Is the link to my armory...I did like 1950 DPS on Brut in a group with 2 BM hunters, a pally with drums, and a priest. I also had a Bloodlust switched in.
I think I had WAY to many steadys compared to autos...and i know it gimped my DPS. With my spec, gear, haste should I be still jamming a 1:1.5, or should I be spamming 3:2?
What is this 2:1 I read about?
Also, are there thoughts on surv hunters stacking haste and using a fast weapon? i also have a bristleblitz...should i be using that?
You've got the perfect spec, enough haste, and a DST for 3:2. You should definitely be using the /cast /cast macro over a clipped 1:1.5. With a 2.8 speed and 97 haste, your various draw speeds should be:
2.29
1.99 with IAotH proc
1.91 with DST proc
1.66 with both
The /cast /cast macro simply adapts to your draw speed, it can shoot a 2:1 (steady steady auto, which you will shoot while unhasted from procs), a 3:2 (steady steady auto steady auto, when either IAotH or DST procs), or a 1:1 (steady auto, when both proc). Below is a nice chart to use to see what speeds will shoot which rotation.
You're a bit faster than a true 3:2 for both DST and IAotH procs, but close enough. A nice plus is with both procs, you're down to almost a perfect 1:1. But if you're in a drum rotation, it will probably end up being too fast for most rotations, and you should use [Bristleblitz Striker]. Either way you should do some testing by yourself on Dr. Boom to see which bow is better, because it is pretty close with either bow. But DEFINITELY use a /cast /cast macro, instead of 1:1.5. With a 1:1.5 you're wasting all that haste, not making full use out of IAotH, DST, or the t6 4pc.
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 2 of 4
Results and Observations for the 0/20/41 Build with a 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provided the most DPS at 1660.24 than the b) at 1649.80 (-10.44) and c) at 1631.57 (-28.67) trinket groups and with only -0.10 EW uptime (=> -0.28 EW AP => -0.56 raid DPS). Thus, the base a) trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 10.44 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- Throughout the whole haste range, trinket set a) out performs trinket set b) with having the same EW uptime. Thus, trinket set b) is not involved in the additional discussion for this rotation.
- DPS and EW uptime both increase with haste until around about 135 HR (2.21 weapon speed) for trinket sets a) and b). At this point the rotation becomes tight and any additional haste provides no benefit to those rotations. At this haste cap, the a) trinket set provides 1688.68 DPS and 91.81 EW Uptime, while trinket set c) has 1685.40 DPS (-3.28) and 92.28 EW uptime (+0.47% => +1.30 EW AP => +2.60 raid DPS) for only -0.68 overall DPS.
- Trinket set c) continues to increase in both DPS and EW uptime after the haste cap for the other trinket sets. This is because the DST procs are using the 1:1 rotation, which is still affected by haste after 135 HR. It continues to increase until about 295 HR, at which point DPS and EW uptime are roughly constant at 1715.00 (+26.32) and 92.69 (+0.88% => 2.44 EW AP => 4.88 raid DPS) for +32.2 DPS over what trinket set a) provides at all HR greater than 295.
- Overall for this rotation, the a) trinket set is the best theoretically. It is better unhasted and when affected by haste drums. Trinket set c) will be better only if under haste effects of greater than 295 HR such as haste potions, rapid fires, and heroisms/bloodlust for roughly 50% of your DPS time with assuming perfect switching between the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 when the DST procs and fades.
1.1.4 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, this rotation is the same as the 1:1.5 except that it already has an extra “auto-steady shot” before the multishots. The a) trinket set provided the most DPS at 1663.30 than the b) at 1654.06 (-9.24) and c) at 1633.83 (-29.47) trinket groups and with only -0.07 EW uptime (=> -0.19 EW AP => -0.38 raid DPS). Thus, the base a) trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 9.24 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- Unhasted, trinket set a) also outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation by +3.06 DPS and +0.12 EW Uptime (=> +0.33 EW AP => +0.66 raid DPS) for +3.72 overall DPS. Note that without the 27 HR from my bracers that the 1:1.4 rotation would have initially been outperformed by the 1:1.5.
- Throughout the whole haste range, trinket set a) out performs trinket set b) with having the same EW uptime. Thus, trinket set b) is not involved in the additional discussion for this rotation.
- Trinket set a) continues to grow steadily with haste rating until the rotation becomes “tight” at about 135 HR, at which point it has about 1730 DPS and 92.45 EW uptime. After 135 HR, both DPS and EW uptime continue to increase but at a much slower rate with about 1775 DPS and 93.04 EW uptime at 1000 HR.
- Trinket set c) continues to grow steadily with haste rating until about 295 HR, at which point it has about 1760 DPS and 93.30 EW uptime. After 295 HR, both DPS and EW uptime continue to increase but at a much slower rate with about 1782 DPS and 93.57 EW uptime at 1000 HR. It catches up to trinket set a) in overall DPS at about 205 HR with at 1000 HR providing about +7 DPS and +0.53 EW uptime for about +10 overall DPS.
- Overall for this rotation, the a) trinket set is the best theoretically once again. It is better unhasted and when affected by haste drums. Trinket set c) will be better only if under haste effects of greater than 205 HR such as haste potions, rapid fires, and heroisms/bloodlust for roughly 75% of your DPS time with assuming perfect switching between the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 when the DST procs and fades to make up for the much larger DPS gap when unhasted or with just drums.
- Overall, the 1:1.4 rotation outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation. Not only does it start out with about 3.7 more DPS, it does increasingly more DPS throughout the whole haste range. At the 80 HR of drums it provides about +36 DPS. At the 400 HR of a Haste Potion, it provides about +70 DPS. For a Rapid Fire, it provides about +87 DPS. The 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) is now the new base rotation with:
DPS: 1663.30
SPS: 0.99
EW Uptime: 91.51% (253.71 average EW AP or 507.42 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2170.73
2:1
- Unhasted, this rotation does between -90 and -100 DPS across all 3 trinket sets compared to the 1:1.4 rotation.
- This rotation is only mildly affected by haste throughout the whole range of haste. It increases throughout the whole haste range of 0 to 1000 haste by only 40 DPS from about 1573 to 1612 for trinket sets a) and b) and by about 90 DPS from 1565 to 1654 for trinket set c).
- Trinket set b) initially is the best trinket set and consistently leads trinkets set a) by between 0.5 to 1.5 DPS. Trinket set c) starts off about -8.3 DPS but +0.43 EW uptime for about -6 DPS. However, trinket set c) passes up set b) by about 40 HR and continues to increasingly outperform it throughout the rest of the haste range with doing +49 DPS at 1000 HR.
- This rotation underperforms the 1:1.4 over its complete range of haste. When the 1:1.4 slows down at 135 haste rating, it is doing +138 DPS over the 2:1, and at 1000 haste, the 2:1 is still 128 DPS behind the 1:1.4.
- EW Uptime is generally always greater than 1% more over the whole haste range with the 1:1.4 than with the 2:1.
- Conclusion is that the 2:1 rotation is always inferior to 1:1.4 rotation and should never be used with a 0/20/41 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
3:2:
- The best trinket set for the 3:2 throughout the whole range of haste is set c) since DST procs a lot. Hence, numbers provided will be for this trinket set.
- Unhasted, this rotation does 1536.52 (-127) personal DPS with 90.09% (-0.61) EW uptime, resulting in -130 DPS compared to the 1:1.4.
- As haste increases, the DPS and EW uptime of this rotation increases steadily until about 300 haste. At this point, the rotation does 1722.23 DPS (-22.05) with 92.91% (+0.27) EW uptime, resulting in about -20 overall raid DPS relative to the 1:1.4. Over the rest of the haste range from 250 haste to 1000 haste, this rotation improves only slightly to about 1741 (-34) DPS with 93.16% (+0.12) EW uptime for about -33 overall DPS at 1000 HR.
- Thus, the 3:2 rotation provides no net benefit over the 1:1.4 and should not be used at all with the 0/20/41 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
1:1:
- Unhasted, the 1:1 rotation starts between 232 and 269 DPS and between 3.28 and 4.46 EW uptime (between 18 and 25 EW DPS) below the 1:1.4 rotation over the three trinket sets. As haste increases, the both DPS and EW uptime improve rapidly. The 1:1 rotation surpasses the 1:1.4 rotation in overall DPS around 430 haste rating. At 1000 HR, the 1:1 does between 144 and 179 DPS and 2.12 EW uptime (12 EW DPS) better than the 1:1.4 rotation. Thus, the 1:1.4 rotation should be used for all total haste effects less than 430 haste rating, and the 1:1 should be used for total haste effects above it.
- The “best” trinket set for the 1:1 varies with haste rating between trinket set a) and c). Trinket set b) is always inferior to one or the other, so it is dropped from the 1:1 analysis. Initially, trinket set c) is better than set a) by about 36 total DPS since the 1:1 rotation is very lose with plenty of room for the DST to improve it. By the 430 HR at which the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.4, trinket set c) still leads by about 17 overall DPS. Set a) and c) do equivalent DPS at around 515 haste rating. At 1000 HR, set a) does about 36 more total DPS. Thus, trinket set a) is the best choice for the 1:1 rotation since during the majority of the range for which it is better than the 1:1.4, it outperforms set c) and since set a) is the preferred for the 1:1.4.
Recommendation for the 0/20/41 Build with 2.8 Base Ranged weapon Speed
Use the 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) as the base rotation when unhasted and when under haste effects of less than 430 haste rating and then use the 1:1 rotation for haste effects greater than 430. Do not use the 1:1.5, 2:1, or 3:2 rotations at all since they will always provide worse overall DPS compared to the preferred rotations.
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 3 of 4
Results and Observations for the 7/20/34 Build with a 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provided the most DPS at 1680.44 than the b) at 1670.78 (-9.66) and c) at 1662.48 (-17.96) trinket groups and with only -0.28 EW uptime -1.55 raid DPS). Thus, the base a) trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 9.66 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- Throughout the whole haste range, trinket set a) out performs trinket set b) by a minimum of 7 DPS with having the same EW uptime. Thus, trinket set b) is not involved in the additional discussion for this rotation.
- DPS and EW uptime both increase with haste until around about 135 HR (2.21 weapon speed) for all trinket sets. At this point the base rotation becomes tight for trinkets set a) and any additional haste provides no benefit to its base rotations, although trinket set c) still receives benefits from haste from the 1:1 used during DST procs. However, sets DPS and EW uptime do not become stagnate since the 1:1.4 rotation used during the Quickshot procs continues to tighten slightly under haste. At this 135 HR, trinket set c) becomes the best trinket set.
- At about 185 haste rating, the 1:1 rotation becomes better for use during Quickshot procs so DPS and EW uptime start to increase more rapidly with haste again.
- At about 390 haste rating a “wall” is hit for all trinket sets after which DPS and EW uptime improvements are small. At 390 HR, trinket set a) actually catches set c) in DPS but still trails slightly in EW uptime for about -2.5 overall DPS. At 390 HR, set c) does 1779 DPS with 91.61 EW uptime.
- Over the last 610 haste rating, DPS only increases by about 3 with 0.04 EW uptime improvement.
- Overall for this rotation, the a) trinket set or c) may be the best theoretically. a) is better unhasted and when affected by haste drums. Trinket set c) will be better only if under haste effects of greater than 135 HR such as haste potions, rapid fires, and heroisms/bloodlust for roughly 50% of your DPS time with assuming perfect switching between the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 when the DST procs and fades.
- Compared to the 1:1.4 rotation for the 0/20/41 build, the results are a little complicated due to the differing nature of how the two build/rotation sets are affected over the haste range and the much greater EW uptime for the 0/20/41 build.
- At 0 HR, the 0/20/41 1:1.4 provides about -6 DPS compared to trinket set a). However, the baseline rotation quickly surpasses these 1:1.5 rotations by about 10 HR with doing about +31 DPS at the 80 HR of drums. At about 175 HR, the benefits of the 0/20/41 max out at about +37 DPS after which these 1:1.5 rotations start to gain ground again until they catch the 0/20/41 rotation at about 325 HR. The 1:1.5 rotations increasingly pull ahead until a maximum of +21 DPS at 395 HR. From that maximum at 395, the 0/20/41 1:1.4 narrows the gap with roughly catching back up at about 700 HR. For the last 300 HR, the rotations/builds are roughly identical in overall DPS.
- Due to this complex back and forth between the best 0/20/41 rotation and these rotations, it is really hard to quantify which is better. Considering that typical haste amounts besides drums slightly favor these 1:1.5 rotations, I would have to slightly favor them as the better DPS choice. However, since the DPS gain is small and not uniform, I personally would still prefer the 0/20/41 build for the additional utility from Readiness, but that is my personal preference.
1.1.4 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Trinket set a) outperforms sets b) and c) throughout the whole haste range, so they will not be included in the remainder of the analysis for this rotation.
- Throughout the whole haste range, this rotation outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation in both DPS and EW uptime. So the comparison over the rest of this analysis will be against the 0/20/41 1:1.4 (called base).
- Compared to base, unhasted, this rotation 1686 DPS with 89.66 EW uptime for about +12 DPS.
- With just about 10 HR, the base rotation starts to outperform this rotation due to the much better EW uptime of the base. The maximum benefit of the base is achieved at about 110 HR at about +7.5 overall DPS. This small gain is nullified shortly after 185 HR when the 1:1 rotation becomes better for Quickshots.
- At about 395 HR, this rotation start to slow down its gains in DPS and EW uptime with haste. At 395 HR, it does about 1825 DPS with 91.80 EW uptime for +80 DPS over the base.
- At 1000 HR, this rotation does 1839 DPS with 91.97 EW uptime for +70 DPS over the base as the base slightly gains a little back.
- Thus, overall the 7/20/34 1:1.4 rotation outperforms the 0/20/41 1:1.4 rotation. It is superior when unhasted and for all haste effects except for drums. The 7/20/34 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) is now the new base rotation with:
DPS: 1685.66
EW Uptime: 89.66% (248.58 average EW AP or 497.16 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2182.82
2:1
- Trinket set c) outperforms trinket sets a) and b) through the whole range of haste and will be used for the remainder of the analysis for this rotation.
- This rotation experiences modest gains in DPS and EW uptime with haste until 105 HR at which the best Quickshot rotation changes from 3:2 to 1:1. After 105 HR, the gains are a little larger until 395 HR after which the gains are small over the remainder of the haste range.
- Compared to the base rotation, this rotation does about -95 DPS unhasted. At about 400 HR, it does about -110 DPS. At 1000 HR, it still does about -110 DPS since the improvements in both rotations are mostly from the common 1:1 Quickshots.
- Conclusion is that the 2:1 rotation is always inferior to 1:1.4 rotation and should never be used with a 7/20/34 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
3:2:
- The best trinket set for the 3:2 is any. Each trinket set leads over some portion of the haste range, and they all stay with +/-10 DPS of each other. Sets a) and b) stay within +/-2 DPS with a leading until 395 HR and them b) the rest of the way. c) is the best choice until 395 HR and then is passed by a) and b). So pretty much personal preference or depending on how much of your DPS time you are going to be over 395 HR.
- Compared to the base rotation, this rotation does about -105 DPS unhasted. At about 400 HR, it does about -43 DPS. At 1000 HR, it still does about -37 DPS since the improvements in both rotations are mostly from the common 1:1 Quickshots.
- Thus, the 3:2 rotation provides no net benefit over the 1:1.4 and should not be used at all with the 0/20/41 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
1:1:
- Unhasted, the 1:1 rotation starts at best -195 DPS compared to the base. As haste increases, the both DPS and EW uptime improve rapidly. The 1:1 rotation surpasses the 1:1.4 rotation in overall DPS around 430 haste rating. At 1000 HR, the 1:1 does between +89 DPS relative to the base. Thus, the 1:1.4 rotation should be used for all total haste effects less than 430 haste rating, and the 1:1 should be used for total haste effects above it.
- The “best” trinket set for the 1:1 varies with haste rating between trinket set a) and c). Trinket set b) is always inferior to one or the other, so it is dropped from the 1:1 analysis. Initially, trinket set c) is better than set a) by about 36 total DPS since the 1:1 rotation is very lose with plenty of room for the DST to improve it. By the 430 HR at which the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.4, trinket set c) has been surpassed by set a) by about 17 overall DPS. Thus, trinket set a) is the best choice for the 1:1 rotation since during the whole range for which it is better than the 1:1.4, it outperforms set c) and since set a) is the preferred for the 1:1.4.
Recommendation for the 7/20/34 Build with 2.8 Base Ranged weapon Speed
Use the 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) as the base rotation when unhasted and when under haste effects of less than 430 haste rating and then use the 1:1 rotation for haste effects greater than 430. Do not use the 1:1.5, 2:1, or 3:2 rotations at all since they will always provide worse overall DPS compared to the preferred rotations.
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 4 of 4
Overall Recommendation for 2.8 Base Ranged weapon Speed
From the previous information provided, one might arrive at the conclusion that the 7/20/34 build with 1:1.4 rotation under 430 HR and 1:1 above it would be best. But that is not necessarily the case since the above analysis neither compared every rotation against each other nor compared the specs over the rotations that are best over each haste region.
In fact, when comparing the recommendation for the 0/20/41 and 7/20/34 builds, there are 3 switches in regions for which is better. Unhasted, the 7/20/34 is better by about 12 DPS. By 20 HR, the 0/20/41 build starts to perform better with benefits hitting a maximum of about +8 DPS at 135 HR. At about 210 HR, the 7/20/34 becomes better again and continues to increase relatively to a maximum of about 70 DPS at 395 HR. By 605 HR, the 0/20/41 build becomes better and remains better with +34 DPS at 1000 HR.
Thus, which build is better depends on in which haste regions your normally operate. The 7/20/34 build is better unhasted, but adding an additional haste item can make the 0/20/41 build be better unhasted as well as for drums. The 7/20/34 build is better for Haste Potions and Bloodlusts alone or Haste Potions with Haste Drums. The 0/20/41 build is better for any Rapid Fire, and Bloodlusts combined with any other haste effect.
My plan if I am still using a 2.8 base speed ranged weapon when I get the four set bonus is to hopefully find an upgrade that has at least 20 HR too so that the 0/20/41 build is the best unhasted. Then considering that I am normally responsible for my own haste via drums (sometimes I get drums from another group member), haste potions (which I do not use as much as I would like since I usually need to use mana potions), and rapid fires, which Readiness allows more of, the 0/20/41 build is probably the better DPS option for me and also allows extra utility from Readiness, such as to help get the MTs initial threat up with an extra MD and manage my initial threat better with an extra FD.
Given that i will use a 23/36 or something like this
1) To those who have chosen the talent "barrage", do you think it is much better than getting improved arcane shot?
2) Do you use Multi-shot on boss fights even if there is only 1 target? If not then barrage would only be useful in mob fights like those in the hyjal waves.... right?
3) Do survival hunters use haste potions
4) Do you switch to a 3:2 Macro or another macro when firing Rapid Fire or if using haste potions?
5) Can you paste a sample of the 1.5:1 / 1:1 / 1.4:1 / 2:1 / 3:2 / ETC Macros
Given that i will use a 23/36 or something like this
1) To those who have chosen the talent "barrage", do you think it is much better than getting improved arcane shot?
2) Do you use Multi-shot on boss fights even if there is only 1 target? If not then barrage would only be useful in mob fights like those in the hyjal waves.... right?
3) Do survival hunters use haste potions
4) Do you switch to a 3:2 Macro or another macro when firing Rapid Fire or if using haste potions?
5) Can you paste a sample of the 1.5:1 / 1:1 / 1.4:1 / 2:1 / 3:2 / ETC Macros
thanks
Everything I've tried on the spreadsheet and in-game suggests that 0/20/41 is better then the 23/36 or whatever builds. Readiness is an extra Rapid Fire, which is hard to discount the value of. That said, my gut reaction is that Barrage doesn't really shine until Improved Barrage, which no EW build can afford to take, so I suppose Imp. Arcane would win by default. Though again, I'd personally choose Master Tactician/Readiness unless I had 4 pieces of T6 and some haste, which Whitefyst just covered the details of so nicely.
Being 0/20/41 Multishot is always worth casting unless there's a really really good reason not to use it, such as Crowd Control. I believe the whole point of Imp. Arcane builds is to eliminate Multishot from your damage cycle, but I'm not terribly familiar with those builds. I'm always kiting things in Hyjal when I'm not tanking dragons but Multishot is a pretty crappy AoE. Better then nothing though and Barrage would improve that slightly.
Shooting a 1.x:1, basically anything that isn't some ratio of only steadies and autos, generally means chain-chugging Fel Mana potions like they were going out of style. I would imagine some fights and raid/group makeups would let you use haste pots instead, but I would suspect those situations are extremely rare. I know the only time I haven't burnt a Fel Mana pot every 2 minutes is during farm content and then burning a haste pot wouldn't really be necessary either. For what it's worth, once I can find a haste potion recipe that isn't comically overpriced I intend to carry a stack with me "just in case" but I can't recall a situation where I could have afforded to use one, where hitting a potion of some sort was really needed.
I use the two-part /click macro for my Steady Shot in a manual rotation, and when I get haste from a Heroism/Rapid Fire/DST proc/whatever I switch to spamming the macro. Since it deals with varying amounts of haste so well, it is really nice to use. Even mashing it once works out great in a manual shot rotation since it also fires Kill Command and Lightning Breath.
I haven't seen a 1.x:1 macro that really worked well for me, so I manually fire my shots, but most of the ones I've seen are some form of a /cast /cast macro with a /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multishot or whatever thrown in somewhere. For 1:1, 2:1 and 3:2 I would recommend the Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macro which is the /click macro I mentioned that I use.
Given that i will use a 23/36 or something like this
1) To those who have chosen the talent "barrage", do you think it is much better than getting improved arcane shot?
2) Do you use Multi-shot on boss fights even if there is only 1 target? If not then barrage would only be useful in mob fights like those in the hyjal waves.... right?
3) Do survival hunters use haste potions
4) Do you switch to a 3:2 Macro or another macro when firing Rapid Fire or if using haste potions?
5) Can you paste a sample of the 1.5:1 / 1:1 / 1.4:1 Macros
thanks
1) There is nothing wrong with a Barrage build, but I do not find it ideal. You are spending 3 talent points on an ability that you use on 1 in every 10 shots if you are doing a 1:1.5 rotation or 1 in every 12 if using a 1:1.4. I would rather put those points in an ability that applies more often, like MT. For instance, if I remove 3 points from MT and put them into Barrage, I lose 17 personal DPS, 3.8 average EW AP (from loss of crit) for an additional -7.6 raid DPS, -1.5s to OOM due to less benefit from TotH from loss of crit, and less focus for my pet from GftT (DPS loss already factored in), etc.
Although many folks like it and use it, I find an IAS build an even bigger waste of talent points. Sure it provides a tight 1:1.5 rotation (depending on base weapon speed) that you can use for more DPS when CC is around than scaling back to a 1:1.3 since you can't use multi around CC for a non-IAS build. However, that is really maximizing your DPS for trash and not for bosses. Since you can already get a good 1:1.5 rotation using multishot without spending 3-5 points in IAS, since multishot should do more damage than arcane shot, and since multishot does better damage per mana than arcane shot (9.7 versus 7.73 for arcane without anhy Barrage talents), I prefer spending the points in other talents instead of IAS. For me, going to an IAS build with assuming I only need 4 points in the talent, costs me 27 personal DPS, -7.6 raid DPS from less EW uptime, and other similar loses as indicated with going with Barrage. I have no problem with switching to the lower 1:1.3 DPS rotation around trash, since it is just trash.
However, do not take my word for it. Check it out yourself.
2) Unless there is CC that I shouldn't break (and sometimes even when there is), I always use multishot on both bosses and trash. Even without Barrage talents, it is my biggest damaging shot on single targets. For me it does on average 2185 damage as compared to 1455 for arcane shot and 1860 for both auto and steady shots. Thus, everytime I use arcane shot when I could have used a multishot, I lose about 730 damage. Sure multishot costs more mana, but it is more mana efficient than arcane shot since it does more damage per point of mana spent as listed earlier.
3) You bet we do. However, unless we have good mana support in the raid or group, we are usually more mana constricted than BM hunters, especially if we have IHM instead of Efficiency or if our crit rate is low and doesn't generate much mana with TotH, and our ability to use haste potions may be limited by our need to use mana potions to maintain our maximum DPS rotations. So if you have mana to spare, using a haste potion (and modifying your rotation as neccessary to take advantage of it) will increase your DPS.
Personally, I usually do not get much mana support, and I have IHM instead of Efficiency to more fully buff the physical DPS targets. Thus, I do not get to use mana potions as much as I would like. However, on DPS races where I feel I need to use at least one and will have sufficient mana to do so, I will use it at the very beginning of the fight before I use my back to back rapid fires so that I will be able to use a mana potion about 2 mins into the battle.
4) Yes, under appropriate haste conditions, you should switch to the appropriate rotation that provides the maximum. For what haste rating to switch rotations at depends on your base weapon speed, your passive haste, and the current temporary haste effects you are under. Since you are in a similar weapon speed situation as I am with the badge crossbow and the BT crafted haste bracers, I would suggest an approach similar to what I have provided in some recent posts. Use a 1:1.4 rotation instead of a 1:1.5 rotation since your passive weapon speed does better with it. Maintain this rotation under all haste effects under 430 haste rating, then switch to a 1:1 rotation under haste effects greater than 430. Avoid doing the 2:1 or 3:2 since they are outperformed by the 1:1.4 below 430 haste and the 1:1 above 430 haste. So for drums only, keep up the 1:1.4. For bloodlusts or rapid fires, use a 1:1. For haste potions alone, the 1:1.4 should still be better but going to a 1:1 wouldn't lose you too much DPS.
5) There are several versions of the 3:2, 2:1, 1:1 macro throughout this post. I would prefer not to repeat them an additional time. For the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 rotations, I do not use a macro since there is no ideal macro of which I am aware that both correctly implements the rotation and is flexible with haste. What I do is use the /cast /cast 1:1 macro at all times and then hand weave in the arcane shots and multishots. To squeeze them in between a steady and a auto, I cast them over the last 0.5 seconds of the 1.5s cast of the steady shot. It takes a little practice to get used to and using an attack timer mod like Quartz or something similar helps, but once you get used to it, it becomes second nature. At least that is my preference.
If you have trouble hand-weaving, then there are several serviceable macros available already posted. The ones with /castrandom do not correctly implement the rotations but they are close enough and will perform either a pseudo 1:1.5 or 1:1.4 rotation depending on your weapon speed. The /castsequence macros will correctly perform the rotations but suffer your latency twice (on both the cast and the feedback that the previous cast was successful). If you have lower latency, they are fine. To do a 1:1.4 rotation, just take one for a 1:1.5 and add in an additional auto-steady before one of the specials.
BTW... You may want to update your armory link since your changed realms.
hi sir. can you post again the macros specially the 1:1.4 and 1:1.5? Is this different to the 1.4:1 and 1.5:1? i tried scrolling back and theres just so many variations such that i dont know anymore which is the right one.....
also, I have 764agility and 32.50% crit rating unbuffed and around 1005agility raid buffed. Is this good enough already for a survival build? Will MT still help me a lot with this crit rating?
I assume you are just entering T6 content if your agi is that low, (Not sure if this is you or not armory is being weird but if it is)
You are way over hit cap,Grab a neck that has agility, The SSO exalted one is your best option if your guild isnt killing Kael or Brutallus. Vengeful Helm is big, Daggers of Bad Mojo , Cloak of Fiends. MT is very usefull until you can get your crit up to around 36% crit unbuffed.
@Whitefyst
Great work! Looking forward to a 3.0 base speed analysis. Especially interesting are the relations between haste and spec in the conclusion. Could use a bit more emphasis on the breaking points for the more common rotations: 2:1-->3:2-->1:1 but definately a lovely read.
@Whitefyst
Great work! Looking forward to a 3.0 base speed analysis. Especially interesting are the relations between haste and spec in the conclusion. Could use a bit more emphasis on the breaking points for the more common rotations: 2:1-->3:2-->1:1 but definately a lovely read.
Will be rooting for that Bristleblitz!
Good points. I updated part 1 to include a table of haste rating values to modified weapon speeds. However, my analysis really does not care at what speeds a rotation like the 1:1 is perfect. What it cares about is at a given speed what rotation performs the best.
Hope to get the 3.0 speed analysis with Bristleblitz done sometime next week, but as a forewarning, it will not be a true 1 to 1 comparison with the 2.8 speed analysis since I will be adding in at least 63 passive haste (at least 80 total) to get to the "optimum" base weapon speed that people have determined for a 3.0 speed weapon. Thus, the gear will not be the same resulting in the numbers, even when moving that additional passive haste down my tables, will not be directly comparable, although they should provide good rough trending information.
I think someone needs to make a graph of draw speeds that depicts what rotation is best at a certain amount of haste, starting at both 2.8 and 3.0 base speeds.
No it really isnt. It doesnt look like you got burned on the fight, had two drummers in your group, got a bloodlust, and had plenty of mana. Brut was debuffed with CoR and the other usual stuff. Additionally you were in a group with other BM hunters getting their FI procs. In worse gear I do around 2350 on that fight just using the auto / steady spam macro.
edit: having said that, there are subtle things that can make your dps on a fight like that swing a decent amount. Burn being one of them but there are others. If you are consistently pulling 2k in what feels like a perfect raid environment then look into it more. Part of it might be your choice of shot rotations. Are you able to make the best use of the haste available, etc.
Given that i will use a 23/36 or something like this
1) To those who have chosen the talent "barrage", do you think it is much better than getting improved arcane shot?
2) Do you use Multi-shot on boss fights even if there is only 1 target? If not then barrage would only be useful in mob fights like those in the hyjal waves.... right?
3) Do survival hunters use haste potions
4) Do you switch to a 3:2 Macro or another macro when firing Rapid Fire or if using haste potions?
5) Can you paste a sample of the 1.5:1 / 1:1 / 1.4:1 / 2:1 / 3:2 / ETC Macros
thanks
Along these lines, someone please give me an idea of the feasibility/performance of this idea... I don't have the pvp gear to do it yet, nor have we made much progress into BT... our guild wants to kill kael and vashj before we go there... so no 4pc T6 to consider yet either. Only considering T5 gear and badge gear here:
TALENT BUILD: Take the 23/36 hybrid build (or a slight modification) and spec to improve multishot as much as possible (likely only the barrage talent +the usual other stuff).
GEAR BUILD: Here's the wierd part... since some of the pvp gear is better that a lot of the T5 gear from a straight dps point of view (assuming you have surefooted and, thus, can take the hit rating loss). GET 4pc OF ARENA GEAR, making sure to use the gloves as one of the four pieces!
BENEFITS: You have 12% increased damage to multishot from talents, you get another 5% increased damage from your gloves AND you get the multishot cooldown reduced from 10 to 9 seconds! Since I'm using the badge bow (remember we haven't killed archi or anything in BT yet) I pretty much have to shoot a 1:1.4 rotation because I shoot Just a bit too fast to get a real 1:1.5! however, the 4pc set bonus from arena gear should be enough to make the rotation 1:1.5 work again (Kind of like how the 4/5 points in IAS lets you squeeze your next arcane in one auto-steady pair sooner)!
The four Arena pieces I would use are the helm, the chest, the gloves and the shoulders... might actually take the pants since, with my low arena rating, I'll probably be doomed to only using S2 shoulders.
I also can't test this out yet as I don't have the requisite arena items to make this work and I can't really tell if Cheeky's spreadsheet properly models the reduced multishot cooldown set bonus from the gear.
This worth investigating or do I lose out on huge dps somewhere that I'm not realizing?
Along these lines, someone please give me an idea of the feasibility/performance of this idea... I don't have the pvp gear to do it yet, nor have we made much progress into BT... our guild wants to kill kael and vashj before we go there... so no 4pc T6 to consider yet either. Only considering T5 gear and badge gear here:
TALENT BUILD: Take the 23/36 hybrid build (or a slight modification) and spec to improve multishot as much as possible (likely only the barrage talent +the usual other stuff).
GEAR BUILD: Here's the wierd part... since some of the pvp gear is better that a lot of the T5 gear from a straight dps point of view (assuming you have surefooted and, thus, can take the hit rating loss). GET 4pc OF ARENA GEAR, making sure to use the gloves as one of the four pieces!
BENEFITS: You have 12% increased damage to multishot from talents, you get another 5% increased damage from your gloves AND you get the multishot cooldown reduced from 10 to 9 seconds! Since I'm using the badge bow (remember we haven't killed archi or anything in BT yet) I pretty much have to shoot a 1:1.4 rotation because I shoot Just a bit too fast to get a real 1:1.5! however, the 4pc set bonus from arena gear should be enough to make the rotation 1:1.5 work again (Kind of like how the 4/5 points in IAS lets you squeeze your next arcane in one auto-steady pair sooner)!
The four Arena pieces I would use are the helm, the chest, the gloves and the shoulders... might actually take the pants since, with my low arena rating, I'll probably be doomed to only using S2 shoulders.
I also can't test this out yet as I don't have the requisite arena items to make this work and I can't really tell if Cheeky's spreadsheet properly models the reduced multishot cooldown set bonus from the gear.
This worth investigating or do I lose out on huge dps somewhere that I'm not realizing?
The S3 hat and shoulders are pretty good for PvE (even S2 shoulders are arguably better then T5), but the gloves, pants and to a lesser extent the chest are pretty bad. I would say the badge gloves and Hydross/T5 chest and VR/T5 pants are all better then the S3 pieces in those slots. I used to use Barrage and saw nothing but a large increase in damage when I switched to MT/Readiness. That extra Rapid Fire really does more damage then the slight contribution of Barrage, and MT buffs all of your shots instead of just one from Barrage/PvP gloves/4-piece Gladiator.
Cheeky's spreadsheet certainly appears to model the glove and 4-piece Gladiator buffs to Multishot. The Calculations tab shows a 9-second Multi cooldown, and there are cells dedicated to "PvP Gloves" and "Barrage". I'd try your gear in the spreadsheet, then swap in the PvP pieces you are looking at, but my bet is it would be lower in damage then PvE gear with a 1.4:1 and 0/20/41. Though again, the S2/S3 hat and S2/S3 shoulders are pretty nice depending on what other alternatives you have for those slots.
I think someone needs to make a graph of draw speeds that depicts what rotation is best at a certain amount of haste, starting at both 2.8 and 3.0 base speeds.
*wink wink Whitefyst*
Here is a chart for the 2.8 and 3.0 weapon speed analyses. The switching values are rounded to the closest 25 HR. Close to the switching value, either rotation provides about the same benefit.
Total Haste Rating = Passive Haste Rating + Total Temporary Haste Rating
Total.....Total.........2.8........2.8..........3.0........3.0
Haste....Haste....Weapon....Best.......Weapon...Best
Rating..Percent ...Speed....Rotation....Speed...Rotation
=======================================
0..........0.00%.......2.43......1:1.5........2.61...1:1.5$/2:1^
25........1.59%.......2.40......1:1.4........2.57...................<------ 2.8 switch to 1:1.4 at about 20 HR
50........3.18%.......2.36......................2.53
75........4.78%.......2.32......................2.49...................<------ Haste Drums at 80 HR
100......6.37%.......2.29......................2.45
125......7.96%.......2.26......................2.42......3:2^.......<------ 3.0 switch from 2:1 to 3:2 around 110-120 HR
150......9.55%.......2.22......................2.38......1:1.4$*...<------ 3.0 switch to 1:1.4 around 150 HR
175......11.15%......2.19......................2.35
200......12.74%......2.16......................2.31
225......14.33%......2.13......................2.28
250......15.92%......2.10......................2.25...................<------ Quick Shots (QS) at 15%
275......17.52%......2.07......................2.22
300......19.11%......2.04......................2.19
325......20.70%......2.02......................2.16...................<------ Dragonspine Trophy (DST)
350......22.29%......1.99......................2.13
375......23.89%......1.97......................2.11
400......25.48%......1.94......................2.08...................<------ Haste Potion at 400 HR
425......27.07%......1.92......................2.05
450......28.66%......1.89.........1:1........2.03...................<------ 2.8 switch to 1:1 at about 430 HR
475......30.25%......1.87......................2.00
500......31.85%......1.85......................1.98......1:1^.......<------ 3.0 switch to 1:1 from 3:2 at about 490 HR
525......33.44%......1.82......................1.95
550......35.03%......1.80......................1.93...................<------- Bloodlust at about 550 HR also QS + DST
575......36.62%......1.78......................1.91
600......38.22%......1.76......................1.89......1:1$.......<------- 3.0 switch to 1:1 at about 610 HR
625......39.81%......1.74......................1.87...................<------- Rapid Fire at about 625 HR
650......41.40%......1.72......................1.84
675......42.99%......1.70......................1.82
700......44.59%......1.68......................1.80
725......46.18%......1.67......................1.78
750......47.77%......1.65......................1.77
775......49.36%......1.63......................1.75
800......50.96%......1.61......................1.73
825......52.55%......1.60......................1.71
850......54.14%......1.58......................1.69
875......55.73%......1.56......................1.68
900......57.32%......1.55......................1.66
925......58.92%......1.53......................1.64
950......60.51%......1.52......................1.63
975......62.10%......1.50......................1.61
1000....63.69%......1.49......................1.59
$,^ For 3.0 weapon speed, provided switch points for both the 1:1.5/1:1.4/1:1 ($) rotation set and the 2:1/3:2/1:1 (^)rotation set. with the former being preferred.
* For 3.0 weapon speed switching to the 1:1.4 varies a little on spec and whether you have the DST. It occurs a little earlier if you use the DST and have QS and a little later if you have neither.
As stated previously, having about 20 passive haste rating will allow someone with a 2.8 speed weapon to perform the 1:1.4 rotation as their unhasted rotation for maximum DPS. Having about greater than 30 passive haste rating will making using the 1:1 rotation best with Haste Potions for a 2.8 speed weapon.
For the 3.0, about 80-90 passive haste will make the 1:1.4 perform better with drums and the 1:1 perform best with bloodlust.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/17/08 at 3:02 PM.
Reason: Added 3.0 weapon speed info
ive been trying to read up from the past threads and i just cant find the damn rotations LOL
can you please post the 1:1.4 rotation?
i have 27 passive haste and im using the badge bow (2.8 speed) thus i beleive that the 1:1.4 rotation would be the best for me. I just cant find it! LOL
ive been trying to read up from the past threads and i just cant find the damn rotations LOL
can you please post the 1:1.4 rotation?
i have 27 passive haste and im using the badge bow (2.8 speed) thus i beleive that the 1:1.4 rotation would be the best for me. I just cant find it! LOL
1:1.4 is the same as a 1:1.5, only with an extra steady-auto at the end.
Is there no macro for this? Does everyone who uses 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 just hand weave them?
Also is 1:1.5 the same as 1.5:1 which others talk about? Or is it something different?
1:1.5 is the same as 1.5:1, it's just saying "auto:special" vs. "special:auto". Same shots in the same order, just written backwards, or forwards depending on your point of view.
I've never seen a macro that works well for me so I manually weave my 1:1.4, but the ones I have seen are something along the lines of
possibly with Kill Command, Lightning Breath and/or some lines to disable error sounds/text thrown in. The problem with these is that it won't always fire things in exactly the right order, but often does things "close enough". Personally these macros tended to produce fairly random results and I'm used to manually weaving shots, so I don't bother with the macro.
The other macro I've seen is some long /castsequence macro with everything written out. The problem with /castsequence is that you suffer your latency twice, since it requires confirmation from the servers before moving to the next element in the sequence, or so I've read, but it ensures everything happens in the order it is supposed to.
possibly with Kill Command, Lightning Breath and/or some lines to disable error sounds/text thrown in. The problem with these is that it won't always fire things in exactly the right order, but often does things "close enough". Personally these macros tended to produce fairly random results and I'm used to manually weaving shots, so I don't bother with the macro.
The other macro I've seen is some long /castsequence macro with everything written out. The problem with /castsequence is that you suffer your latency twice, since it requires confirmation from the servers before moving to the next element in the sequence, or so I've read, but it ensures everything happens in the order it is supposed to.
I used to use macros for the 1:1.5, 1:1.4, and 1:1.3 rotations a long time ago, but none I am aware about are ideal. After hearing folks suggesting hand-weaving, I eventually tried it out, and haven't looked back. Hand-weaving provides much better situational awareness of your rotation and ease for knowing best when to insert other casts like refreshing hunter's mark or scorpid. I also helps you better understand your rotation.
If you have very low latency though, a castsequence will enforce the rotation and still be close to max DPS.
I am a continuous reader of this thread and have would like to have your thoughts about the following:
I am currently specced 0/20/41 running with 1:1.x rotation including multi and arcane. Then using manitos macro when Rapid fire is up.
Progress wise my guild is at the first 2 bosses in BT, but I'm still using Sunfury (2.9) bow.
According to Cheeky's spreadsheet, haste will improve dps considerably. My impression was that the rotation is screwed up by adding haste with my setup, however replacing as below improves my buffed dps from 1219 to 1257:
Bands of the Celestial Archer -> Bindings of lightning reflexes
S2 shoulders -> Shoulders of lightning reflexes
Cloak of the craft -> Crystalweave cape
In total that means 90 Haste and lowers my draw speed to 2.39.
According to Whitefyst analysis, you are fine running a 1:1.4 on a 2.8 bow with 20 HR, thus 2.4 draw speed.
My question is then, will these haste items really increase my dps as the spreadsheet claims, or will it work differently in a real situation and screw my rotation up?
I am a continuous reader of this thread and have would like to have your thoughts about the following:
I am currently specced 0/20/41 running with 1:1.x rotation including multi and arcane. Then using manitos macro when Rapid fire is up.
Progress wise my guild is at the first 2 bosses in BT, but I'm still using Sunfury (2.9) bow.
According to Cheeky's spreadsheet, haste will improve dps considerably. My impression was that the rotation is screwed up by adding haste with my setup, however replacing as below improves my buffed dps from 1219 to 1257:
Bands of the Celestial Archer -> Bindings of lightning reflexes
S2 shoulders -> Shoulders of lightning reflexes
Cloak of the craft -> Crystalweave cape
In total that means 90 Haste and lowers my draw speed to 2.39.
According to Whitefyst analysis, you are fine running a 1:1.4 on a 2.8 bow with 20 HR, thus 2.4 draw speed.
My question is then, will these haste items really increase my dps as the spreadsheet claims, or will it work differently in a real situation and screw my rotation up?
If you hand-weave your rotation it will screw it up pretty bad until you get used to the new draw speed, then should produce better damage. When I went from Sunfury to the badge chicken stick, and later when I added haste I felt like I was all thumbs for a day with the speed I was used to changed, but it doesn't take much to get used to it. Once I got a feel for the new speed, the added haste increased my damage output (more of a valid result when I added haste to the chicken stick rather then coming from Sunfury since the bow dps increased from that). 1:1.4 with the extra steady-auto at the end of the cycle should produce better results then delaying a bit for multishot to come off of cooldown.
07/10/08, 4:30 PM
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