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Old 02/15/12, 5:43 PM   #31
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Okay, new talent calculator is out. Not a lot of changes, but I'll sum them up here.

Level 15
Gone are the ammo talents, which , in my opinion were actually interesting, and they have been replaced with the previous level 45 talents, Posthaste, Evasiveness and Exhilaration

Level 30
Unchanged, Silencing Shot, Wyvern Sting and Intimidation.

Level 45
The previous level 60 talents have been moved down here, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera, Aspect of the Iron Hawk and Spirit Bond

Level 60
Again, the talents here are the ones that was one tier up last time, Fervor, Readiness and Thrill of the Hunt

Level 75
The former level 90 talents, all about traps; Flash Freeze, Black Ice and Transmorph Trap

Thoughts:
So far there is nothing new, its all been shifted, except for level 30, and the previous level 15 talents are gone. The new stuff comes next:

Level 90
Glaive Toss
You hurl two glaives in front of you 30 yards, dealing 1,X damage to all enemies and reducing their movement speed by 50%.
The Glaives will return back to you, also dealing damage and snaring targets they hit.
If Glaive Toss hits at least 2 enemies in both directions, the cooldown is reset.


Powershot
You wind up a powerful shot, dealing 1,X damage to all targets in front of you withing 20 yards (width).
The damage done is increased on targets further away:
15-30 yards: Double damage, Stunned 1 sec
30-50 yards: Tripple damage, Stunned 2 sec


Binding Shot
You fire a magical projectile, tethering the enemy and any other enemies within 10 yards to the landing arrow. Increases all damage they recieve from you by 15%.
If they move 15 yards from the arrow they are stunned for 10 sec (5 sec PVP)


Thoughts
First thought, these are all 3 new, and interesting mechanics. Powershot is an ability that is badly designed as it is right now - hitting all enemies in a box (from how its worded) 20 yards wide and 50 yards long in front of you stunning everything thats 15+ yards from you? Thats overpowered in PVP, almost regardless of the amount of damage (just imagine a hunter on the bridge at the alliance base in AV), and for PvE, with the doing away of minimum range this takes it in the directly opposite direction - stay as far away as possible? Add to that that the "normal" shots still have a max range of 40 yards, and something is hinky here. The blues did say that "For shaman and hunters, we still have a ways to go with the revamp of talents, and this latest calculator doesn’t have some of the changes that we’re currently working on" so lets hope they do give this another pass.
Binding Shot is also an ability that seems a bit OP or PVP - especially combined with multishot and SV getting Serpent spread as a spec bonus (at level 68). It does seem like a possibly good tool for PVE on add control, which, were I to guess, I would assume it was designed for. I like the ability, but I think there is a big possibility that it can be OP in PVP.
Glaive Toss is clearly an AoE ability, and I like the idea, this is the go-to aoe ability (if you have it picked up) as long as at least 2 mobs will survive both passes - the snare on this and Binding shot seem to indicate that the current design thoughts for PVE are headed in the direction of more add control needed - the question then remains what kind, is it Gluth zombies, or Valithria Dreamwalker type adds. Either way I'm excited abot getting tools that indicate that we get to do more than just stand still (and move a bit) and mash buttons.

All in all I like the thoughts of the current level 90 talents more than the previous ones (which are now level 75), and it seems like the class designers are pushing the envelope on actually making interesting - and possibly hard - choices for at least some of the tiers. I still think the (now) level 60 talents should go the way of the dod for something else, they are far too theorycraftable and susceptible to being moot - as I went into some detail with in my first post in this thread. I am definately looking forward to the next set of changes for hunters, as I like where we seem to be headed, despite some issues that I call bad design or design flaws, and overpoweredness - the latter can be tweaked on one ability, and the other (powershot) in my opinion has to go for something else simply because it works against the way hunters are headed in general.

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Old 02/15/12, 7:08 PM   #32
Tobensen
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Zuluhed (EU)
There are some changes for SV as well.

Lock and Load:
You have a 100% chance when you trap a target with Freezing Trap or Ice Trap to cause your next Explosive Shot to cost no Focus, trigger no cooldown and deal double damage.

Black Arrow: (40 Focus; no CD ?)
Fires a Black Arrow at the target, dealing x% Weapon damage as shadow damage to enemy target.
In addition, Black Arrow deals x damage over 20 sec to the target and any other enemy within the path of Black Arrow when fired.

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Old 02/16/12, 2:33 PM   #33
Starwind
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Scarlet Crusade
The chenge that excites me is:

Camouflage - Can now be cast while in combat. Lasts for 6 sec if cast in combat, otherwise, lasts for 1 min.

Also, In general I wouldn't state that something is OP before it even hits beta testing. We have plenty of time for mages to chip away at hunter talents without doing so ourselves before the code is even testable.

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Old 02/16/12, 3:10 PM   #34
davek
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Nooska View Post
for PvE, with the doing away of minimum range this takes it in the directly opposite direction - stay as far away as possible?
Doing away with the minimum range is a more QoL thing for players and developers - in that neither side needs to come up with solutions for stacking bosses to work around it - but I think the developers would steadfastly argue that Hunters are still a ranged class that's not intended to be stacked in the melee pile all the time. With that taken into consideration, I would expect having a talent like Powershot - PvP balancing issues aside - that reminds and encourages Hunters of their place as death dealers who keep their distance while someone or something ties up their target is not necessarily contrary to design goals.

Meanwhile, In those situations where keeping distance is bad/stacking is required, under the new talent tree design you just swap to option two or three and rock on.

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Old 02/17/12, 5:59 AM   #35
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Starwind View Post
Also, In general I wouldn't state that something is OP before it even hits beta testing. We have plenty of time for mages to chip away at hunter talents without doing so ourselves before the code is even testable.
I'm saying I think it is overpowered because there ae no limits - the cooldown on this would eithe rmake or break it if there is one, but even then, adding a CD would just create a need to make the ability even more powerful when it hit (damagewise). As to what specific other classes want to chip away at the hunter, I'm not going to entertain notions of knowing what "classes" want (personally I play 7 classes at 85, some more, some less), and yes I think about being on the recieving end of an ability as well as using it.
I would much rather call it out as OP now, at the beginning, when it can still be changed enough that it can be useful, than wait and be quiet about a - to me - obvious problem and get hit with a harder nerf bat - I want my hunter to be able to be my main (again) come MoP without having to defend it being taken - been there, done that, and even as an officer where I could guarantee it, it was not fun.

Originally Posted by davek View Post
I would expect having a talent like Powershot - PvP balancing issues aside - that reminds and encourages Hunters of their place as death dealers who keep their distance while someone or something ties up their target is not necessarily contrary to design goals.
While I agree on the higher plane of design thought - in practise hunters won't be allowedd to stand 30+ yards away from the boss unless it is required by mechanics, just to use our awesome-shot. In addition, we would feel nerfed everytime we would have to stack on the boss because our awesome-shot just became our sucky-shot. There is a reason Sniper Training was changed to standing still, rather than standing 30+ yards from your target, and I'd rather not go down that path once more.

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Old 02/17/12, 9:26 AM   #36
Arash
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Theradras (EU)
The value of Evasiveness depends on how it will work. Wheter you can use it like deterrence while fighting Ragnaros to completely avoid trap damage or just to avoid targeted projektile damage in fights like Hagara.

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Old 02/17/12, 10:09 AM   #37
TrevvyTrev
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by Nooska View Post
I would much rather call it out as OP now, at the beginning, when it can still be changed enough that it can be useful, than wait and be quiet about a - to me - obvious problem and get hit with a harder nerf bat - I want my hunter to be able to be my main (again) come MoP without having to defend it being taken - been there, done that, and even as an officer where I could guarantee it, it was not fun.


While I agree on the higher plane of design thought - in practise hunters won't be allowedd to stand 30+ yards away from the boss unless it is required by mechanics, just to use our awesome-shot. In addition, we would feel nerfed everytime we would have to stack on the boss because our awesome-shot just became our sucky-shot. There is a reason Sniper Training was changed to standing still, rather than standing 30+ yards from your target, and I'd rather not go down that path once more.
I think the larger point, though, is that not only is the calculator not telling the whole story in terms of specific talents (some are bugged and don't show CDs, the numbers are wrong, etc.), there's no context for some of the larger changes either -- other classes are getting abilities that may also be powerful or may counter some others. Some things probably can't be declared OP without numbers, to boot. At best we can talk about the concept of certain talents, taking care not to rely on assumptions that aren't supported by current data.

For example, Powershot will in most instances be a 1 sec. AoE stun, because most targets won't be more than 30 yards away. It's also a controlled stun, and based on other comments (in threads about rogue stuns) it seems that diminishing returns on controlled stuns aren't going anywhere. Wasting DR on a 1 sec stun (2 max) isn't the no-brainer that it might seem at first. Moreover, Destro locks have an AoE 3-sec stun right now (albeit with a smaller range/radius, assuming we can trust the calculator's numbers). Finally, the damage multiplier suggests a mechanic similar to ice lance, where the base damage is hardly threatening.

Similarly, Binding Arrow has the same issues with running into stun DR, and seems to act only as a pseudo-control to "corral" targets into an area without actually forcing them to be immobile or otherwise controlled. The 15% damage boost might be significant, but it seems to only apply to a single hunter, unlike say, the methods that unholy DKs and Affliction locks can spread the +spell damage taken debuff to multiple targets without any restrictions other than duration, and while the debuff is half as powerful, there's no limit to the number of people who can take advantage of it.

So far, the talents seem more exciting than overpowered (that's without numbers we can trust, of course), which I imagine is what the developers were going for when they introduced the "concentrated coolness" mantra.

As for hunters not being "allowed" to stand far away unless the mechanics require it, I would rephrase that to say that hunters won't be allowed to stand far away if the mechanics prohibit it. That's a smaller list.

Last edited by TrevvyTrev : 02/17/12 at 10:15 AM.

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Old 02/17/12, 10:16 AM   #38
 Kurisu
So damned Devious
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
I'm still sort of surprised that Exhilaration isn't lowered or changed since 15% is pretty sizey a heal to a 15 second cooldown, no resource ability that gets you out of harms way with little to no hamper on DPS, if Evasiveness works akin to say Cloak/Bubble it would both as you describe Arash. The issue with the Ammo talents was that they were too DPS influencing, especially if the dot one was affected by Survival Mastery, and Arcane Arrows heavily fed focus to Beast Mastery to do more Arcane Shots. I doubt it would have felt like a decision in the long run.


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Old 02/17/12, 11:24 AM   #39
Skhope
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Hunter
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
I'm still sort of surprised that Exhilaration isn't lowered or changed since 15% is pretty sizey a heal to a 15 second cooldown
There are several other dps specs that get more than 15% healing over 15 sec (rogues, dks, rets, etc.). Plus, we have no form of absorb and no way to remove debuffs unlike most other classes.

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Old 02/18/12, 12:22 PM   #40
Hirgux
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Blackhand (EU)
Originally Posted by Starwind View Post
The chenge that excites me is:
Camouflage - Can now be cast while in combat. Lasts for 6 sec if cast in combat, otherwise, lasts for 1 min.
Why does it excite you? When reading those news think about when you would use it in the current content - I cannot think of one situation you would use this. You still will be hit by all aoe abilities from bosses (like in pvp camou gets broken by aoe spells) and you normally don't take any direct hits because you are no tank, and in most fights you cannot simply stand there for six seconds useless because when you do anything camo will break.

EDIT: Oh ok pvp would be an idea I didn't think about because I only play pve, sry.

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Old 02/20/12, 1:14 PM   #41
Kamangir
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Aerie Peak
I think the problem with trying to determine the OP-ness (teehee) of Powershot is that we don't know its focus cost or its cooldown.

Also, what do you guys think of Symbiosis?

Here are some examples of spells gained through Symbiosis. The spells shared focus on utility, cooldowns, and survival. (Adding Fireball to a Moonkin’s rotation sounds cool on paper, but wouldn’t actually be fun in the long run.)

Balance: Chains of Ice, Mirror Image, Mass Dispel
Feral: Feign Death (Play Dead!), Frost Nova, Soul Swap
Guardian: Ice Trap, Fear Ward, Consecration
Restoration: Ice Block, Hand of Sacrifice, Leap of Faith
Hunter: Dash
Warlock: Rejuvenation
Holy Paladin: Rebirth
Arms/Fury Warrior: Enrage
Enhancement/Elemental Shaman: Solar Beam
Obviously this isn't the full or final list, but I hope there's more than just Dash. I can see that being useful in PVP, but not so much in PVE. I can't see too many feral abilities being particularly helpful (since they are melee attacks) unless they go to the pet instead of the hunter. Tiger's Fury or Omen of Clarity would be very nice though.

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Old 02/24/12, 9:44 AM   #42
Pathemeous
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Hunter
 
Thunderhorn (EU)
Originally Posted by Kamangir
I can see that being useful in PVP, but not so much in PVE.
Keep in mind that FD isn't very useful in PvE either. It seems that a Symbiosis on a hunter is more of a PvP utility. Feral druid getting a way be removed as target / get out of combat, hunters getting a speed increase to easen our positioning, which still is an important thing seeing that we will be gimped when LoSed.

Also, about the general thoughts of our last tier talents:
OPness seems unpredictable. They do seem like very 'big' abilities, but mind that other classes are getting abilities of the same size. It won't neccessarily make us OP, it'll just mean that there are 'bigger' attacks from all classes to watch out for in PvP, more 'pewpew' and epic magical effects happening in PvE.

I think that this last tier of talents is just an attempt to make everything more "Woooww, that looks epic!", make the game a bit more attractive

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Old 02/25/12, 10:22 AM   #43
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
I will just make a comment about OP distinction in my posts.
I am not looking at powershot and saying hunters will be OP, I am saying I think the ability is overpowered (almost regardless of cost or CD) - I haven't looked analytically a other classes, and I don't think its necessary to analyze hunters. While we don't exist in a vacuum, whether or not another class has overpowered or underpowered abilities doesn't change how we work after all.

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Old 02/26/12, 10:20 PM   #44
TrevvyTrev
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Gilneas
Even if I understood the distinction (and I don't), I don't believe the responses are inconsistent with what you said. The argument is that you can't make a judgment about whether an ability is overpowered (even as distinct from a class being overpowered) without considering how it stacks up against other abilities that are available, including existing pre-MoP abilities. That still requires an accurate understanding of what the ability actually does (and costs, and how often it can be used).

Last edited by TrevvyTrev : 02/26/12 at 11:39 PM.

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Old 02/27/12, 5:29 AM   #45
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
The distinction I'm making is that I'm not comparing hunters to other classes - I don't find that interesting at all - I am looking at the specific abilities and considering how they will feel or where I could imagine using them - and then I consider the implications of said usage.
For Powershot I first look at the requirements for boh stun and damage, and see; If I want to use this optimally I need to be 30+ yards away from my target(s). Then I think about how much of a bother it has been over the course of my hunterdays to be forced to be a given distance away from my target - be that minimum range meaning we can't stack in melee, or an ability like Sniper Training in the old incarnation. I then look at the doing away of minimum range and call out a completely new ability that goes in the completely opposite direction for being a counter to the very clear design descision.
Further I look at where I could imagine using the ability to the best, and as I've mentioned a few times, standing at one end of the alliance bridge in AV would be a perfect example of how OP the ability can be - I hit everything in a 20 yard wide 50 yard deep square and deal damage (significant damage to the furthest targets since its tripled) and stun them all. Being able to singlehandedly stop a nondetermined amount of players in PvP (even if its only for a second or two) is simply overpowered. This could be remedied with a cap on number of targets, a change of the area of effect or numerous other tweaks, but then it impacts the ability's usefulness in other situations.

So while I may have been a bit shortwinded on it before, I will also make sure to be specific about calling out powershot on 2 points, 1) its overpowered (in my opinion, for the reasons stated above) and 2) its going against the called for and clear design changes for hunter range.

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