SimulationCraft for Hunters (Panda edition) - Page 2

Lokrick · 10/14/12, 12:39 AM

TL;DR is that the change to Rabid does seem to only affect burst and not sustained dps. "Rabid has been changed and now increases a pet's attack speed by 70%. Pet attack power is now unaffected by this ability". I hacked in the change to test it; it's added to the code base, but will need to be updated once the client (and therefore the spell data) is updated. The current profiles are all using Lynx Rush, which had a nice synergy with Rabid. On the theory that it loses such a synergy, I also compared with Murder of Crows. The basic T14N results are:

Spec	AP + LR	Spd + LR	Spd + MoC
BM	86,453	86108	85,233
SV	84,207	84,454	84,648
MM	83,545	83,812	83,884

So basically, the differences for T14N are in the noise. In another fit of tuning I'll probably switch SV to use MoC, but it remains a fight and style-specific question which talent would actually be better in practice.

AnotherTrollHunter · 10/14/12, 8:18 AM

Originally Posted by Lokrick

TL;DR is that the change to Rabid does seem to only affect burst and not sustained dps. "Rabid has been changed and now increases a pet's attack speed by 70%. Pet attack power is now unaffected by this ability". I hacked in the change to test it; it's added to the code base, but will need to be updated once the client (and therefore the spell data) is updated. The current profiles are all using Lynx Rush, which had a nice synergy with Rabid. On the theory that it loses such a synergy, I also compared with Murder of Crows. The basic T14N results are:

Spec	AP + LR	Spd + LR	Spd + MoC
BM	86,453	86108	85,233
SV	84,207	84,454	84,648
MM	83,545	83,812	83,884

So basically, the differences for T14N are in the noise. In another fit of tuning I'll probably switch SV to use MoC, but it remains a fight and style-specific question which talent would actually be better in practice.

How does Simcraft simulate Rabid? Ist it averaged over the course of a single fight like Femaledwarf does or is it used like ingame where it gets the full benefit for the duration of the buff? And did you have priorities to delay the old version of Rabid so it lined up with trinket procs or stuff like agility potion?

Lokrick · 10/14/12, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by AnotherTrollHunter

How does Simcraft simulate Rabid? Ist it averaged over the course of a single fight like Femaledwarf does or is it used like ingame where it gets the full benefit for the duration of the buff? And did you have priorities to delay the old version of Rabid so it lined up with trinket procs or stuff like agility potion?

SimulationCraft is an event simulator, so it simulates Rabid directly; i.e., my change replaces the code that applied an AP buff to the pet with code that adds an attack speed buff. The existing action list does not make any special effort to line up rabid with procs. When I played with a few variations during beta, it was a loss because: the 2min cd didn't line up well with the ~110 second interval of Terror in the Mists. Similarly, lining it up with the ~70 second interval of Relic of Xuen is possible, but has a high probability of losing a rabid, and stacking AP buff with an Agi buff isn't very high synergy. The intervals I mention here come from the buff results in the automated simulation run. Syncing up controlled buffs with longer CDs to those procs (e.g., delaying Rapid Fire for a Relic of Xuen proc) should have better synergy.

The current action list (see the above link) has a few entries that coordinate between abilities, but it does not contain any gear-specific ones; the default action list is generic across a wide range of gear. Proposing profiles with specific gear/talent/action combinations (with simulation results to back them up) is however eminently suitable for this thread. I'll integrate gear-specific actions into the default action list generation if they are very common or significant enough.

Edit: as an example, a quick comparison of changing the rapid_fire line for SV to "actions+=/rapid_fire,if=!buff.rapid_fire.up&buff.relic_of_xuen.up" results in a 5% drop in rapid fire uptime and so loses 500dps.

AnotherTrollHunter · 10/14/12, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Lokrick

SimulationCraft is an event simulator, so it simulates Rabid directly; i.e., my change replaces the code that applied an AP buff to the pet with code that adds an attack speed buff. The existing action list does not make any special effort to line up rabid with procs. When I played with a few variations during beta, it was a loss because: the 2min cd didn't line up well with the ~110 second interval of Terror in the Mists. Similarly, lining it up with the ~70 second interval of Relic of Xuen is possible, but has a high probability of losing a rabid, and stacking AP buff with an Agi buff isn't very high synergy. The intervals I mention here come from the buff results in the automated simulation run. Syncing up controlled buffs with longer CDs to those procs (e.g., delaying Rapid Fire for a Relic of Xuen proc) should have better synergy.

The current action list (see the above link) has a few entries that coordinate between abilities, but it does not contain any gear-specific ones; the default action list is generic across a wide range of gear. Proposing profiles with specific gear/talent/action combinations (with simulation results to back them up) is however eminently suitable for this thread. I'll integrate gear-specific actions into the default action list generation if they are very common or significant enough.

Edit: as an example, a quick comparison of changing the rapid_fire line for SV to "actions+=/rapid_fire,if=!buff.rapid_fire.up&buff.relic_of_xuen.up" results in a 5% drop in rapid fire uptime and so loses 500dps.

I don't really know how to read your string but if it means that you only use Rapid Fire if you have Relic of Xuen buff up, then that is an awfully unoptimised condition. I was thinking about only waiting for cooldowns if the internal cooldowns of trinkets and stuff is almost expired and you would not lose another cooldown by waiting. That's a little more complicated.

NoGoal · 10/15/12, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by Lokrick

TL;DR is that the change to Rabid does seem to only affect burst and not sustained dps. "Rabid has been changed and now increases a pet's attack speed by 70%. Pet attack power is now unaffected by this ability". I hacked in the change to test it; it's added to the code base, but will need to be updated once the client (and therefore the spell data) is updated. The current profiles are all using Lynx Rush, which had a nice synergy with Rabid. On the theory that it loses such a synergy, I also compared with Murder of Crows. The basic T14N results are:

Spec	AP + LR	Spd + LR	Spd + MoC
BM	86,453	86108	85,233
SV	84,207	84,454	84,648
MM	83,545	83,812	83,884

So basically, the differences for T14N are in the noise. In another fit of tuning I'll probably switch SV to use MoC, but it remains a fight and style-specific question which talent would actually be better in practice.

Is there any reason as to why simulationcraft doesn't apply BM mastery to MoC?

FemaleDwarf does and Ghostcrawler said it should.

The DPS I get from it in game is also higher than the DPS simulated while my gear is lower.

Lokrick · 10/15/12, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by NoGoal

Is there any reason as to why simulationcraft doesn't apply BM mastery to MoC? ... The DPS I get from it in game is also higher than the DPS simulated while my gear is lower.

It should be (and it used to). Now the code is not being called, so I'm investigating. If you are referring to other abilities than MoC (as having lower-than-expected dps), please let me know specifics?

NoGoal · 10/16/12, 3:00 AM

I only checked MoC as it sims lower than Lynx Rush for simulationCraft. Tested with versions 505-1 && 505-2, increasing mastery (by 5k, all other stats unchanged) didn't significantly influence MoC DPS.

Edit: Just to make sure I did nothing wrong..

download new simc-505-2
Options -> Iterations == 10000
Import -> BiS -> Hunter_BM_T14N.simc
Overrides -> talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#Ya!...100
Results -> MoC 277331 dmg per execute time
Hunter_BM_T14N 83451
Mastery: 44.50% 5552

Damage Stats	DPS	DPS%	Count	Interval	DPE	DPET	Ticks	T-Hit	T-Crit	T-Avg	T-Crit%	T-Avoid%	Up%
a_murder_of_crows	3289	3.9%	5.1	96.22sec	287419	277331	147.8	8290	17638	10459	23.2%	0.0%	32.8%
kill_command	0 (13408)	0.0% (16.1%)	65.5	6.90sec	92098	88854	0	0.0	0	0	0	0.0%	0.0%

Overrides -> gear_mastery_rating=10552
Results -> MoC 277379 dmg per execute time
Hunter_BM_T14N 88357
Mastery: 61.18% 10552

Damage Stats	DPS	DPS%	Count	Interval	DPE	DPET	Ticks	T-Hit	T-Crit	T-Avg	T-Crit%	T-Avoid%	Up%
a_murder_of_crows	3292	3.7%	5.1	96.22sec	287456	277379	147.7	8289	17642	10466	23.3%	0.0%	32.8%
kill_command	0 (14955)	0.0% (16.9%)	65.5	6.90sec	102704	99087	0.0	0	0	0	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%

Lokrick · 10/16/12, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by NoGoal

I only checked MoC

There was definitely a bug in Murder of Crows. It will be fixed in the next release. In the meantime, below are comparisons for the level 75 talents. These all assume dire beast and glaive toss (because it was easier to pick those, not because I necessarily advocate them).

Spec	Ability	DPS
bm	crows	86,715
bm	lynx	86,115
bm	blink	85,459
sv	crows	84,633
sv	lynx	84,483
mm	crows	84,293
mm	lynx	83,901
sv	blink	83,592
mm	blink	82,701

Fixing the bug put crows marginally on top for raw single-target damage for all specs. The default MM profile has crows too low in the, uh, pecking order and so focus starves it. In that case it's below lynx. The above ranking is achieved by prioritizing crows above chimera shot (up where lynx rush gets prioritized).

NoGoal · 10/17/12, 5:53 AM

I also noticed that all BM profiles have actions+=/readiness,wait_for_rapid_fire=1 which is a DPS loss over actions+=/readiness,wait_for_rapid_fire=0. You gain ~17 MoC ticks for ~5 less auto+AS+CS shots.

Nooska · 10/17/12, 7:34 AM

If not waiting for readiness to be cast before readiness is a DPS gain over waiting for it, something is wonky with the simulation; RF and BW should be cast together, and readiness should thus always be used after RF (and KC and T75 and T90 and DB).

NoGoal · 10/17/12, 8:41 AM

In either case you trade 1 CD for another. Be it MoC or RF. Knowing that RF isn't a high DPS increase for BM, it can make sense.

It would also probably be a good idea to include a setting to delay the 2nd Stampede until we can stack it with RF.

Lokrick · 10/18/12, 3:10 AM

I am working on an improved MM profile. Some of the improvements are for clarity and some are for improved DPS (e.g., following Whitefyst's recommendations).

DPS	Profile
85,100	new Hunter_MM_T14N
84,412	current Hunter_MM_T14N

I was surprised to discover that "aimed shot during rapid fire outside of CA" is consistently a 100dps increase, and so I kept it in the current profile (resulting in 17 hard-cast aimed shots vs. 8 aimed shots). The in progress actionlist is shown below. Key elements include:

There is a separate "actions.CA" sub-profile to make it easier change the CA behavior. Everything before the "/run_action_list,name=CA" will also happen during CA.
glaive toss is no longer included during CA
serpent sting and chimera are included during CA
steady focus handling is much improved, so it is now up 95% of the time.
stampede waits for rapid fire
readiness delays for some big CDs. This the primary twiddle that needs work before incorporating into the standard action list, since it's currently very specific to talent choices.

As I understand it, steady focus only needs to be up for the start of the second steady shot, but this is a little more conservative than that (e.g., it does a steady shot pair more eagerly). In particular,

/steady_shot,if=buff.steady_focus.remains<(action.steady_shot.cast_time+1)&!in_flight

tries to start renewing steady_focus as late as possible, just in case. Typically, focus demands start the process earlier. After the first steady shot, there is a much higher priority action to complete the steady shot pair:

/steady_shot,if=buff.pre_steady_focus.up&buff.steady_focus.remains<=5

Note that having one action list in the middle of another doesn't matter; actions lists are grouped by the actual list. All the testing was done with dire beast, murder, and glaive. Other talents are placed logically, but not measured.

← Click Here

This was a fair bit of surgery to the action list and the resulting action sequence seems much improved. And yet the net result is <1k dps difference, or more clearly, < 0.8% difference. I was going to suggest trying to sync up stampede and rapid fire, and then realized I had already included that:

0.000 step_Hunter_MM_T14N performs rapid_fire (100)
0.000 step_Hunter_MM_T14N performs stampede (100)
5.191 step_Hunter_MM_T14N performs readiness (10)
15.619 step_Hunter_MM_T14N performs rapid_fire (69)
196.138 step_Hunter_MM_T14N performs rapid_fire (86)
319.054 step_Hunter_MM_T14N performs readiness (62)
319.054 step_Hunter_MM_T14N performs rapid_fire (62)
319.054 step_Hunter_MM_T14N performs stampede (62)

Are there currently proposed priority improvements that this action list doesn't include?

NoGoal · 10/18/12, 5:44 AM

I'm glad to see MoC fixed in version 505-3!

That said, Lynx Rush is still used in default BM profiles while using MoC is a dps increase. They also include actions+=/readiness,wait_for_rapid_fire=1 which results in a dps loss. Using gear from the best possible dps thread is also a DPS increase.

With the following changes, I'm reaching ~109.3k dps instead of ~106.4k dps - both having optimal_raid=1 - for Hunter_BM_T14H.

optimal_raid=1
professions=leatherworking=600/enchanting=600
talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#Ya!...100
actions+=/readiness,wait_for_rapid_fire=0
head=yaungol_slayers_headguard,id=87004,gems=agile_primal_80agi_160hit_180agi,reforge=exp_crit
neck=choker_of_the_unleashed_storm,id=86953,reforge=mastery_hit
shoulders=waterborne_shoulderguards,id=90505,gems=160agi_60agi,enchant=200agi_100crit,reforge=exp_haste
back=legbreaker_greatcloak,id=86963,enchant=180hit,reforge=mastery_exp
chest=yaungol_slayers_tunic,id=87002,gems=160agi_160agi,enchant=80all,reforge=mastery_haste
wrists=jagged_hornet_bracers,id=86997,enchant=500agi,reforge=mastery_crit
hands=yaungol_slayers_gloves,id=87003,enchant=170exp,reforge=hit_exp
waist=rangers_chain_of_unending_summer,id=87182,gems=160agi_160agi,reforge=exp_hit
legs=yaungol_slayers_legguards,id=87005,gems=160agi_60agi,enchant=285agi_165crit,reforge=haste_crit
feet=monstrous_stompers,id=86985,gems=80agi_160haste_120haste,enchant=140agi,reforge=crit_exp
finger1=painful_thorned_ring,id=86974,enchant=160agi,reforge=mastery_crit
finger2=regails_band_of_the_endless,id=90503,enchant=160agi,reforge=haste_hit
trinket1=relic_of_xuen,id=79328
trinket2=terror_in_the_mists,id=87167
main_hand=taoren_the_soul_burner,id=87168,gems=500agi,enchant=lord_blastingtons_scope_of_doom,reforge=mastery_crit

Whitefyst · 10/18/12, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Lokrick

I was surprised to discover that "aimed shot during rapid fire outside of CA" is consistently a 100dps increase, and so I kept it in the current profile (resulting in 17 hard-cast aimed shots vs. 8 aimed shots). The in progress actionlist is shown below.

I just want to make a clarification on this statement from my calculations and observations since the statement is not true for all cases and all haste levels. Whether casting AI or not during RFs outisde the CA phase to be beneficial depends on your haste levels and your talents.

With MoC, DB, and GT, I found the tradeoff to be around 1.3s AI cast time before the AI buff. I now find it to be closer to the 1.4s AI cast time. These numbers do not take into account the additional focus cost of using an AI rotation, which reduces the critical cast time some.

Thus, if you have sufficient haste from gear to make the AI cast time to be below about 1.3s, AI should be superior. If your cast time is greater than 1.4s, casting AS should still be superior. The cutoff point should be somewhere between these two levels, where using either should provide similar DPS, with me usually choosing to use AS since it is the safer of the two choices to use.

Lokrick · 10/18/12, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by NoGoal

I'm glad to see MoC fixed in version 505-3!

That said, Lynx Rush is still used in default BM profiles while using MoC is a dps increase. They also include actions+=/readiness,wait_for_rapid_fire=1 which results in a dps loss. Using gear from the best possible dps thread is also a DPS increase.

Thanks for the input! I applied everything but the readiness change. I'll have to experiment with that since I noticed a high variance. At 25k iterations, there's only a difference of 20dps, so at the moment it's in the noise. However that reminded me to copy over the stampede rule to sync up with rapid_fire. The results are below (including most of the improvements I discussed elsewhere for MM) and will be in the next release.

DPS	Spec	Talent
107,843	Hunter_BM_T14H	crows
106,222	old_Hunter_BM_T14H	lynx
102,694	Hunter_SV_T14H	crows
102,646	Hunter_SV_T14H	lynx
102,537	Hunter_MM_T14H	crows
102,074	Hunter_MM_T14H	lynx

← Click Here

#!./simc

hunter="Hunter_BM_T14H"
origin="unknown"
level=90
race=orc
spec=beast_mastery
role=attack
position=ranged_back
professions=leatherworking=600/enchanting=600
talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#Ya!...100

actions.precombat=flask,type=spring_blossoms
actions.precombat+=/food,type=sea_mist_rice_noodles
actions.precombat+=/hunters_mark,if=target.time_to_die>=21&!debuff.ranged_vulnerability.up
actions.precombat+=/summon_pet
actions.precombat+=/trueshot_aura
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/virmens_bite_potion

actions=virmens_bite_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=60
actions+=/aspect_of_the_hawk,moving=0
actions+=/aspect_of_the_fox,moving=1
actions+=/auto_shot
actions+=/explosive_trap,if=target.adds>0
actions+=/focus_fire,five_stacks=1
actions+=/serpent_sting,if=!ticking
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/fervor,if=enabled&!ticking&focus<=65
actions+=/bestial_wrath,if=focus>60&!buff.beast_within.up
actions+=/multi_shot,if=target.adds>5
actions+=/cobra_shot,if=target.adds>5
actions+=/rapid_fire,if=!buff.rapid_fire.up
actions+=/stampede,if=buff.rapid_fire.up|buff.bloodlust.react
actions+=/kill_shot
actions+=/kill_command
actions+=/a_murder_of_crows,if=enabled&!ticking
actions+=/glaive_toss,if=enabled
actions+=/lynx_rush,if=enabled&!ticking
actions+=/dire_beast,if=enabled&focus<=90
actions+=/barrage,if=enabled
actions+=/powershot,if=enabled
actions+=/blink_strike,if=enabled
actions+=/readiness,wait_for_rapid_fire=1
actions+=/arcane_shot,if=buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react
actions+=/focus_fire,five_stacks=1,if=!ticking&!buff.beast_within.up
actions+=/cobra_shot,if=dot.serpent_sting.remains<6
actions+=/arcane_shot,if=focus>=61|buff.beast_within.up
actions+=/cobra_shot

head=yaungol_slayers_headguard,id=87004,gems=agile_primal_80agi_160hit_180agi,reforge =exp_crit
neck=choker_of_the_unleashed_storm,id=86953,reforge=mastery_hit
shoulders=waterborne_shoulderguards,id=90505,gems=160agi_60agi,enchant=200agi_100crit ,reforge=exp_haste
back=legbreaker_greatcloak,id=86963,enchant=180hit,reforge=mastery_exp
chest=yaungol_slayers_tunic,id=87002,gems=160agi_160agi,enchant=80all,reforge=mastery _haste
wrists=jagged_hornet_bracers,id=86997,enchant=500agi,reforge=mastery_crit
hands=yaungol_slayers_gloves,id=87003,enchant=170exp,reforge=hit_exp
waist=rangers_chain_of_unending_summer,id=87182,gems=160agi_160agi,reforge=exp_hit
legs=yaungol_slayers_legguards,id=87005,gems=160agi_60agi,enchant=285agi_165crit,refo rge=haste_crit
feet=monstrous_stompers,id=86985,gems=80agi_160haste_120haste,enchant=140agi,reforge= crit_exp
finger1=painful_thorned_ring,id=86974,enchant=160agi,reforge=mastery_crit
finger2=regails_band_of_the_endless,id=90503,enchant=160agi,reforge=haste_hit
trinket1=relic_of_xuen,id=79328
trinket2=terror_in_the_mists,id=87167
main_hand=taoren_the_soul_burner,id=87168,gems=500agi,enchant=lord_blastingtons_scope _of_doom,reforge=mastery_crit

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=80
# gear_agility=18787
# gear_stamina=20467
# gear_intellect=80
# gear_spirit=80
# gear_expertise_rating=2568
# gear_hit_rating=2563
# gear_crit_rating=6013
# gear_haste_rating=3957
# gear_mastery_rating=3084
# gear_armor=25465
# meta_gem=agile_primal
# tier14_2pc_melee=1
# tier14_4pc_melee=1
# main_hand=taoren_the_soul_burner,heroic=1,weapon=gun_3.00speed_10591min_19670max,ench ant=lord_blastingtons_scope_of_doom
summon_pet=cat