Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Hunters

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08/31/12, 9:39 PM   #181
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
For those wondering about the relative value of buffs per spec (presumably when you are short more than one and trying to decide which to prioritize), I thought I'd make a little chart. This is based off my site calculations in the T14N gearsets and assumes you have all buffs except the one specified.

Missing BuffDamageDPS Difference% Difference
SV Base82475.14  
SV Crit79161.533313.614.02
SV Attack Speed79748.352726.793.31
SV Magic Damage80470.682004.462.43
SV Mastery80662.921812.222.20
SV Weakened Armor80782.341692.802.05
SV Physical Damage809221553.141.88
BM Base89314.37  
BM Crit85501.253813.124.27
BM Mastery85641.73672.674.11
BM Attack Speed85642.473671.904.11
BM Weakened Armor86285.523028.853.39
BM Physical Damage86535.412778.963.11
BM Spell Damage88501.93812.440.91
MM Base85373.95  
MM Attack Speed81345.594028.364.72
MM Crit81694.923679.034.31
MM Weakened Armor82545.822828.133.31
MM Physical Damage82779.142594.813.04
MM Mastery83010.342363.612.77
MM Spell Damage84521.13852.821.00

Last edited by Rivkah : 09/01/12 at 1:43 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/12, 3:44 AM   #182
Nooska
King Hippo
 
Nooska's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
What races are this based on? (DPS neutral races?)

Denmark Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/12, 1:12 PM   #183
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Nooska View Post
What races are this based on? (DPS neutral races?)
Yes, these are all using a tauren with no professions, which is as neutral as you get. They were using the T14N profiles that I linked in an earlier post.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/12, 7:48 PM   #184
Eluniar
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn
As Whitefyst noted over in the "[MoP] 5.0.4/5.1 Marksmanship Guide" thread under 8.5.3 Kill Shot Phase Rotation Options (even though this is in response to a post in the Marksmanship Guide thread, I believe the information in this post to be applicable to all hunter specs) -

Also recall that although KS has a 10s CD, if it fails to kill the target, the CD resets with a 6s CD on the reset. Hence, you can theoretically do 2 KSs every 11s, but it actually takes a little longer since it takes time for the server to confirm that the target did not die before resetting the CD. Thus, I prefer to place a shot between them for 2 KSs every 12s or roughly 1 KS per 6s during this phase. This means that on average we can do 1.5 KSs per 9s CS cycle, saving us roughly 30 focus per cycle.
After reading this I decided to mess around on Ultraxion a bit to test out some different things will Kill Shot. It's true that if there were a significant amount of server latency it would affect the cooldown reset of Kill Shot, but it seems to be primarily determined by the distance our hunter shots have to travel to reach the target. The following are rough guesstimates based on LFR Ultraxion here - it appeared that when I was within normal melee distance of him (5-8 yardsish) Kill Shot refreshed immediately and was able to reliably hit the ideal 2x KS per 11 seconds as listed above. When I was about 20 yards away or so, there seemed to be about a 1 second delay between the KS fire and the KS land resetting the cooldown, and at max range (about 40 yards) there was about a 2 second delay between KS fire and cooldown reset.

With the above in mind, I would imagine it to be ideal for hunters to be within close enough range to ensure immediate KS cooldown reset during KS phase, which seems to be about 8 yards or closer. The question then becomes - is it worth hunters staying in and dealing with extra boss mechanics if they are present (such as AOE damage, movement, knockbacks, etc) for the shorter Kill Shot cooldown resets? And if it's -not- ideal for a hunter to stay sufficiently close enough, would a hunter want to stay within a specific range area to plan a certain amount of time between KS fire and KS cooldown reset to weave in another shot every time?

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/12, 9:58 PM   #185
TheRazorsEdge
Glass Joe
 
Troll Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Eluniar View Post
The question then becomes - is it worth hunters staying in and dealing with extra boss mechanics if they are present (such as AOE damage, movement, knockbacks, etc) for the shorter Kill Shot cooldown resets? And if it's -not- ideal for a hunter to stay sufficiently close enough, would a hunter want to stay within a specific range area to plan a certain amount of time between KS fire and KS cooldown reset to weave in another shot every time?
This would be highly dependent on the encounter and on your healers.

I imagine knockback would make it a DPS loss due to interrupted Steady/Cobra casts, or at least make it DPS neutral (and thus less of a heachache to just stay at range).

Even at very close range, it can take slightly more than a GCD for the shot to hit and trigger the reset.

Finally, server latency is an uncontrollable variable. I have seen KS reset almost instantaneously, and I've seen it take almost an entire extra GCD. I don't believe it is consistent enough to optimize in this way; I will probably use an instant between the KS pair.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/12, 11:30 PM   #186
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
MM before: 86220.59 (DB/LR/GT) after: 85373.95 (DB/MC/GT) - Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
First, great work on your recent updates to FD. Thanks again for all of the hard work on the site. I really rely on it.

I took your linked MM simulation and made some modifications to increase its DPS by about 770.

Note that your link currently does 85641 as is.

I got it up to 86411 with this saved setting: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer.

The changes I made for this simulation and the reasons are:

- In the Shot Priority, I moved KS before GT. KS currently does a little more single target damage than GT and costs 15 less focus to use. Furthermore, with KS having a shorter CD with "back-to-back" uses, delaying it for GT has a larger impact than delaying GT for it.

- In the Shot Priority, I moved Stampede to after RF. This ensures that the first Stampede is fully hasted and that the second Stampede becomes available closer to when the 4th RF becomes available when Readiness gets off CD. In your sim, the first Stampede is done about 3.5s before RF and 4.7s before Readiness meaning that it comes off CD for its second use about 8s before the RF resulting in the RF not fully overlapping Stampede. With the altered priority, the first Stampede is cast with RF and is fully hasted as desired. The second is cast about 2.3s before the 4th RF, which means that RF does full overlap with Stampede. Personally, I would wait the 2 to 3 seconds to cast Stampede after RF to be safe in case Stampede "snap shots" stats at it start. (I assume it does not but I do not know for sure. Have you tested this?)

- Changed the setting for "Minimum focus to cast Arcane Shot" from 67 to 61. Either way, this setting basically results in saving focus for CS without having it listed in the "Save Focus For" setting. The reason that I use 61 is that the cost of casting an AS then a CS is 20 + 45 - 4.5 (approximate focus regen over the AS GCD) = 60.5, which I round up to 61. This fine tuning allows the sim to cast a 4th consecutive AS in some situations where DB is active that the original case did not while still maintaining the CS cycle. This results in a little better use of focus with less focus capping since 3 ASs cost 60 focus but the focus regen over the 3 ASs and the 2 SSs is a little over 60 when not including latency and even a little higher with accounting for latency. Lowering this setting below 61 results in not having enough focus to cast CS on come cycles and pushes some CS cycles back since 1 or 2 SSs are needed. The Sim clearly illustrates that. Changing the setting to 61 saved enough focus to allow 6 more ASs to replace 4 less SSs.

- I did 2 regemming:

-- The first is the shoulders, which has a blue socket and a +60 agi socket bonus. Your setting puts a Delicate (+160 agi) in this socket and forgoes the socket bonus. I was confounded by this at first since it seems clear that putting in a Glinting (+80 agi and +160 hit) would be better since with the socket bonus it is -20 agi for +160 hit, which theoretically is clearly in favor of the hit. Then I realized why you did this, which is that with all of the large number of stats that it was near impossible to make this change and stay only a little bit over the hit cap. All of the options I tried that were over the cap, all were over by more than the 14 you had and was a DPS loss. I almost gave up on the gem change until I decided to see how going a little under the hit cap would affect things. With the 14 hit over cap to start and the 160 from the gem, we were 174 over cap. There are two options for removing 180 hit. The first is undoing the haste to hit reforge on the shoulders themselves. The second is the glove enchant being changed from 180 hit to 180 crit. Both options result in being 6 below the hit cap (-0.02%) but are DPS gains.

-- The boots have a +120 haste socket bonus with a yellow socket. Once again you used a Delicate (+160 agi). Using a Deft (+80 agi and +160 haste) provides a trade off of -80 agi for +280 haste, which with being a 3.5 ratio generally favors the haste. Now since this case is already at close to an ideal haste amount, adding this much haste is a loss, but some of the additional haste can be converted to crit by changing the Ring 1 reforge for a DPS gain.

- I also messed around with reforges for a bit to increase DPS more; however, some of these increases may not be real and just shot shifting.

- I also changed the "Maximum speed to cast Aimed Shot (suppressing arcane shot)" settingfrom the Cata 1.8s value to 1.4s. This did not affect the results since all AIs previously being casted were all below 1.4s. To illustrate how around 1.4s is a reasonable value, if you lower it to 1.3s, which makes the the sim cast AS instead of AI over the 2 RFs outside the CA phase, you see a minor DPS loss of only a few hundred DPS.

- One correction over previous statements that I have made is that it does now result in maximum MM DPS to overlap BL and RF affects, preferrably during the CA phase. The reason for this is the low maximum speed to cast AI. While in Cata where AIs during BL were well below the cutoff point of 1.8s resulting in a huge DPS gain, AIs during BL in MoP are currently too slow to be worthwhile casting AI. However, the increased speed to AI during the CA phase where due to AIs always critting and the cutoof point being much higher, it is a huge DPS gain currently to have faster AIs and to cast more of them. The MoP version of FD was shwoing this from the start, but I just did not believe that that could be the case until I had theorycrafted it more. What also effects the situation is that we do a lot less SSs too. Hence, we haste a lot less SSs than we used to by chaining BL and RF instead of stacking them to below the GCD.

EDIT: After looking through the shot logs and comparing it with target dummy testing, I realized another needed settings change in the Shot Priority. This is moving AI below AS. I know that this may seem counterintuitive since AI does so mcuh more damage than AS, but this priority ordering along with other settings like suppressing AS during CA phase, maximum speed to cast AI, and minimum focus to cast AS makes everything work as desired.

The settings for suppressing AS during the CA phase and the maximum speed to cast AI and suppress AS already control when we use AS or AI hard casts as the focus dump and make their use mutually exclusive such that the Shot Priority list has no impacts on the decision.

The Shot Priority list only affects the priority of the MMM AI procs versus using AS. We already know that when we get a MMM AI proc that we want to use it before the next SS cast that is not the second in a MM pair to maintain SF and before the 10s window before the buff drops. Since we should already be performing an SS pair every 10s to maintain SF, then we should always be using MMM AI procs before the expiration. This means that we do not have to use MMM AI procs right away and can put it lower in the list of other shots with CDs so that we delay the MMM AI cast (with no penalty for doing so) to avoid delaying the other shot's CD by a GCD.

The same is true for AS although it does not have a CD. MMM AI procs do not have to be cast before an AS. Whether the AS or MMM AI proc is cast first does not matter from the perspective of using the proc before it expires. By having AI higher in the priority list than AS, then MMM AI procs will always be cast before AS even if we just got done with a SS pair and will cap focus during the MMM AI GCD. By switching the priority, this situation is avoided. If we are high on focus, then AS will be cast first to help avoid focus overcapping and provide better focus utilization. if we are low enough in focus, then the Minimum Focus to Use AS setting will be in effect and will cause the MMM AI proc to be used instead of the AS. The is more ideal and better models how the shots should be cast in combat.

Last edited by Whitefyst : 09/02/12 at 12:23 AM.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/06/12, 10:20 PM   #187
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
I've made updates to support the latest beta build (16048). This only reflects changes in the patch notes- I'll have to wait till I can check on beta to see if they changed MoC to be affected by BM mastery.

The changes only affected SV. In my T14N profile, I had 82724.78 dps before and 82621.47 dps after, which is roughly a .125% dps decrease. This is still not a fully optimized profile and it's possible it actually ends up being a net single target dps increase if the shot selection is more accurate. The big difference will be making it less murky to decide whether to spend effort on explosive shot.

One consequence of this change is that it'll significantly weaken our AoE damage as SV, as such a large chunk of it comes from improved serpent sting. I'm not sure if this is a problem- I don't know how strong we are now at 90 on AoE fights and whether this makes us weak or just balances us out more (I had heard SV was fairly strong relative to the other hunter specs for AoE at 90). I'm also not sure if they addressed the issue with improved serpent sting not proccing when the duration on serpent sting is too high, which will also impact our SV AoE burst.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/12, 1:21 AM   #188
Wyxz
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Azralon
I was testing Murder of Crows which are aparently scaling with BM mastery now and something bizarre happened.

On one of glaive toss casts my damage goes from 60k to 90k of nothing. When i analize recount i saw Glaive toss doing a insane amount of damage. It happened twice, on second time i was at very beginning of combat.

I saved a SS from this time:



Glaive toss did 296 hits in 42 seconds of combat on a single target combat. It took 23% of Dummy HP.

It happens randomly, but i think is something related with Murder and Glaive Toss because every time it happened the dummy are with Murder on himself.

Probally a Glitch with Glaive Toss. Someone got a similar experience?

Update:

SS from combat log at moment of Glitch, third time happening:



More than 200 lines with Glaive Toss Damage.

Update2:

I stayed alone hitting one full health dummy till he dies, the Glaive toss Bug triggered 3 times. 943 Glaive Toss hits in a 11 minutes single target combat:



On a 11 minutes combat you can only get 176 hits from glaive toss if you use it every time when it's up.

Btw, All SS's are from Beta Client. On Lost Isles Realm at build 16048.

Last edited by Wyxz : 09/07/12 at 2:33 PM.

Brazil Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/12, 2:42 AM   #189
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
I will have to check to see if I can reproduce that glaive toss issue.

I was just testing as well- murder of crows definitely scales with BM mastery now. I also confirmed that they fixed stormlash to scale with RAP instead of melee AP (not sure if it scales with hunter's mark, the range is too large to be sure). Froststorm breath now scales with physical haste. The improved serpent sting refresh issue appears to also be fixed. I'm sure there's other stuff still that needs testing, but that's all I thought to check.

My site's been updated with the latest mechanics.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/12, 3:15 PM   #190
Wyxz
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Azralon
Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
I will have to check to see if I can reproduce that glaive toss issue.
I made a video reproducing the issue:

Glaive Toss Glitch (Build 16048) - YouTube

On first thought i believed that this glitch had something related with Glaive Toss and Murder, because the glitch started to happening when i traded lynx rush for Murder. But if you see the video every time when the bug occurred if you pay attention at Lord Blastington's Scope of Doom the buff refreshs the duration constantly while the glitch are up. And the glitch only trigger when my Glaive Toss cast procs the Lord Blastington's Scope of Doom buff.

I thought that maybe can be a bugged dummy issue, i tried to dps the dummy upstairs near the entrace of enchant trainers/Tier 4 and 5 exchange NPCS of Scryer's tier and the glitch still happening.

Video has been recorded at Beta Client, Lost Isles Realm at build 16048.

Last edited by Wyxz : 09/07/12 at 3:24 PM.

Brazil Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/13/12, 5:34 PM   #191
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
I want to mention one thing that I am a little concerned with about the current hunter specs, which is the lack of synergy. This has always been a problem, but it appears to be even more of a problem with how the specs differ so much in the stat preference relative to the top DPS spec.

Using Zeherah's profiles for each of the three specs on FD, I see the following stat priorities for optimal DPS in the T14 gear:

BM: Mastery >> Crit > Haste
MM: Haste >> Crit >> Mastery
SV: Crit > Haste >> Mastery

With BM being the best DPS spec atm, its high mastery gearing does not work well with the gear priorities for ther other 2 specs. However, when I did some testing in FD with converting from a primary spec to a secondary spec, I was a little surprised with some of the results.

In these settings the DPS for each with using the "optimal" reforging is (note that these DPS settings are with using a Tauren (so racial independent) and no profressions chosen):

BM: 84451
MM: 82554
SV: 82436

However, there are large impacts with switching specs with the reforges for the initial spec. Here is what I see:

BM to MM: 81302 (-1242 DPS from MM)
BM to SV: 79537 (-2899 DPS from SV)
MM to BM: 83791 (-660 DPS from BM)
MM to SV: 81692 (-744 DPS from SV)
SV to BM: 85247 (+796 DPS from BM)
SV to MM: 83204 (+772 DPS from MM)

Now I expected some incorrectness in the comparison since these set-ups may not be 100% optimal (I know the MM setting was not 100% optimal); however, I was completely surprised by the fact that the SV set up was much better for both BM and MM then their set ups.

Looking at the difference between the MM and SV settings, the major difference is 1400 less haste for that much more crit. As it works out, the amount of haste for the SV setting is close to the 9.09% needed for a tight 2 SS CS cycle with the T14 4P, so it was at one of the MM sweet spots for haste.

What this tells me is that the set ups we have been looking at to compare DPS between the specs in FD are not optimal and that we really have to rethink the mastery is king concept for BM DPS, especially early in MoP when natural crit amounts is lower and the extra crits resulting in more GftT procs and higher pet basic attack frequency and higher WH uptime may be more important than the mastery. Also the higher focus regen from haste on gear may be valued more initially too.

What I would suggest is for Zeherah to please start a Maximize DPS in FD thread with posting her current best setups for each spec for both the true optimal case and the optimal case with no racials and common professions (by this any 2of the set that provides about equal benefits). That way we can leverage the community's insights on how to optimize the hunter specs within FD and hopefully result with a better baseline for comparison.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/14/12, 2:00 AM   #192
Lokrick
Piston Honda
 
Orc Hunter
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by Whitefyst View Post
I want to mention one thing that I am a little concerned with about the current hunter specs, which is the lack of synergy. This has always been a problem, but it appears to be even more of a problem with how the specs differ so much in the stat preference relative to the top DPS spec.

Using Zeherah's profiles for each of the three specs on FD, I see the following stat priorities for optimal DPS in the T14 gear:

BM: Mastery >> Crit > Haste
MM: Haste >> Crit >> Mastery
SV: Crit > Haste >> Mastery
...

What I would suggest is for Zeherah to please start a Maximize DPS in FD thread with posting her current best setups for each spec for both the true optimal case and the optimal case with no racials and common professions (by this any 2of the set that provides about equal benefits). That way we can leverage the community's insights on how to optimize the hunter specs within FD and hopefully result with a better baseline for comparison.
When I originally built the simc profiles, I used Crit > Mastery > Haste for BM. That remains in the Raid Dummy sim and T13H profiles. The T14 gearsets don't keep that same priority (e.g., BM T14 prioritizes mastery as you say).

At this point, we have a pretty high confidence in both simc and femaledwarf for accurately simming a profile. The next step really is improving the profiles for both simc and femaledwarf. I know that for both Zeherah and I, most of our available time at this point goes to tool development (e.g., I need to add stampede glyph, aoe sim support, etc.). So realistically, other people will need to start and drive those threads.

I only just discovered a nice enhancement Zeherah made to help move between the tools: the debug info in femaledwarf includes an export of the simc gear and talent profile. Plug them into with an (optional) action list if you need finer control over the sim or actions (e.g., you want to simulate vs. a particular sequence of raid events and movement, or just look at CA phase).

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/14/12, 9:32 AM   #193
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by Lokrick View Post
The next step really is improving the profiles for both simc and femaledwarf. I know that for both Zeherah and I, most of our available time at this point goes to tool development (e.g., I need to add stampede glyph, aoe sim support, etc.). So realistically, other people will need to start and drive those threads.
I realize that you both are incredibly busy and appreciate the work you all do. That was why I was suggesting the new thread for others to be able to work on optimizing the settings. I just hoping that Zeherah would please start it so that we can use her current setups that she uses to analyze the specs in FD as the initial specs that we start to optimize.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/14/12, 12:42 PM   #194
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Whitefyst View Post
I realize that you both are incredibly busy and appreciate the work you all do. That was why I was suggesting the new thread for others to be able to work on optimizing the settings. I just hoping that Zeherah would please start it so that we can use her current setups that she uses to analyze the specs in FD as the initial specs that we start to optimize.
I'd really rather not be responsible for another thread- feel free to start it. You can copy my starter settings and use those as a starting base if you like. I've been keeping the ones I use synced up with what simc is using and there are times when the results in simc don't match up with my site results, so they're sort of for a different purpose.

It'd be best if different optimized settings were used for a max dps thread oriented towards my site (although you can use mine as a starting point)- we can always look at what people come up with and see if those settings also perform well in simc and potentially update the default simc templates.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/16/12, 7:35 PM   #195
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
I recently ran the math on explosive trap and determined that it looks to currently be a dps increase to use it on a single target over arcane shot at level 90 (at least in the T14N gear) for MM/BM. The numbers I ran in simc put it at about a 600-800dps increase. This is partly due to the saved focus and partly due to the pure damage of explosive trap just being a little higher than arcane shot.

I expect there will probably be some change applied to prevent this from being beneficial, as Blizzard in the past has tried to keep us from needing to throw traps rotationally. But in the meantime I thought folks would want to be aware of this. Of course depending on the fight explosive trap may not be optimal, especially if the target is moving or you aren't good at placing it (although if you can stack on the boss, which is a better option than it used to be, it is easy to drop at your feet).

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Hunters

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mists of Pandaria: All Specs Carebare Druids 723 10/06/12 3:30 AM
Mists of Pandaria: All Specs Dopameany Death Knights 212 08/26/12 5:02 AM
Pet DPS specs Aeson Hunters 6 05/09/09 8:49 PM
Off-specs and TBC Mearis Public Discussion 53 11/16/06 1:10 PM