Look close at my earlier posts and you see MM vs BM modeled. I did not model survival until later in the thread. Once again I will reiterate:

MM hasted did lower DPS than MM unhasted.

BM hasted did higher DPS than BM unhasted.

MM did higher DPS than BM until BM was hasted.

So, as I said before - haste is a BM stat. Once cheeky gets the Dragonspine trophy modeled, it might change things up, I really couldn't say. But with every gear set I tried the above statements are true.

I think we need to take this to a MM thread, or maybe start a new one on haste, I dont know. But I will remodel the BM vs MM hasting and see what I come up with.

I think a large part of the issue is the amount of damage Multi-Shot does for MM. You can weave it in place of a steady shot when its up, but it seems like there is just something about that 1.5 rotation for MM.

@ Miruman
The reason BM is doing so much more damage at the same haste level is because of the pet. It gains 20% haste, while the MM pet does not, which increases the up-time of a number of the pet's abilities further boosting DPS. It makes sense for BM to scale up better with haste at a 1:1 shot ratio since they already out DPS MM and Survival if they were to use a 1:1 rotation in the same gear.

I'm not talking about pet DPS. Just looking at the hunter DPS on Cheeky's sheet. If I remove Serpent Swifness and IAotH from an optimal 41/20/0 BM build and switch the shot cycle to a 1:1.5 (for unhasted attack speed) the hunter's DPS drops by 11%.

Theoretically, any hunter should be able to benefit from haste as long as they are not sacrificing a more valuable stat to get it or reducing their attack speed to a point at which they cannot at least do an Auto/Special shot combo.

I did however model this out on Cheeky's spreadsheet with identical gear, just comparing a 2.4 speed bow (2.0 after quiver) with same DPS to my 2.9, using Max Special rotations for each and the slower bow with the 1:1.5 was coming out on top by about 7%. So, I guess I am wrong.

I'm sorry if I missed something, but I dont seem to be able to get the same result. I went back through all your posts cause I just started reading this thread and had a look at the specs you used.

Firstly I'd like to say you made some rather weird choices in your BM spec and lost a small amout of damage by doing so, which might be what led to your conclusion. Be it as it may, I also modeled an endgame gear hunter in Cheekys spreadsheet and I cant find any kind of combination where an MM would outdamage a BM. (only if you skip damage multiplier talents of course).

Endgame items are easily named, its mostly the 4 regular haste items (gloves/bracers/ring/belt) as not everyone can get the shoulders and the haste cape sucks.
Choose one of the 3.0 speed weapons and fill the rest with obvious items.

On paper it really gets close, I have to give you that, but on a serious note, you wont be able to keep up anything else besides a 1:1 rotation even as an MM if you go below 2.2 speed in a stable way. Whoever claims he can shall post a WWS.

And accepting the fact that you will have to go for 1:1 as an MM with 4 or more haste items widens the gap by a big margin again in favour of a BM.

I was thinking about haste today.

If you order shots according to how much damage they do you get:

Auto < Steady <= Arcane < Multi.

A typical 1:1.5 rotation is 2 Autos, 2 Steadies, 1 Other. These 5 shots take place in 2x seconds and 2.5 is a typical x.

A typical 1:1 rotation is 2 Autos, 2 Steadies. These 4 shots take place in 2x seconds and 2.0 is a typical x.

Both rotations have the same rate of fire (1 shot per second), the difference is a 1:1.5 rotation has a higher average shot damage and a higher special per second rate of fire. Then again, if you go with a priority queue for the 1:1 rotation these differences mostly go away (average shot damage will still be slightly lower as a higher percentage of your shots are auto shot).

So if you could take a hunter with no talents and give his gear enough free haste to take his weapon speed from 2.5 to 2.0, what do you get?

-You get the same rate of fire (1 shot per second).
-You get lower mana usage (2 specials per 4 seconds vs 3 specials per 5).
-You get lower average shot damage (more of your shots are autos).
-You get a simpler rotation.

So what does the same rate of fire and lower average damage mean?! Lower DPS.

My current BM spec has been changed since I first did the analysis (I changed it to do better in arenas where pet speed and a stun on concussive are important to me), so I originally had a point in animal handler and 2 in focus regen (though with around 30% crit in raid buffs I dont need more than 1 point in it, probably dont even need any points in it).

As for the rest of your post, I'm 99% sure you just agreed with me that in hasted gear BM > MM.

For the 2 MM specs I posted, the one without AotH in non-hasted gear using a 1.5 rotation out DPSes the unhasted BM spec (rather than using end-game gear, try it in your current gear since in the end-game hasted BM pretty much out DPSes everything). What you need to keep in mind are the gear choices you make help determine what is going on, especially which ranged weapon and its speed.

I dont see why you chose a 3.0s ranged weapon, by the way, as the Serpent Spine bow is 2.9s (bows of that speed are the optimum for damage at a 1.5 special rotation, 3.0, 2.8, and anything else does much lower damage for a MM/Survival build). That is partially why the Sunfury bow out damages the Gladiator one for MM/Surv despite having 6 DPS less on the weapon itself.

A big part of the issue here I believe is the choice you made for the bow. When it comes to bows I have always found Bow Speed > Bow DPS > Bow Stats when it comes to determining the actual damage you will do for your spec. Now, we are fairly off topic with this MM vs BM stuff, so my next reply will be a link to a new thread I post on haste.

Correct, but I would argue the point of the haste items in-game aren't to get you down to a 1:1 rotation, but to tighten up your 1:1.5 rotation. I'd be willing to bet the optimal DPS for any in-game haste-item-wearing MM/SV hunter will be the result of a 1:1.5 rotation which expects to delay autos on any of the steady-special phases. At what speed does 1:1 priority cycle beat out 1:1.5 rotation w/ delays? Is it even ever?

Has anyone ever tested a 1:1.5 rotation w/ delays as BM to see if it can beat the 1:1 rotation for dps?

I think I agree that a haste thread should be started and this discussion moved there btw This is the SURVIVAL thread after all

You can actually see this by changing your ranged slot. For some reason, despite the actual DPS of the items, 2.9s weapons out damage pretty much everything else according to cheeky's spread sheet when a 1.5 shot rotation is involved, so I dont know that it is really possible to successfully tighten your 1.5 rotation because it would likely lead to a large amount of clipping. It might changed based on where you set your latency, so keep that in mind as well.

(this is kinda on the topic of survival with the 1.5 rotation so ummm... this shall be my last post in this thread about haste. i hope.)

Serpent Spine is 3.0s.

Sorry if this thread got a little derailed. I was just interested in hearing what people had to say about haste being viable for Surv specced hunters.

I think it's been concluded:
- In terms of EW and TotH uptime/return: Yes
- In terms of optimal shot cycle for maximum dps: No

Next question, do you think the uptime of Master Tactitian justifies the point expenditure or are those 5 points better used in the MM tree?

What I was asking was if anyone has ever tested with a fast weapon if a purposefully-clipped 1:1.5 rotation would out dps a 1:1 rotation (assuming that the shot damages go like auto<steady<=arcane<multi, like for an MM build). I'm not yet convinced that purposeful-clipping = loss in dps (obviously accidental-clipping from bad cycle execution is, but that's not what I am asking about).

Hi guys, while the haste debate is interesting I think your discussion stopped having relevance to Surv or at least you are not linking it to survival. As such it has become yet another BM/MM debate. Would you mind terribly taking into the haste thread kaber posted.

I've been following this thread closely and have learned a lot and decided to try the 1:1.5 rotation without haste effects

For whats its worth - 2 WWS logs, one of gruuls using the 5/20/36 with improved hawk, DST, & Haste on gloves...switching between 1:1.5 rotation and going to a steady/auto spam when haste effects were stacked.

The Other Gruul i'm using 1.1.5 rotation the whole fight with 0/24/37 spec, no haste on gloves and DST replaced by the hourglass.

The key differences buff wise was in the 24/37 fight i got leader of the pack buff and gave my scorpid an AP buff at the beginning via Bloodlust Brooch. This resulted the scorpid doing 44 more dps than the first fight. In the 5/20/36 fight I had a shadow priest and BM Hunter.

974 dps
Gruul using 5/20/36 spec, IAoTH, Haste on Gloves, & DST (Group Buffs = FI & Shadow Priest)
Wow Web Stats

1197
Gruul using 0/24/37 spec with 1:1.5 rotation (Group Buffs = LotP, plus we had a Hemo rogue in the raid)
Wow Web Stats

Some difference is the scorpid and the buffs, but I still believe unhasted 1:1.5 rotation will win out, the only question now for survival is to use the 0/20/41 spec or the 0/24/37, my biggest problem with 0/20/41 is that you either have to do 2/3 ToTH or 2/3 EW.

- Vas

Mind linking the specific builds (I realize that much of it can be assumed)?

I've actually been debating switching from my current 0/24/37: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft to putting some points into MT (which originally seemed a bit worthless, but I am beginning to think I misjudged).

my 5/20/36 --> Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

my 0/24/37 (very similar to yours) -->
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The extra rapid fires from Readiness are more of a dps boost than MT IMO, if you time it right can't you get 5 rapid fies in one boss fight? once you are hitting 33% unbuffed crit you really start seeing diminishing returns on stacking more of it... especially considering you usually will get a LotP.

With Mortal Shots, LotP would account for a 6.5% damage increase, and a Hemo rogue would be adding (I believe) 50 damage per shot. Your average of 698 per auto in the first and 740 on the second supports the theory, which is a net increase of close to 7% for auto shot damage only (I see similar gains in every shot). Your crit rate only went up 3% from LotP in the second log, which indicates the diminishing returns you were speaking of. So all things being equal, the BM and Druid buffs realistically cancel each other out for the sake of analysis.

So with all other buffs canceling out, save for the obvious benefits of having a shadowpriest for your mana pool, the rogue boosted your damage by somewhere in the range of 6-7% (unless I missed something and Hemo only applies to auto shots).

I believe this shows that the difference in raid buffs available to you in no way, shape, or form could have caused a 20% DPS difference. Between the scorpid's higher damage and the Hemo rogue, you should have seen a 9-10% boost in DPS at the very most. This supports the theory that haste is a poor choice for Survival hunters.

Thanks for posting the logs.

I have been browsing through this thread, but admittedly I have skipped over some parts in the middle. After checking out the links for the 0/24/37 build posted above, I have just a few questions about a 0/20/41 build I've been trying to plan out for a while.

I guess my question would be for a crit rate that is (unbuffed) < 30%, is MT worth it? I really like the readiness skill, it seems to add to my overall usefullness in PvE raids when you can open with an Aimed Shot MD, rapid fire, readiness, MD, rapid fire right off the bat. I'm just curious as to the cutoff point to where the 5 points in MT are no longer worth it and I should think about dropping readiness for improved DPS.

On that note, assuming that I benefit more from MT, I have been trying to find a decent build that allows me to get Wyvern Sting, 3/3 EW and at least 2/3 TotH (I currently only have 1/3). Just wondering if any of you can help me out. Maybe some of you have some sample build of this spec kicking around that I have been unable to find for some reason.

Thanks for all your help in advance (and I appologize if this sounds like it belongs more on the WoW Hunter forums, but frankly you don't often get much help over there)

I've been very skeptical of MT as well, as it seems like a very low return for that tier of talent points. However, when I trade Barrage and Wyvern Sting out of my existing build and put those 4pts into MT on Cheeky's sheet, I get a pretty decent gain. And yes I know WS does nothing for my DPS... so don't even bother to point that out.

1/5 - 2% crit boost (0.78% effective)
2/5 - 4% crit boost (1.56% effective)
3/5 - 6% crit boost (2.34% effective)
4/5 - 8% crit boost (3.12% effective)
5/5 - 10% crit boost (3.9% effective)

If you look at it that way, it's really not too different from Killer Instincts, which is a staple to Survival builds. A bit less benefit for higher tier of points, but still, not bad IMO.

That is not how you calculate uptime. With a 2.5s autoshot cycle and a 1:1.5 rotation you get a 1 shot a second frequency. The uptime would then be 1 - 0.94^8 = 39.04%, for a 3.9% average gain, for 5 talent points.

edit: never mind, I see Cheeky got to it before I could hit the post button.

Interesting reads, I speced a0/20/41 build (went 5 points in MT) for our first few weeks of TK/SSC, but found that I have been the only hunter showing up for raids, and we are currently a VERY caster heavy raid that my the AP Buff wouldnt give back the extra DPS I would be giving as BM.


Regardless of personal dps saying im sitting @ ~900agi raid buffed, what sorta dps would I give back to a raid if we had 5 non tank melee dps (rogues/war/shammy)

First time member at this site...i've read alot of great as well as bad posts on this site but for the most part you guys are "elite" hunters.

My question regards speccs...I've seen some of the links you guys posted earlier and the discussions of buffing the raid members with EW or FI...as for my raid compositions there are always 1 rogue and one warrior dps for 25 men...very rare there will be 2 rogues 1 warrior and one feral dps...so as for the case where there's only 1 rogue and 1 warrior dps do you guys think that it's extremely viable for me to drop the three points in EW? i'd rather have those three points in barrage...so it'll be...

5/23/33...for bm tree the 5 points is for iaoth...MsM tree 23 points for imp barrage. and 33 points in survival for TotH.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
...is prolly better than describing it.

Can someone explain to me what the 1:1.5 rotation is?

1:1 is 1 auto, 1 special, right?

So 1:1.5 is 1 auto, 1 and half special? how does that work?

Or is it 1 auto, 1 steady + multi/arcne, then wouldn't that be 1:2?