Someone recently suggested that both Darkmoon Card: Crusade and even Bloodlust Brooch (Badges) were better than my Madness of the Betrayer, and that my Ashtongue Trinket was in fact far better than I had thought and that I shouldn't be replacing it anytime soon.

2) Should I be using a 2:1 steadyshot rotation? My reasoning with sticking to a 1:1.5 rotation is that I do more shots per second, as I calculated it at least (I took into account hasted steadyshot casts from quiver etc, as well as autoshot cast time), as well as in dps reports my multishots and arcane shots doing more damage than my steadys, so I'm also doing more damage per shot. I like to use shots per second and average damage per shot to work out shot rotations.

I apologise now for asking for advise in this thread as I myself hated reading other people asking for it, but after not finding concrete answers from several hours of looking on a lot of sites I ran out of options.


PS: 3) Exactly how important is hit rating? I'm a tad low at the moment.
PPS: Oh crap, I just realised my 1:1.5 probably isn't doing more average damage per shot than 2:1 since I got 4 piece Tier 6, which I only got recently and haven't changed my rotationto adjust for yet.

Depends on the encounter. For ex. on KJ a 3:2 (2:1,1:1) rotation is not a good option; i am using a 1:1,5 rotation on KJ encounter. This boosts my dps up to 300dps comparing to other shot rotation (pushback firebloom, flamedart ... target switchting).

So even with end game gear there is not the ONE shot rotation, it depends on lot of things (like encounter abilities, gear, personal tasks)

I have been trying the 7/20/34 and am 0/20/41 atm. I just can't figure how often the IAtH procs - My calculations say it should be up most of the time:
~10 shots with 10% chance of a 12 sec buff ~ 100% uptime

But my experience is that it isn’t, I dont know if it has an internal cooldown? The talent say 10% of all normal ranged attacks, is that only AS or does SS count too ( I would expect SS to be normal…)?

When I look at WWS it only count very few procs for Quick Shot or doesn’t it show if it refresh the previous buff?

I don’t have the DST or any other passive haste so I keep doing 2:1 or 1:1 while Rapid fire is up. As soon I have +50 haste I will try the 7/20/35 spec again to see if Quick Shot will bring me to a 3:2 rotation.

I havent been able to find the information elsewhere, and hope someone can help