[MoP] Beastmastery 5.2 - Page 3

Chillbow · 09/05/12, 9:17 AM

When you're saying ( GT ) What exactly does that mean?! Can't figure it out for the life of me, please help.. Cheers

NoGoal · 09/05/12, 9:52 AM

GT == Glaive Toss; the level 90 talent.

Hamsda · 09/05/12, 9:54 AM

Originally Posted by Chillbow

When you're saying ( GT ) What exactly does that mean?! Can't figure it out for the life of me, please help.. Cheers

GT refers to one of the lvl90 hunter talents, Glaive Toss. Currently it sims the highest benefits and thus will likely be chosen once MoP and the new raid content is released. (of course these things can always change)

Namarus · 09/05/12, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Pathemeous

How do others handle LR?
Personally, I use 2x LR in the opener. I tried leaving them out but that greatly reduces the burst potential (8K difference IIRC).
This would suggest that spending a GCD on Lynx Rush during BW as opposed to an AS is a big gain and therefore LR should be stacked with BW as much as posisble without lowering the amount of LR in total.
In a fight that lasts less than ~3:12 minutes, which means there will be room for 3x LR (one in both BW in the opener, one after the CD has ended mid-fight), it would therefore be beneficial to delay LR by 30 seconds after it comes off CD to spend it during the next BW

This is a burning question for me. On longer fights is it better to use LR, stacking it with BW or to just use it every time it's up.

Napkin math ahead.

200%x9x1.2 = 2160% for a Bestial Wrath modified Lynx Rush

200%x9 = 1800% standard Lynx Rush

Saving LR for every BW gives you 6 total for a 6m18s = 12,960%

If you don't save LR for use with BW then over the same period gives 4 x(LR+BW) + 3x(LR) = 14,040% (note I delayed the use the final 2 LR by 6s to use BW with them).

Fluflis · 09/07/12, 5:40 AM

Originally Posted by Namarus

This is a burning question for me. On longer fights is it better to use LR, stacking it with BW or to just use it every time it's up.

Napkin math ahead.

200%x9x1.2 = 2160% for a Bestial Wrath modified Lynx Rush

200%x9 = 1800% standard Lynx Rush

Saving LR for every BW gives you 6 total for a 6m18s = 12,960%

If you don't save LR for use with BW then over the same period gives 4 x(LR+BW) + 3x(LR) = 14,040% (note I delayed the use the final 2 LR by 6s to use BW with them).

Same rule as usual applies there, if by waiting to line it up with BW makes you lose one use of Lynx Rush then it's not worth waiting. If you know that you have time for only one Lynx Rush till boss dies and you can line it up with BW it's gain. Two Lynx Rush out of BW > One Lynx Rush with BW.

Also if you have Rabid macroed with Lynx Rush you don't only delay Lynx Rush but Rabid as well.

For the opener you were discussing, dont forget that on pulls we also use a pot so maybe Rapid Fire is not of best use with all cooldowns stacking at start till we use Readiness but early use means we get to use 2 BW within the pot timer.

Namarus · 09/07/12, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Fluflis

Same rule as usual applies there, if by waiting to line it up with BW makes you lose one use of Lynx Rush then it's not worth waiting. If you know that you have time for only one Lynx Rush till boss dies and you can line it up with BW it's gain. Two Lynx Rush out of BW > One Lynx Rush with BW.

Also if you have Rabid macroed with Lynx Rush you don't only delay Lynx Rush but Rabid as well.

For the opener you were discussing, dont forget that on pulls we also use a pot so maybe Rapid Fire is not of best use with all cooldowns stacking at start till we use Readiness but early use means we get to use 2 BW within the pot timer.

Good point, something else to consider, is that generally Rapid Fire for BM is not a very good dps cooldown.

However, combined with pot+BW increases pet focus regeneration

1. Increasing hunter focus regeneration increases pet energy regeneration.

2.More autoshots means more potential critical strikes with autoshot while agility bonus from pot is active. This increases pet focus regeneration.

3. More pet focus means higher damaged pet Basic Attacks which is further increased while BW is active.

Lokrick · 09/07/12, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by Namarus

Good point, something else to consider, is that generally Rapid Fire for BM is not a very good dps cooldown.

Concretely, we can run that in simc. The invocation below suppresses rapid fire and changes readiness not to wait for it. I checked that the resulting html had the right number of readiness and rapid fires.

> simc ptr=1 Hunter_BM_T14N.simc copy=BM_no_RF skip_actions=rapid_fire modify_action=readiness html=bm_no_rf.html

84903  50.6%  Hunter_BM_T14N
83048  49.4%  BM_no_RF

So rapid fire is worth 1.9k for BM in T14N using the current profiles.

Nooska · 09/08/12, 3:32 AM

My understanding of the point Namarus is making, is that because RF is a pretty lackluster CD for BM, there is really no reason to not use it during BW anymore, even though we don't benefit from the haste directly, because of the increased forcus refen for both us and pet (are we sure RF increases pet focus regen? - will check in beta when I log on there later today).

Azortharion · 09/08/12, 6:20 AM

Based on the math, theorycrafting and my own testing / analyzing of beta logs and the likes, this kind of opening sequence is what I have come up with, ensuring you get the most out of your buffs:

SrS (effective opener, makes it easier to start off, too)> RF + BW > DB > LR (or Blink Strike) > KC > Readiness > DB (two beasts) > LR > AS > (two AS' to make sure the pet has finished doing the first rush)AS > LR > BW + RF.

This ensures that you are using your pet cooldowns within BW range to start with, and allows for maximum spammage of Arcane Shot, having considered the points made above with how RF functions well with BW, but not so much alone.

Nooska · 09/08/12, 6:39 AM

Having just completed a couple of tests on the "internal test bosses" where I let the pet attack the boss till focus was the limiting factor of basic attacks, then observing it for a while, then using RF, I feel confident that RF does affect pet focus regen (despite being ranged haste).
Specifically I observed mostly 5, sometimes 4 seconds between basic attacks (claw in this case) after letting my pet drain itself of focus. Popping RF increased the frequency to just over 3 seconds on average while RF was up. At no time did I myself attack the boss, so GftT was not a factor.

One thing I can certainly say as a biproduct of this testing, is that crit is worth a lot more than mastery untill we get enough GftT procs that the pet is never focus starved for basic attacks, this is likely the reason for thej variation in crit value that I observed at earlier simming.
That the pet doe snot generate enough focus to use basic attacks on cd also explains why haste at lower gear levels seem more attractive (valuation wise), because it affects pet focus regen twice - base focus regen and autoshot speed - neither one nor both combined will analytically make haste = crit at any point for pet focus though.

NoGoal · 09/08/12, 7:36 AM

Originally Posted by Azortharion

Based on the math, theorycrafting and my own testing / analyzing of beta logs and the likes, this kind of opening sequence is what I have come up with, ensuring you get the most out of your buffs:

SrS (effective opener, makes it easier to start off, too)> RF + BW > DB > LR (or Blink Strike) > KC > Readiness > DB (two beasts) > LR > AS > (two AS' to make sure the pet has finished doing the first rush)AS > LR > BW + RF.

This ensures that you are using your pet cooldowns within BW range to start with, and allows for maximum spammage of Arcane Shot, having considered the points made above with how RF functions well with BW, but not so much alone.

It's missing a few KCs there. I usually use Readiness after the 2nd KC so you can have 3 KC on your first BW.

Fluflis · 09/08/12, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by Azortharion

SrS (effective opener, makes it easier to start off, too)> RF + BW > DB > LR (or Blink Strike) > KC > Readiness > DB (two beasts) > LR > AS > (two AS' to make sure the pet has finished doing the first rush)AS > LR > BW + RF.

It has to be Readiness > KC so you can fit a third KC at the end of Bestial Wrath. Same as yours but ... > KC > Readiness > KC > DB > Lynx > ... > KC (before first BW ends). In the dots I don't remember how many arcane shots it fits.
For the second BW you will have to wait a bit so you ensure you will cast 2 KC in it (wait first RF to end, maybe shoot a cobra to keep sting a bit longer) and you dont have to use RF at same time with second BW. Right now that's what I do and the best burst I have managed is around 110k+ according to Skada (without Vial of Shadows since it hasn't made me the honor to drop). Most hunters I've seen is around that kind of burst more or less.

Also I believe we can work the same opener even at 90 with GT. Probably casting DB before RF+BW to win that gcd since it is tight for the 3rd KC and then adding the second GT in the dots, while making sure second Lynx is full within the first BW.

And Nooska I remember there was a Blue post explaining that Ranged attack speed affects pet focus regen (but not attack speed) and Melee attack speed affects his attack speed (but not pet focus regen). That's how those 2 buffs interact with pet. I will have to find it though.

Rivkah · 09/08/12, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Fluflis

And Nooska I remember there was a Blue post explaining that Ranged attack speed affects pet focus regen (but not attack speed) and Melee attack speed affects his attack speed (but not pet focus regen). That's how those 2 buffs interact with pet. I will have to find it though.

Yes, I did test every haste/attack speed generating ability recently and I determined that was how it was working (and blue confirmed it). What it looks like is that the pet inherits the focus regen multiplier from haste directly from the hunter, instead of generating its own multiplier from the pet attack speed. That's why the ranged haste affects the pet in regen, but not in attack speed (since the pet inherits the melee attack speed bonuses). So focus fire also gives the pet not only direct regen from using it, but also the regen from the haste multiplier on the hunter.

One thing I'm not sure about is if the PvP set bonus affects the pet's regen- I don't have the PvP gear to test it myself. Currently I don't have it modeled as affecting the pet but if someone has the opportunity to test it and finds out otherwise please let me know.

Namarus · 09/09/12, 12:36 AM

My understanding of the point Namarus is making, is that because RF is a pretty lackluster CD for BM, there is really no reason to not use it during BW anymore, even though we don't benefit from the haste directly, because of the increased forcus refen for both us and pet (are we sure RF increases pet focus regen? - will check in beta when I log on there later today).

This is exactly the point I was trying to make, but you made it better. Thank you for the interpretation.

Originally Posted by Nooska

Having just completed a couple of tests on the "internal test bosses" where I let the pet attack the boss till focus was the limiting factor of basic attacks, then observing it for a while, then using RF, I feel confident that RF does affect pet focus regen (despite being ranged haste).
Specifically I observed mostly 5, sometimes 4 seconds between basic attacks (claw in this case) after letting my pet drain itself of focus. Popping RF increased the frequency to just over 3 seconds on average while RF was up. At no time did I myself attack the boss, so GftT was not a factor.

One thing I can certainly say as a biproduct of this testing, is that crit is worth a lot more than mastery untill we get enough GftT procs that the pet is never focus starved for basic attacks, this is likely the reason for thej variation in crit value that I observed at earlier simming.
That the pet doe snot generate enough focus to use basic attacks on cd also explains why haste at lower gear levels seem more attractive (valuation wise), because it affects pet focus regen twice - base focus regen and autoshot speed - neither one nor both combined will analytically make haste = crit at any point for pet focus though.

Yes, GC has stated that pet regen is based on hunter focus regen. I think it was 1.25 multiplier. Therefore anything that improves hunter passive focus regeneration will improve pet passive focus regeneration. The point is, it makes sense to maximise pet damage during BW and Rapid Fire is a decent cooldown to use when you use BW for pet focus regneration. Especially since it is unlikely that FF will be up due to saving frenzy stacks for BW.

NoGoal · 09/09/12, 4:21 AM

For accuracy and if I remember correctly, he stated that pets have a base of 5 fps and everything affecting hunter's regen also affects pets. hunters have a base of 4 fps hence the simplified 1.25 model.