The problem with WWS is that it won't show procs that occur while you already have the buff up. So essentially it's pretty useless in determining if IAotH is proc'ing enough. There is no internal cooldown on IAotH since i've seen it proc many times in a row. However, it's pretty much down to luck there.

Interesting point you made. How much dps is lost in a raid if for example one of your misdirects at the start misses, or on fights where burst dps is important, you miss one or more of your shots? Looking statistically after a certain point hit rating does seem to have diminishing returns, and while the spreadsheet may indicate that you will gain a slight increase in damage with more agility for example. The fact of the matter remains that hit rating is way more important until you have reach the hit cap appropriate for your raid group composition.

Missing a shot on MD won't affect anything other than someone waiting to MD after you groaning.

I follow the logic I think. I'll try returning to a 0/20/41 in the near future. I always cringe a little taking off my DST I've been milking that trinket for so long and it did so well as BM that it's a hard habit to break.

Re: Hit rating, I value being capped enough that I stay capped at a loss of around 3-4dps that I could gain by gemming that last socket with agility instead of hit. I think it's worth it to know that you won't run into the 1/500 chance or so of missing when you really need it. These situations are few and far between, but they do come up (maybe when tranq shot is needed in ZA for example).

Re: 2:1 rotation at lower gear levels. I would love to switch to this, but I also see chain steadies constantly. It is not because of damage pushback or anything of that sort, either. I was under the impression that the reason it can happen is that there is not enough room at the end of a steady, before the GCD is up, for the auto shot to fire unless you have some minimal level of haste. Is that not the case, i.e. should my quiver be enough to stop this? If so, why do I still see chaining?

As it is, I'm 20/41, and start the fight with rapid fires, then a haste pot, so I am using /cast/cast a lot of the time anyway. I do switch to 1:1.5 when all of my sources of haste are on cooldown, though.

You don't have to take off your DST. It's required for 7/20/34 but it's not bad for 0/20/41.

Without a doubt, Multi-shot will apply EW to any mob on which it crits. I consistently have off-tanks comment on noticing it.

I wouldn't say "required" but more a "nice to have".

Quiver is not enough to stop it, however quiver plus Shivering Felspine is. I say that from experience and I just realised I don't actually know why it is the case either.

I've got a feeling it's something with hasted casts.

I think I've wrapped my head around the basics of how the /cast /cast mechanics work enough to rewrite my shot rotations section some. Hopefully what I have now makes more sense. Honestly I think the name /cast /cast is too unwieldy so in my guide I'm calling it a heavy steady rotation (which in my opinion is a good name for it since you're basically choosing to go heavy on your steadies at the expense of your auto shots).

I'm still trying to figure out though when 7/20/34 would be better than 0/20/41 though. If I'm using the calculator properly, even at a 2.8 speed weapon, you would need 250 haste rating to get down to the 2.1 drawspeed. That doesn't seem realistic for any survival hunter without giving up a lot of stats. Yet I'm seeing a lot of high end survival hunters using 7/20/34. Are they basically aiming for the 2.1 drawspeed with quick shots up? It looks like with a 2.9 I'd need about 70 haste (not accounting for latency) to reach 2.1 with quick shots up so I'm wondering if that's where the 80-100 haste numbers have been coming from?

Looking at WWS I averaged about 25% of the boss fights with a quickshots proc up on Sunday in Hyjal, not sure if that's higher than I should be expecting or normal. So going 0/20/41 I would give up that 25% quickshots bringing me to 3:2 (assuming I had sufficient haste) and 2% damage bonus, in exchange for gaining 1 more point in thrill of the hunt, one more rapid fire per 5 minutes (which realistically is probably less due to threat concerns), and master tactician. Master tactician it looks like would have been up about 37% of the fights (this is assuming it procs off all shots which I think it does, I'm not really back converting for the number of shots quick shots gained me though so realistically it would be less). So I guess the question is, is 10% crit for 37% of a fight and one more rapid fire more damage than 15% haste for 25% of a fight and 2% flat damage increase? It sounds like it would be but with 7/20/34 being so popular I'm wondering what I'm missing.

Thank you everyone for all the input you've been sending by the way. I'm continuting to integrate suggestions as I have time (and I did add in the leather items I had missed). Does anyone have more accurate numbers for the AP to dps conversion for hunters than what I gleaned with my inept skill at using Cheekys?

How did you get the 25% up time for Quick Shots? I ask because I know WWS does not show individual procs.

Stating it's required for 7/20/34 is a bit harsh to say the least.

WWS of a recent Brut kill.

Things to note:
- 1 person with drums
- 1 bloodlust
- 108 haste
- No DST

Other:
- No MS warrior
- No meteor slash damage
- Used Ilidan bow

From the number of shots fired you can see it is a very clean 3:2 steady:auto ratio.

To share my personal experience with steady chains, anecdotal as it may be - switching to 108 haste from 78 I used to have made steady chains a lot less of a problem. If they do happen I find a multi or an arcane solves the problem quickly (downranked if mana is a problem)

Knowing full well the spreadsheet isn't the "final word", it shows Imp AoH up-time for me to be 37%. This is without taking into consideration the added chance to proc from drums, haste pots or heroisms. I have yet to figure out a "reliable' method for measuring actual up-times. Suffice to say, my UI is set up to display this proc prominently and 25% feels a little low. Or maybe that's just my wishful thinking...

Well the spreadsheet numbers are probably more accurate than what I'm getting, although I assume the uptime would depend to some degree on how many autoshots you're getting off per minute which would be a factor of haste and weapon speed and how much time you spend hasted by other effects.

hay, nice DPS dude.

Just a few questions about gear.

Did you use Berserker's Call + Talisman of Swiftness? If so, was this because you have not got Madness of the Betrayer? Or because this works better for you? Or maybe because with the new T6 bits you have, you feel the armor ignore proc is not as worthwhile as the AP from Berserker's/Swiftness?

Were you hit capped?

Did you use Elixir of Demon slaying?

I only ask because i recently got my best personal DPS on Brutallus of 1998,
Wow Web Stats

I had LoTP, and a resto shaman dropping agi. No heroism.

group = war tank - pala tank - me - resto shammy - feral druid.

Shammy put into melee group to pop heroism. Using wind serpent LB + KC

Using the badge bow (even tho i have illidan and archi bows, i wanted to test this) and the haste cloak from ZA, and the crafted Sunwell haste ring.So 3.36% haste.
Along with Madness of the Betrayer and Tsunami Talisman.
-----------------

Now i have the polearm, and will drop the badge bow for the Illidan / Archimonde bow. which gives me a nice 2.48 AS.
The World of Warcraft Armory

I tested this last night on Brutallus and it was a noticeable drop in DPS. Like 200 DPS less on average, sometimes 300.

I did have quite a bit of lag for some reason, and this was causing a lot more chain steady shots than usual. And so that would account for some of the loss.

Can you see anything i'm doing wrong? Or overlooking?

Thanks in advance for any ideas

Hey There
I have recently specced from MS to Surv for the good of the raid I thought.

Well, I was pleasently surprised that I do at least 75-100 more personal DPS with exactly the same shot rotation macro that I tried and tested as MS, with the same gear:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Still waiting for Archi to drop the bow for some extra crit (sod won't drop after 10 kills)...but, anyway - I was wondering at which point other maybe more experienced SV hunters would suggest I switch to a 1:1 rotation and leave out the arcane shot.

I realise that I need to add some haste and change my talents to include 5/5 Aoth but what GCD speed should I be aiming for? 2.1 secs seems a little excessive tbh. Any suggestions on a tried and tested number that has worked for you?

Do I just use different trinkets like Dragonspire trophy and get some sort of rotation working with Rapid Fire and Haste Potions?

Also, when I do hit the magical attack speed, what should my macro look like? I have tried creating a /cast /cast macro and tested on Dr BOOM but I don't seem to be able get it right - would someone mind sharing?

Cheers

Onions

P.S. Sorry if this has all been answered already - I did read the first 30 pages or so though :p

I've finally got my DST yesterday.

However, noticed that when I plugged DST into spreadsheet replacing Talisman of swiftness it showed a slight decrease in dps (I'm running 7/20/34, 80 passive haste, T6x4, 3.0 bow. The World of Warcraft Armory)

I went to Mr. Boom and did some tests,
15 runs for each trinket (around 120 seconds each run, not using HM) and the dps difference is not significant if any.

I'm wondering, while I do not doubt the consensus that DST is the holy grail of 2:1/3:2/1:1, is there a certain gear threashhold such that, below that point, haste does not scale so well and I'm better off using talisman of swiftness?
Or DST is supposed to be superior regardless and I'm missing something?

They're the only trinkets I have and they work well for me. Madness is great because it allows you to gem for more agi, on the other hand the proc from the talisman is awesome for this spec so either way you have a good trinket.

I was at 8,64% hit, used an AP flask.

1998 is very solid for your setup, if you're seeing a drop with a better bow then try again with less lag and don't skimp on the haste pots. You should really be aiming at 3 haste pots per kill if you're serious about it.

In any case nothing beats personal experience, different things work for different people. I personally find the badge xbow to be absolute rubbish for any setup or spec however it seems to work well for others.

Yeah, thats what i thought.

Just nice to get some verification from others.

Think i'm going to go with Madness of the Betrayer and Talisman of Swiftness, after seeing a few WWS reports of people using it, it seems to be proc'ing like 20+ times on a brut kill (which ofc doesnt include overlaps) which to me seems pretty nice.

That and 81 haste rating which gives me a 2.48 AS with the Archi bow. 93 hit rating (8.90%) i did consider 106 haste but i lose more 17 hit rating swapping cloaks to get haste, and in turn lose crit swapping neck to get hit back. So im gonna go with this for now. and then try the 106 haste setup if we wipe a few times :P

In my mind this seem the best overall, will see on sunday when we go to brutallus and maybe my crit will be normal (was 10-15% down on recount / wws on the atempts where i said i lost a lot of DPS) and lag issues sorted. And get some proper tests done.

There is a "sweet spot" in my mind, which im after, and is the reason i make these posts to compare with others.
Exactly what i thought aswell, then i did a test with it and a small amount of haste, and broke my personal best by 120 DPS. Which is still bugging me even now :P

Cheers - that was exactly the information what I was looking for.

Couple of things that have been a cause of tremendous confusion for me...

I've been running some test on Dr. Boom for the last few nights and I've been consistently putting down higher numbers with 2.9 Sunfury bow with 37 static haste and a 3:2 macro. (Draw speed 2.46). I've tried the 1:1.5 Macro since my pull speed is still above 2.1 sec as recommended more than a few times throughout this thread but to no avail. I always did more DPS just sticking to the 3:2 macro which is contrary to what I've been reading. What am I missing?

I've also tried using a slower 3.0 Zul'Jin bow with 37 static haste bringing me down to a 2.55 draw speed which did nearly as well as the Sunfury bow but still consistently lower in sustained dps. Again the numbers using a 3:2 acro for this set up was always higher than using a 1:1.5 macro.

Lastly, after determining (at least in my case) that the Sunfury bow with 37 Haste and a 3:2 Macro was my highest dps and firing off a relatively tight 2:1 (steady steady auto) rotation, I went off to do some farming only to find out that now that my pet is involved in the equation, Kill Command, and Lightning Breath appear to be delaying my auto shots big time a la 4 steadies before one auto shot would finally fire right after a kill command goes off. I tried creating two separate macros so that the Kill Command and Lightning Breath were separate from the basic 3:2 macro but once again to no avail. My auto shot were still grotesquely delayed inevitably killing my dps. What the hell is going on?!

Sidenote: All of the highest dps numbers were achieved with a 0/20/41 spec. I do have a DST but my best DPS numbers were achieved without it equipped (should I respec and re-equip this?), also I've been saving for the Crossbow of Relentless strikes. Is it worthwhile for Survival? or is it a big no no? I don't imagine I'll be seeing 80+ Haste anytime soon so would the xbow be a fix for that?

Thanks for all the help

While that's very nice, you would probably do more damage as 0/20/41 and that's why I said it was required for 7/20/34.
What required means in this case is that having a DST makes it worth speccing out of 0/20/41 and into 7/20/34, not that you can't do respectable dps without a DST, just that your dps would probably be higher as 0/20/41 given you do not have a DST.