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08/08/12, 10:18 AM
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#121
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Warlock
Burning Legion
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Originally Posted by Nooska
Rivkah, I am wondering how you are simming the focus tier, Fervor coming in ahead of Dire Beast for BM seems off to me, as DB takes advantage of BM mastery (or will according to blue word, erhmm, last week I think it was), but also ahead of TotH seems odd. Is AS simply too low damage now or is it a matter of not being able to utilize the proc fully?
Reason I'm thinking this is that I haven't seen anything much in beta or notes to change BMs priority for sustained; ^HM>KC>^SrS>AS>CoS basically, and with more focus regen moving from CoS to AS in the 6 second cycle. Are you using FF in teh simming or letting it stay on the pet (and which value do you have FF at for pet/hunter respectively?)
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Focus fire THIS PATCH was a dps gain to consume for yourself by about ~3k in simc. Its value next patch has gone up a large amount for a number of reasons. For starter, they upped the value you get from using it, and decreased the value your pet gets if you don't. They've also nerfed pet basic attack damage by twenty percent seemingly. As for TotH, the final nail in its coffin was placed this patch with the massive arcane shot nerf. It was already weak due to the previous nerf to arcane shot, and this one sealed the deal. If you're interested in my CURRENT rotation for simc, bearing in mind that its more than likely going to change in at the very least some way next patch:
 ← Click Here
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actions+=/auto_shot
actions+=/use_item,name=yaungol_slayers_gloves
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/bestial_wrath,if=focus>60&!buff.beast_within.up
actions+=/fervor,if=!ticking
actions+=/kill_command
actions+=/serpent_sting,if=!dot.serpent_sting.ticking
actions+=/kill_shot
actions+=/stampede
actions+=/rapid_fire,if=!buff.bloodlust.up&!buff.beast_within.up&focus<=60&!buff.rapid_fire.rea ct
actions+=/a_murder_of_crows
actions+=/readiness,wait_for_rapid_fire=1
actions+=/focus_fire,five_stacks=1
actions+=/glaive_toss,if=cooldown.a_murder_of_crows.remains>=3&(focus>=70|(buff.beast_within.up &focus>=35))
actions+=/arcane_shot,if=cooldown.a_murder_of_crows.remains>=3&(focus>=70|(buff.beast_within.up &focus>=35))
actions+=/cobra_shot
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As you can see, the value of fervor this patch is so insane that it actually takes priority over kill command.
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08/08/12, 10:33 AM
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#122
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King Hippo
Blood Elf Hunter
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by gahddo
As you can see, the value of fervor this patch is so insane that it actually takes priority over kill command.
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Disregarding that I was asking Rivkah/Zeherah how FF was simmed and not how well it or the talent(s) does in SimC, this last statement makes absolutely no sense.
Fervor is focus restoration cooldown, it cannot take higher priority than a main nuke ability without any factors. Since it restores 50 focus immediately and 50 focus over 10 seconds (essentially adding 5 fps) it will be 100% wasted if you use it at 100 focus, and will only be utilized completely if used under some more narrowly defined circumstances.
Regardless of its utility power, it will never be in a priority queue for dps, but will be valuated independantly for use and with circumstances attached (whether the circumstances are "use on CD" still does not put it in a priority queue with our damage dealers).
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08/08/12, 10:51 AM
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#123
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Warlock
Burning Legion
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Originally Posted by Nooska
Disregarding that I was asking Rivkah/Zeherah how FF was simmed and not how well it or the talent(s) does in SimC, this last statement makes absolutely no sense.
Fervor is focus restoration cooldown, it cannot take higher priority than a main nuke ability without any factors. Since it restores 50 focus immediately and 50 focus over 10 seconds (essentially adding 5 fps) it will be 100% wasted if you use it at 100 focus, and will only be utilized completely if used under some more narrowly defined circumstances.
Regardless of its utility power, it will never be in a priority queue for dps, but will be valuated independantly for use and with circumstances attached (whether the circumstances are "use on CD" still does not put it in a priority queue with our damage dealers).
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The way its simulated is exactly how it functions, aside from frenzy still being considered a pet only buff as apposed to a buff for both pet and hunter, at least in simc. I was responding to the first half of your statement because simc and femaledwarf are coming up with very similar numbers currently. Fervor functions as 50 initial focus and then 5/sec over 10 seconds. I've accounted for that and can't find any fault with how simcraft is portraying this. The reason its currently a gain in the sim is because you gain more focus over the entire fight from placing it at the top than you lose from the initial cast and any casts above 50 focus from there on out. Increasing the interval on the cast of fervor in any way, shape, or form results in a loss. I haven't found the command line yet but I'm sure there's some way to make it only cast if the fight duration is passed a certain point, lets say 5 seconds, so the focus has been dumped. I'm hoping that could at least reduce the impact of the first cast being so severe at 50 focus loss.
Update: I've been able to achieve the same DPS as having nothing modifying fervor usage through an opening sequence that casts KC -> SS -> fervor -> bestial wrath, it also reduced overflow of fervor focus to just 19.8.
Last edited by gahddo : 08/08/12 at 11:49 AM.
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08/08/12, 12:18 PM
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#124
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Nooska
Rivkah, I am wondering how you are simming the focus tier, Fervor coming in ahead of Dire Beast for BM seems off to me, as DB takes advantage of BM mastery (or will according to blue word, erhmm, last week I think it was), but also ahead of TotH seems odd. Is AS simply too low damage now or is it a matter of not being able to utilize the proc fully?
Reason I'm thinking this is that I haven't seen anything much in beta or notes to change BMs priority for sustained; ^HM>KC>^SrS>AS>CoS basically, and with more focus regen moving from CoS to AS in the 6 second cycle. Are you using FF in teh simming or letting it stay on the pet (and which value do you have FF at for pet/hunter respectively?)
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Currently on beta, DB does not take advantage of BM mastery. That may be changed in the new build (as they indicated), but since it's not in the notes I won't be adding that into my sim until I can verify it on the server. Fervor also is quite beneficial to BM because it gives the pet focus too, which means more wild hunt attacks (without it, the pet rarely gets into wild hunt territory after the start of the fight). Fervor's boost to pet wild hunt attacks for the other specs also helps keep it ahead of thrill.
Thrill's problem is that everytime they bump the proc rate, they nerf the shot. Since all thrill really does is save you focus for more arcane shots, it gets weaker everytime they do that. It's possible it performs better in practice than in my sims, but right now it just looks incredibly weak for all 3 specs.
With regards to FF, I currently have it simming cast at 5 stacks and I'm using the model on the MMO notes which has the hunter haste bumped to 6% but no changes to the pet attack speed from the previous patch. That change helped make the difference between using it and not using it more attractive (it now comes out at about 1k dps gain to use it) but it's still fairly weak.
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08/08/12, 9:23 PM
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#125
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Piston Honda
Orc Hunter
Steamwheedle Cartel
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
Based on my limited understanding of the changes, my simulated T14H gear saw the following drops in damage: - BM: 12% (from 133562.78 to 117945.31)
- MM: 16% (from 116460.24 to 98211.84)
- SV: 11% (from 115792.27 to 102676.46)
Note that my implementation of the spec simulations still needs tweaking so these numbers should be taken with a large grain of salt.
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My preliminary update of simc shows more significant drops, but there are a few outstanding buffs that they described that need to be verified and added to the model (e.g., wild_quiver triggering on level 90 talents, BM buff applying to some abilities, etc.). The current reference profiles (with fervor):
| Spec | Before | After | delta | | BM | 131,858 | 101,672 | 23% | | SV | 118,901 | 99,329 | 16% | | MM | 116,280 | 92,861 | 20% |
Gahddo's improved profiles:
| Spec | Before | After | delta | | BM | 143,098 | 107,144 | 25% | | SV | 124,685 | 104,664 | 16% | | MM | 122,200 | 94,515 | 23% |
Many other classes were nerfed as well, so I'm not worried about hunter vs. other classes. MM dropped more than seems appropriate to be in line with the other specs, so the highest sim priority is to find and implement and mechanics changes that are not yet incorporated. Secondarily, it's useful to note that improved profiles and gear above make a difference!
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08/09/12, 12:54 AM
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#126
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Great Tiger
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Based on the changes in the latest beta build, here are the latest formulas (note that I only retested abilities I had reason to believe had changed so it's possible other numbers have been stealth changed). The nerf was larger than anticipated originally since some of the mechanics changes I was unclear about did not go in our favor upon testing.
Spec Comparison:
Here are my current simulated damage numbers in roughly the same T14H setup that simc is using, including the % damage drop from the previous patch mechanics. Note that I'm using an orc for these tests. - BM- 103318.58 (23%), Talents: Fervor very slightly above Dire beast, Lynx rush on top, Glaive toss significantly on top (2672.84 dps lower for worgen)
MM- 91673.77 (21%), Talents: Dire beast significantly on top, Murder significantly on top, Glaive Toss significantly on top (747.79 dps lower for worgen)
SV- 95451.37 (18%), Talents: Dire beast slightly above fervor, Murder significantly on top, Glaive Toss significantly on top (990.35 dps lower for worgen)
Buff/Nerf Summary:
I did some raw calculations on a T14 heroic gear set. In this set I assumed 52k RAP and 15130.5 avg weapon dmg with a weapon speed of 3.0. With these stats here is a rough estimate of how much damage change there is to each modified ability: - Aimed Shot: 36% nerf
- Arcane Shot: 34% nerf
- Black Arrow: 20% nerf
- Chimera Shot: 31% nerf
- Cobra Shot: 30% nerf
- Explosive Shot: 20% nerf
- Serpent Sting: 18% nerf
- Steady Shot: 37% nerf
- Wild Quiver: 15% nerf
- Bite/Claw/Smack: 34% nerf
- Blink Strike: 300% buff
- Lynx Rush: 200% buff
- Kill Command: 42% nerf
- Pet Melee: 17% nerf
- Dire Beast: 19% nerf (but now benefits from BM mastery)
Notes:- Powershot no longer suppresses autoshot
- Combat experience pet damage multiplier was reduced from 80% to 50% damage bonus
- Dire beast formula has changed and now benefits from mastery
- Improved serpent sting formula probably bugged
Current Formulas:
Hunter:- Aimed Shot: (avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) * 2.8 + 19541 (suppresses autoshot)
- Arcane Shot: (avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) * .75 + 1309
- Barrage: (avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) * 6.4 (total damage to the primary target over 16 ticks, suppresses autoshot)
- Black Arrow: RAP * 1.6 + 1990 (total damage, split over 10 ticks)
- Chimera Shot: (avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) * 2.1 + 2617
- Cobra Shot: (avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) * .7
- Explosive Shot: RAP * .266 + 331.5 (per tick, there are 3 ticks)
- Explosive Trap: RAP * .0546 + 246.767 (initial damage), RAP * .0546 + 32.4038 (per tick, there are 10 ticks) - not retested (notes don't indicate a change)
- Glaive Toss: (RAP * .2 + 872) * 4 (to the primary target, 2 will hit)
- Improved Serpent Sting: (RAP * .097 + 2030.22) * 5 * .3 (probably bugged, it's using the old sting formula, does benefit from the 100% damage bonus)
- Kill Shot: (avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) * 3 - not retested (notes don't indicate a change)
- Multi-Shot: (avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) * .6 - not retested (notes don't indicate a change)
- Powershot: (avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) * 8 (damage to the primary target, no longer suppresses autoshot)
- Serpent Sting: RAP * .08 + 1620.19 (per tick, ticks every 3 sec)
- Steady Shot: (avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) * .5 + 997
- Wild Quiver: (avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) * .85
Pet:- Bite/Claw/Smack: (RAP * .168 + 142) * 1.5 (standard pet damage multiplier)
- Blink Strike: pet melee dmg * 6
- Lynx Rush: pet melee dmg * 2 per attack (9 attacks total over 4 sec)
- Kill Command: (RAP * .7 + 698) * 1.5 (standard pet damage multiplier)
- Melee: (RAP / 14 * 2 + 311.575) * 1.5 (standard pet damage multiplier)
Summoned Pets:- Dire Beast: RAP * .2857 + 1246.3 per hit (does about 8 attacks but sometimes only 7), now scales with BM mastery
- A Murder of Crows: RAP * .206 + 560.834 per hit (30 attacks) - does not scale with BM mastery (treated as damage coming from hunter)
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08/09/12, 3:26 AM
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#127
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Great Tiger
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Spec racial differences
Since there were inquiries about the impact of the racials, I thought it might be useful to see how much impact they're making in the various specs. Here's the results I got in my T14H sims by spec. Note that for draenei, trolls and dwarves I replaced the hit/expertise with the corresponding crit rating so that I could use the same gear for comparison. This also assumes 300 agil food for Pandaren.
| Spec | Race | DPS | Spec Racial Difference | | BM | Orc | 103318.58 | 0 | | BM | Pandaren | 101135.26 | 2183.32 | | BM | Troll | 100980.92 | 2337.66 | | BM | Worgen | 100645.74 | 2672.84 | | BM | Undead | 100491.53 | 2827.05 | | BM | Goblin | 100406.27 | 2912.31 | | BM | Draenei | 100238.97 | 3079.61 | | BM | Dwarf | 100235.68 | 3082.9 | | BM | Blood Elf | 99789.6 | 3528.98 | | BM | Human | 99770.12 | 3548.46 | | BM | Tauren | 99753.49 | 3565.09 | | BM | Night Elf | 99735.07 | 3583.51 | | SV | Orc | 95450.29 | 0 | | SV | Pandaren | 94946.92 | 503.37 | | SV | Troll | 94830.95 | 619.34 | | SV | Undead | 94587.69 | 862.6 | | SV | Worgen | 94459.94 | 990.35 | | SV | Draenei | 94119.74 | 1330.55 | | SV | Dwarf | 94116.32 | 1333.97 | | SV | Blood Elf | 93818.51 | 1631.78 | | SV | Night Elf | 93732.24 | 1718.05 | | SV | Human | 93713.46 | 1736.83 | | SV | Tauren | 93697.87 | 1752.42 | | SV | Goblin | 93633.68 | 1816.61 | | MM | Orc | 91672.69 | 0 | | MM | Troll | 91367.16 | 305.53 | | MM | Pandaren | 91138.73 | 533.96 | | MM | Undead | 90929.29 | 743.4 | | MM | Worgen | 90924.9 | 747.79 | | MM | Goblin | 90605.94 | 1066.75 | | MM | Draenei | 90596.21 | 1076.48 | | MM | Dwarf | 90592.81 | 1079.88 | | MM | Blood Elf | 90215.56 | 1457.13 | | MM | Night Elf | 90210.42 | 1462.27 | | MM | Human | 90195.11 | 1477.58 | | MM | Tauren | 90183.18 | 1489.51 |
Last edited by Rivkah : 08/10/12 at 11:51 AM.
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08/09/12, 4:00 AM
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#128
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Glass Joe
Orc Hunter
Свежеватель душ (EU)
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
Since there were inquiries about the impact of the racials, I thought it might be useful to see how much impact they're making in the various specs. Here's the results I got in my T14H sims by spec. Note that for draenei, trolls and dwarves I replaced the hit/expertise with the corresponding crit rating so that I could use the same gear for comparison. This also assumes 300 agil food for Pandaren.
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You don't seem to count new Undead dps racial Touch of the Grave - Spell - World of Warcraft, they couldn't be that low, near taurens and NE.
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08/09/12, 6:00 AM
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#129
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King Hippo
Blood Elf Hunter
Argent Dawn (EU)
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After the changes have been implemented, I'm seeing fervor being a 0.3% dps increase over DB for BM in T14Hc gear, with mastery>crit>>haste, which is what I deduced through experimentation yesterday, with a total drop of 12% in BM damage from yesterday to todays iterations and some wasted secondary points in expertise and hit (will have to spend more time to balance them more precisely)
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08/09/12, 2:17 PM
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#130
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Piston Honda
Orc Hunter
Steamwheedle Cartel
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Originally Posted by o5a
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At first I thought this was a clever joke, since the mouseover refers to the live version of the racial (underwater breathing). Then I remembered that it actually provides damage now, and following your link goes to the right place. I tested in simc; you have to specify "race=undead" rather than "race=forsaken".
| Spec | Orc | Forsaken | Diff | | SV | 102,677 | 101,722 | 955 | | MM | 93,366 | 92,296 | 1,070 |
So assuming that simc and FD will produces relatively comparable numbers, forsaken look like they are quite comparable with Worgen. The SV numbers assume that Touch of the Grave benefits from the increased magic damage of SV, incidentally. Please let us know if that's inaccurate.
Last edited by Lokrick : 08/09/12 at 2:33 PM.
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08/09/12, 4:14 PM
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#131
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Piston Honda
Orc Hunter
Steamwheedle Cartel
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
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One additional note for Lynx Rush, from the logs, it does not interrupt normal attacks against the primary target. It just adds SPELL_DAMAGE ticks that can be dodged, parried, etc. It's not yet implemented in simc, but it looks straightforward now.
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08/09/12, 9:23 PM
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#132
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Lokrick
At first I thought this was a clever joke, since the mouseover refers to the live version of the racial (underwater breathing). Then I remembered that it actually provides damage now, and following your link goes to the right place. I tested in simc; you have to specify "race=undead" rather than "race=forsaken".
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It's a good thing you replied Lokrick since I had the same reaction. I'll look into the mechanics of this and add it to my site as soon as possible, thanks for bringing it up o5a!
Are there any other racial changes this expansion I might have forgotten? I know about the troll/dwarf change to expertise and have that implemented, and I've updated the numbers for blood fury.
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08/10/12, 1:24 AM
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#133
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Great Tiger
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I updated my racial table above with the new undead numbers for each spec, based on the mechanics info Lokrick was kind enough to look up for me.
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08/10/12, 7:10 PM
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#134
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King Hippo
Tauren Druid
Destromath (EU)
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
Since there were inquiries about the impact of the racials, I thought it might be useful to see how much impact they're making in the various specs. Here's the results I got in my T14H sims by spec. Note that for draenei, trolls and dwarves I replaced the hit/expertise with the corresponding crit rating so that I could use the same gear for comparison. This also assumes 300 agil food for Pandaren.
| Spec | Race | DPS | Spec Racial Difference |
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| SV | Tauren | 93697.87 | 1752.42 | | SV | Goblin | 93633.68 | 1816.61 |
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Goblin: 6 more base agi, 1% haste passive
Tauren: ?
Am I missing something or how can Tauren be ahead of Goblin? :o
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Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
SimulationCraft Druid Guy
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08/10/12, 7:22 PM
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#135
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Starfox
Goblin: 6 more base agi, 1% haste passive
Tauren: ?
Am I missing something or how can Tauren be ahead of Goblin? :o
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Probably caused by shot shifting related to the haste moving to a less favorable shot count (especially given it didn't dip for the other 2 specs). I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that particular value.
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