SimulationCraft for Hunters (Panda edition) - Page 3

Lokrick · 10/18/12, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

I just want to make a clarification ... With MoC, DB, and GT, I found the tradeoff to be around 1.3s AI cast time before the AI buff. I now find it to be closer to the 1.4s AI cast time. ... Thus, if you have sufficient haste from gear to make the AI cast time to be below about 1.3s, AI should be superior. If your cast time is greater than 1.4s, casting AS should still be superior. The cutoff point should be somewhere between these two levels, where using either should provide similar DPS, with me usually choosing to use AS since it is the safer of the two choices to use.

I ran a version that directly tested against cast_time. I don't incorporate that into the profile because it does not correctly include human reaction time, but it was worth the experiment (note: these are still with dire beast, not murder).

Rule	Aimed Count	DPS
buff.rapid_fire.up	17.8	102,602 or 102681
cast_time<=1.8	17.8	102,610
cast_time<=1.4	15.3	102,677
cast_time<=1.3	7.0	102,619

So the rule does have an affect on teh number of aimed shots, however the dps differences are well within the noise (note the difference between two runs with the current buff-based rule). I threw in the 1.8s case just to compare, and it ends up with the same number of aimed shots as just "when rapid fire is up". I think this all validates your primary rule which is to avoid aimed outside CA except during very high haste (e.g., if your raid uses Bloodlust outside CA, stack rapid fire on it), and suggests that at the current haste levels, aimed usage is indeed a wash and so stick with the safer arcane usage.

NoGoal · 10/19/12, 6:06 AM

There's something odd with scopes too.

Mirror Scope sims higher than LBSoD.

Buffs section:

Dynamic Buffs	Start	Refresh	Interval	Trigger	Up-Time	Benefit
lord_blastingtons_scope_of_doom	17.0	14.0	24.9sec	13.4sec	53.60%	55.60%
mirror_scope	9.0	0.0	51.9sec	51.9sec	20.00%	22.24%

Considering 1800 agi vs 900 crit rating and uptimes, I would expect mirror_scope to be worse.

Now looking at Stat Buff details:

mirror_scope	stat:crit_rating	amount:900.00
buff_lord_blastingtons_scope_of_doom	nothing	nothing

Lokrick · 10/19/12, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by NoGoal

There's something odd with scopes too.

Most definitely; thank you! There was a general problem with parsing stat buffs (as opposed to ratings buffs) from the spell data. The fix will be in the next release. Basically, we were missing 3.7k from the scope. There may be comparable chunks of damage missing from other classes (e.g., if they have a pure Int or Agi enchant) MM T14N comparison:

lord_blastingtons_scope_of_doom	88,712
mirror_scope	85,651
no_scope	85,014

Edit: I re-ran the full normal mode raid, and only hunters are impacted by the change. The other possible buffs that I spot checked were all manually implemented, and therefore not affected by spell-data parsing.

Edit: Zeherah spent some time with a real (virtual?) mirror scope, and determined that it has no ICD (that had already been confirmed for lbs). Removing the ICD for mirror scope raised its dps by 500. The table above is updated.

Lokrick · 02/23/13, 12:59 PM

Thanks in large measure to damien, T15 support is in the dev release of simc. Use ptr=1 to access it. New versions are generated shortly after the PTR client releases, so for example, the current version has the the +50% to chimera but not the adjustment back down to +25%. We are currently incorporating thunderforged items into the T15H profilesbut have only just started playing with gearsets. Thus, there's a single unoptimized gearset used for all the specs:

professions=blacksmithing=600/engineering=600
talents=000211
head=saurok_stalkers_headguard,id=96628,gems=capacitive_primal_80agi_160crit_180crit,reforge=hit_crit
neck=necklace_of_the_terracotta_archer,id=96702,gems=160agi_60exp
shoulders=saurok_stalkers_spaulders,id=96630,gems=160agi_80agi_160crit_120haste,enchant=200agi_100crit,reforge=hit_haste
back=grey_wind_mistcloak,id=95015,gems=80agi_160crit_60haste,enchant=180crit
chest=scales_of_shaped_flesh,id=95034,gems=160agi_160agi_160agi_180agi,enchant=80all,reforge=hit_exp
wrists=bracers_of_mutagenic_fervor,id=96494,gems=160agi,enchant=180agi,reforge=mastery_exp
hands=saurok_stalkers_gloves,id=96627,gems=160agi_160agi_60agi,enchant=170haste,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii
waist=jingling_fetishgirdle,id=95000,gems=80agi_160hit_80agi_160hit_120agi,reforge=mastery_crit
legs=saurok_stalkers_legguards,id=96629,gems=80agi_160crit_80agi_160hit_120agi,enchant=285agi_165crit,reforge=mastery_exp
feet=treads_of_the_sanguine_volley,id=95009,gems=80agi_160crit_80agi_160hit_120agi,enchant=140agi,reforge=mastery_haste
finger1=radens_swift_seal,id=95021,gems=160agi,reforge=hit_crit
finger2=goresoaked_gear,id=96513,gems=80agi_160crit_60crit,reforge=crit_exp
trinket1=bad_juju,id=96409,reforge=mastery_crit
trinket2=talisman_of_bloodlust,id=96492
main_hand=durumus_baleful_gaze,id=96472,gems=160agi_160agi_60agi,enchant=lord_blastingtons_scope_of_doom,reforge=haste_exp

Without optimization, this puts us at:

185847  33.8%  Hunter_BM_T15H
185337  33.7%  Hunter_MM_T15H
178521  32.5%  Hunter_SV_T15H

Please post here new gearsets, reforgings for different specs, better professions combinations, etc.

Lokrick · 02/23/13, 1:57 PM

During PTR and releases, there will often be minor tweaks that won't be reflected into simc until the next client deploy (because that's when they update the client spell data). This is to show how to make such tweaks from the command line so that we can analyze specs in the light of upcoming changes. First, get the current spell data to tweak (note the ptr=1 to get the ptr data):

> simc ptr=1 spell_query=class_spell.name=chimera_shot
SimulationCraft 510-11 for World of Warcraft 5.2.0 PTR (build level 16618)
Name          : Chimera Shot (id=53209) [Scaling Spell (3)]
Class         : Marksmanship Hunter
Resource      : 45 Focus
Spell Level   : 60
Range         : 40 yards
Cast Time     : Ranged Shot
GCD           : 1 seconds
Velocity      : 40 yards/sec
Cooldown      : 9 seconds
Effects       :
#1 (id=45831) : Server Side Script (77)
                Base Value: 0 | Scaled Value: 0
#2 (id=45832) : Normalized Weapon Damage (121)
                Base Value: 0 | Scaled Value: 1869.45 (avg=1.5)
#3 (id=139158): Weapon Damage% (31)
                Base Value: 315 | Scaled Value: 3.15 (avg=0)
Description   : An instant shot that causes $s3% ranged weapon Nature damage plus $<damage>, refreshing the duration of your Serpent Sting and healing you for $?s119447[${$53353m1+$119447m1}][$53353m1]% of your total health. Applies the Hunter's Mark effect.
Variables     : $damage=${$m2}

For damage, we need to override the values for effects #2 and #3. Weapon damage is always computed in terms of the average (which gets multiplied internally for level, etc.), so we will change that for #2. #3 i a constant additional amount, so we will change the base value for it. The attributes are specified by their individual IDs, and are placed after ptr=1 and before the profiles to be simulated. Thus we can resimulate MM with:

> simc.exe ptr=1 override.spell_data=effect.45832.average=1.125 override.spell_data=effect.139158.base_value=236.25 Hunter_MM_T15H.simc

Similarly for the explosive shot and black arrows changes:

simc ptr=1 override.spell_data=effect.45937.average=0.308 override.spell_data=effect.170217.average=0.308 override.spell_data=effect.1289.average=0.1265 Hunter_SV_T15H.simc

These all easily combine into a single run, as long as all the overrides are before the profiles:

> simc.exe ptr=1 override.spell_data=effect.45832.average=1.125 override.spell_data=effect.139158.base_value=236.25 override.spell_data=effect.45937.average=0.308 override.spell_data=effect.170217.average=0.308 override.spell_data=effect.1289.average=0.1265 Hunter_SV_T15H.simc Hunter_MM_T15H.simc Hunter_BM_T15H.simc

 184903  34.0%  Hunter_BM_T15H
 180104  33.1%  Hunter_MM_T15H
 178912  32.9%  Hunter_SV_T15H

Note that this is still with unoptimized gear.

Edit: My estimates of their corrections weren't quite right, and I missed one effect. The current dev version has the correct numbers, resulting in:

> simc.exe ptr=1 Hunter_T14H.simc
126633  33.7%  Hunter_BM_T14H
125272  33.3%  Hunter_MM_T14H
124125  33.0%  Hunter_SV_T14H

> simc.exe ptr=1 Hunter_BM_T15H.simc Hunter_MM_T15H.simc Hunter_SV_T15H.simc
543163 100.0%  Raid
184603  34.0%  Hunter_BM_T15H
181897  33.5%  Hunter_MM_T15H
176662  32.5%  Hunter_SV_T15H

Note that this profile includes some Thunderforged items. Since those are expected to be fairly rare, we plan to remove those from the T15 profiles.

cmwilli · 04/08/13, 2:02 AM

I ran a reforge plot comparing crit/haste/mastery and received the following picture. I am unsure how to read it. I was unable to find anything in these forums or the Simulation Craft wiki. From my knowledge about the class, I'm assuming red is higher dps and blue is lower dps. The shape however confuses me. I would have expected it to be a triangle with each point representing all reforging to a single stat. With six points, I would guess that 3 points would represent a single stat and the remaining 3 points would be two stats and none of the 3rd but the graph seems to indicate each pure single stat as a side not a point.

To help me understand could you point out the location of some test points. For example
100% Crit
50% Crit 50% Haste
50% Crit 25% Haste 25% Mastery
33% Crit 33% Haste 33% Mastery

Lokrick · 04/08/13, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by cmwilli

I ran a reforge plot comparing crit/haste/mastery and received the following picture. I am unsure how to read it. I was unable to find anything in these forums or the Simulation Craft wiki. From my knowledge about the class, I'm assuming red is higher dps and blue is lower dps. The shape however confuses me. I would have expected it to be a triangle ...

I primarily use the command line so I'm less familiar with the GUI. That's a 2-d representation of a N-d result, and so is necessarily not going to be obvious. However, the triangle vs. hexagon may actually be a presentation bug; can you file an issue for simulationcraft with the details of your sim?

You can find the raw data in the generated CSV file (typically named reforge_chart.csv) and examine it yourself with a spreadsheet. Each variant that gets simulated will be represented in a single row, as in:

crit_rating	haste_rating	mastery_rating	DPS	DPS-Error
-3200	0	3200	113798.9027	169.919018
-3200	320	2880	113750.723	169.151617...

Finding the max DPS rows in any spreadsheet is pretty straightforward (e.g., sort or color the table by the dps row).

Lokrick · 04/13/13, 3:38 PM

I've updated the hunter module for MoP Patch 5.3 PTR – Build 16837: Hunter Buffs, which includes the increase to Aspect of the Hawk and the initial Blink Strikes spec (conveniently, Blizzard named it slightly differently from Blink Strike). Below is a comparison of Murder with Blink Strikes for the gear set which is reforged Crit>Haste>Mastery.

> simc.exe ptr=1 threads=7 iterations=10000 Hunter_BM_T15H.simc Hunter_MM_T15H.simc Hunter_SV_T15H.simc

208681  34.5%  Hunter_BM_T15H
200393  33.2%  Hunter_SV_T15H
195033  32.3%  Hunter_MM_T15H

> simc.exe ptr=1 threads=7 iterations=10000 Hunter_BM_T15H.simc talents=000221 Hunter_MM_T15H.simc talents=000221 Hunter_SV_T15H.simc  talents=000221

 210071  34.9%  Hunter_BM_T15H
 199016  33.1%  Hunter_SV_T15H
 192809  32.0%  Hunter_MM_T15H

Lokrick · 04/14/13, 1:06 AM

Based on the recent discussion of reforging priorities, I tested the haste > crit > mastery reforging (it's currently crit > haste > mastery), and it's a dps improvement for all profiles.

Edit: I added correct ring enchant for the C>H>M numbers for BM and MM, which brought them a little closer. But I also noticed some problems with the profiles, so I'll update when I fix that.

NoGoal · 04/14/13, 5:16 AM

I've noticed that Beast Cleave isn't implemented for BM Hunters. Could you add it?

Lokrick · 04/14/13, 6:54 PM

Originally Posted by NoGoal

I've noticed that Beast Cleave isn't implemented for BM Hunters. Could you add it?

I took a look today, but to implement it, I need a clear characterization of the effect. The second-hand characterization I have so far doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'll eventually get time to answer these questions myself, but if someone else can do so, it will move the implementation along. Here's several questions, some of which I've heard conflicting answers to:

Which abilities are affected?
Is it a separate attack for each target?
Can it crit each target and if so, are they independent?
What buffs and debuffs apply to each target?
Do stampede pets also get the buff?
Are these answers different in 5.3 (I think it used to apply to KC but now doesn't with the buff?)

NoGoal · 04/15/13, 5:08 AM

Which abilities are affected? Basic and Melee attacks.
Is it a separate attack for each target?
Can it crit each target and if so, are they independent? It doesn't crit, but if 'main' attack crits, it does calculate from crit to all targets
What buffs and debuffs apply to each target?
Do stampede pets also get the buff? No
Are these answers different in 5.3 (I think it used to apply to KC but now doesn't with the buff?) KC doesn't trigger it in 5.2

Some examples (Tauren with Devilsaur in raid):
Pet Hit 11156 -> Beast Cleave 5801-5802
Pet Crit 22312 -> Beast Cleave 11602
Bite Crit 28097 -> Beast Cleave 14611

Lokrick · 04/15/13, 3:14 PM

Originally Posted by NoGoal

Which abilities are affected? Basic and Melee attacks.
Is it a separate attack for each target?
Can it crit each target and if so, are they independent? It doesn't crit, but if 'main' attack crits, it does calculate from crit to all targets
What buffs and debuffs apply to each target?
Do stampede pets also get the buff? No
Are these answers different in 5.3 (I think it used to apply to KC but now doesn't with the buff?) KC doesn't trigger it in 5.2

Some examples (Tauren with Devilsaur in raid):
Pet Hit 11156 -> Beast Cleave 5801-5802
Pet Crit 22312 -> Beast Cleave 11602
Bite Crit 28097 -> Beast Cleave 14611

Those numbers are neither 30% nor 75%; I presume they are from some intermediate state on the PTR? Regardless, looking at the #2 BM parse from Wind Lord, the other questions are answered: It's not a separate attack (it's just a reflection of damage) and each target has their debuffs applied to the damage. In that log, the skull secondary targets takes consistently 4% more physical damage (suggesting a debuff), and Wind Lord takes a small fraction less (suggesting better armor since it doesn't correspond to a buff amount).

Edit: I had forgotten the 5.2 buff for Beast Cleave, which is fine since the key question is mechanics. My numbers above are from a January report when it was still 30%. Simc picks those numbers up automatically from spell data, so the buff was incorporated automatically.

Effinhunter · 04/15/13, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by Lokrick

Those numbers are neither 30% nor 75%; I presume they are from some intermediate state on the PTR? Regardless, looking at the #2 BM parse from Wind Lord, the other questions are answered: It's not a separate attack (it's just a reflection of damage) and each target has their debuffs applied to the damage. In that log, the skull secondary targets takes consistently 4% more physical damage (suggesting a debuff), and Wind Lord takes a small fraction less (suggesting better armor since it doesn't correspond to a buff amount).

They appear to be the 50% modifier that is currently in 5.2. 30% was the previous value of Beast Cleave. We are currently at 50% in game, and we are being buffed to 75% on the 5.3 PTR.

Lokrick · 04/18/13, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by NoGoal

I've noticed that Beast Cleave isn't implemented for BM Hunters. Could you add it?

It's now implemented and will be in the next release. The one thing I'm unsure of is the handling of armor for the cleaved. Based on a little bit of log data, it looked to me like armor applies. However for vaguely similar abilities like blade flurry, the code ignores armor on secondary targets. Please PM me with any discrepancy you see in the result.