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Old 10/24/12, 7:49 PM   #91
Megasandwich
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Area 52
Originally Posted by Nithael View Post
I'm doing something similar but with some differences... (Using Linx Rush)

SrS
BW/RF
Stampede
LR
GT
KC
DB
AS until KC cooldown is ready
KC
Readiness
KC
BW
LR
GT
DB
SrS
KC, then normal rotation
RF when BW is off

It works pretty well for me. I'm doing ~200K (+/- 10K) DPS at the beginning of the fight.
One simple thing I notice here would be the way to guys are using your major CDs,(Stampede and Lynx rush). These are our biggest forms of burst so instead of blowing all those right away (lynx rush not as critical) but you need to wait for trinket procs, scope proc, (should be pre-potting) engineering gloves, etc and w/e racials you have before popping stampede.

I think the highest AP Ive been at when popping a stampede was 85k, where as if you dont wait for trinkets, etc., your AP will be much much lower (in my case around 60k). So that alone is 25k AP your stampede didnt get, thats alot of extra dmg thats lost. Now obviously every single proc wont be perfect every pull but it is still a good habit to follow.

There are plenty of addons that can help with this in terms of showing you your current AP and trinket/CD procs.

You can also check some of my logs if you wish for other ability breakdowns that I use. Ive had many parses in the top 10s for BM as well as SV. (not bragging just putting it out there that I had a good understanding of how to have elite dps as both specs.)

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Old 10/25/12, 2:09 AM   #92
Rustyboy
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Hunter
 
Frostmourne
Stampede lasts for 20 secs from the time they attack your target so they will be up for most of your full opening rotation and is retro-active, as you use cooldowns and trinkets proc etc the stampede'd pets gain the benefit.

Sometimes at the start of the fight I've had my Relic trinket not proc for up to 12+ secs even with Skull Banner, so I'm not sure if waiting for procs would be consistently the best solution.

As far as parses are concerned at the moment it's very hard to compare anything from WoL due to the fact they only recently started separating normal/heroic and there are a lot of hunter's out there who still to not have a weapon better than 463 ilvl.

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Old 10/25/12, 3:20 AM   #93
 Tobin
Captain Slow
 
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Pandaren Hunter
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Nithael View Post
I'm doing something similar but with some differences... (Using Linx Rush)

SrS
BW/RF
Stampede
LR
GT
KC
You should be using Kill Command with your first BW. KC has a 6 second cooldown so you can get another before your initial BW runs out, hit Readiness and use it again. You can in fact macro BW/RF/KC all into one bind and also have a separate KC/Readiness macro to save a precious milliseconds.

Originally Posted by Bryne View Post
jesus christ Tobin kill it

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Old 11/03/12, 1:10 PM   #94
Adaliaa
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Moon Guard
I'd like to point out that I'm seeing a lot of people stating they pop BW before Stampede and/or Dire Beast. This seems less than ideal to me. Stampede lasts 20 seconds and Dire Beast 15 seconds and neither costs focus. In other words, you can use both of them before BW and have them last throughout the whole ten seconds while fitting in two more Arcanes. What I do is more like:

SrS
Stampede
DB
BW/RF
KC

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Old 11/03/12, 9:08 PM   #95
sircuddles
Glass Joe
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by Adaliaa View Post
I'd like to point out that I'm seeing a lot of people stating they pop BW before Stampede and/or Dire Beast. This seems less than ideal to me. Stampede lasts 20 seconds and Dire Beast 15 seconds and neither costs focus. In other words, you can use both of them before BW and have them last throughout the whole ten seconds while fitting in two more Arcanes. What I do is more like:

SrS
Stampede
DB
BW/RF
KC
I think Stampede might be best to wait to cast until you see Trinkets/Stormlash/Crit Banner active. Depends on fight length, but usually you can wait to cast Stampede for a while before you would lose one over the fight. I'm not sure if opening with SrS is worth it either, since you can't refresh it before it runs out, I assume an AS is a better use of a GCD.

As for DB, I can see casting it before BW/RF if the haste gains of RF are worth less than an AS. Not sure if that's the case.

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Old 11/04/12, 3:42 AM   #96
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
First thing we need to establish is that focuscapping is not a loss of dps, and the only way to avoid focuscapping in the first ~25 seconds on a standard fight (not saving readiness for later) is suboptimal use of gcds.

You want to pop off BW before stampede, because your priority in the beginning of a fight is dictated by which cooldowns get reset by readiness, and pop them first, then readiness, then you pop cooldowns dependant on priority. After a readiness you use abilities with the shortest non-zero cooldown first, so KC, GT, DB, Stampede, then you use AS untill the first BW/RF runs out. It is more effecient to extedn SrS with 1 or 2 CoS between the first to BWs than to immediatelty pop them. The more focus you come out of the second BW with, the more damage you can pump out after it ends.

CoS to refresh is more damage than SrS to reapply, and you have to remember that if you let SrS drop off its not an AS to CoS comparison you have to make, but an SrS to AS comparison, including focus cost, and if you prop up the rolling SrS during RF (which you should, as RF is longer than BW) it is only 1 AS that is pushed if you use 1 CoS, and 2 if you use 2, at which point you would have pushed/replaced those AS anyway, you would just have done it later in the fight.

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Old 11/04/12, 7:03 PM   #97
Arktem
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Firetree
Originally Posted by Nooska View Post
First thing we need to establish is that focuscapping is not a loss of dps, and the only way to avoid focuscapping in the first ~25 seconds on a standard fight (not saving readiness for later) is suboptimal use of gcds.

You want to pop off BW before stampede, because your priority in the beginning of a fight is dictated by which cooldowns get reset by readiness, and pop them first, then readiness, then you pop cooldowns dependant on priority. After a readiness you use abilities with the shortest non-zero cooldown first, so KC, GT, DB, Stampede, then you use AS untill the first BW/RF runs out. It is more effecient to extedn SrS with 1 or 2 CoS between the first to BWs than to immediatelty pop them. The more focus you come out of the second BW with, the more damage you can pump out after it ends.

CoS to refresh is more damage than SrS to reapply, and you have to remember that if you let SrS drop off its not an AS to CoS comparison you have to make, but an SrS to AS comparison, including focus cost, and if you prop up the rolling SrS during RF (which you should, as RF is longer than BW) it is only 1 AS that is pushed if you use 1 CoS, and 2 if you use 2, at which point you would have pushed/replaced those AS anyway, you would just have done it later in the fight.
I'm trying to understand your reasoning behind this, but I simply can't. Your opening rotation would be a very heavy DPS loss due to losing much of your Prepot on your opener. By delaying those larger cooldowns until after you have done your Readiness opener, many of your major cooldowns will lose not only Trinket procs, but your Prepot as well.

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Old 11/05/12, 4:18 AM   #98
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Arktem View Post
I'm trying to understand your reasoning behind this, but I simply can't. Your opening rotation would be a very heavy DPS loss due to losing much of your Prepot on your opener. By delaying those larger cooldowns until after you have done your Readiness opener, many of your major cooldowns will lose not only Trinket procs, but your Prepot as well.
-1: HM, Prepot etc.
0: BW/RF (off GCD)
0: SrS (pet moving to boss)
1: KC
2: DB
3: GT
4: MoC/LR
5: CoS (Waiting for KC to get off CD and extending SrS, RF in effect)*
6: AS (still waiting for KC)
7: KC
8: Readiness
9: KC
10: GT
11: DB
12: Stampede
13: BW/RF (off gcd)
13: KC
14: CoS (to extend SrS untill the end of the second BW)*

In the above, you use DB and Stampede while not under BW, at 15 and on you continue your normal priority/rotation, and you are still under the effects of your prepot. Trinkets vary in usefulness, but you should still be under the effect of your trinkets for most of this, and there i simply no way you can cram any more high damage into the first 15-20 seconds for trinkets (remember they have to trigger, too, which they won't do till at least 1 in this (1 being where your 0 has hit and the GCD from it is off).

Yes you will be capping focus for especiallythe firts part of this (pre readiness), but again, it is not a loss to cap focus unless that focus could have been converted to more damage, and in this case it simply can't. AS is the lowest of our priorities, just above CoS. With RF CoS has the "same"* casttime as AS, and with CoS extending an SrS the damage that would be lost by letting SrS drop needs to be added to CoS, as well as the damage your focus spent reaplying SrS could have bought you from AS. All in all, while using CoS caps your focus, it is more damage per time casting, more damage per focus (even ignoring the gain, as its just capping) than spending .3 seconds less (or less) using an AS, and letting SrS drop.

* - in reality its not nicely 1 second casts of course, but with RF and as little haste as I can get, I am seeing 1.3 second casttimes, and .3 seconds being the optimal delay of shots to delay, means that in this napkinny show and tell, I'll consider the casttiem equal to the gcd.

Last edited by Nooska : 11/05/12 at 4:23 AM. Reason: Added in quote for context.

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Old 11/05/12, 5:24 PM   #99
Physiq
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Hunter
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
I was wondering if there are any thought about tracking beast cleave on our pet (since it is a 4 sec buff) for aoe phases?
I do not have the tools for testing it myself so I put this out for the community.

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Old 11/06/12, 3:59 AM   #100
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Beast cleave is rather easy to "track". If you are in a sustained AoE situation, you want to keep BC up, and you want to MS as much as possible, so the easy way is to do ||: MS, CoS, CoS :||, that will get you slightly under 4 seconds between MS, which will "refresh" BC before it expires, thus making sure you do not lose a single pet autoattack.
Excess focus can be channeled into a KC or extra MS depending on which is more favorable for the group you are aoe'ing.

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Old 11/07/12, 8:34 PM   #101
Esoth
Bald Bull
 
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Pandaren Hunter
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by Nooska View Post
You want to pop off BW before stampede, because your priority in the beginning of a fight is dictated by which cooldowns get reset by readiness, and pop them first, then readiness, then you pop cooldowns dependant on priority. After a readiness you use abilities with the shortest non-zero cooldown first, so KC, GT, DB, Stampede, then you use AS untill the first BW/RF runs out. It is more effecient to extedn SrS with 1 or 2 CoS between the first to BWs than to immediatelty pop them. The more focus you come out of the second BW with, the more damage you can pump out after it ends.
Originally Posted by Arktem View Post
I'm trying to understand your reasoning behind this, but I simply can't. Your opening rotation would be a very heavy DPS loss due to losing much of your Prepot on your opener. By delaying those larger cooldowns until after you have done your Readiness opener, many of your major cooldowns will lose not only Trinket procs, but your Prepot as well.
I have to agree with Arktem here for a few reasons. This quote from Rustyboy, and the fact that Stampede is our highest use ability, is important: "Stampede lasts for 20 secs from the time they attack your target so they will be up for most of your full opening rotation and is retro-active, as you use cooldowns and trinkets proc etc the stampede'd pets gain the benefit." As far as I can tell from testing this seems to be true and suggests that we hit Stampede immediately. Virmen's Bite is by far our biggest agility proc (4000) and lasts for 25 seconds. With a pre-pot and a few milliseconds padding between popping it and the pull we can take advantage of that entire potion plus anything else that procs in that time will at least have some use. This is the most likely time in the entire fight to have stacking procs since the cooldowns are all aligned. Delaying the Stampede until after Readiness means you are missing most of your prepot, if not all of it, and have a lesser chance of using other procs. This means you are applying a bigger damage boost to abilities that hit less for the gain of moving them 1s.

As far as actually testing this, the default for Female Dwarf uses no pre-pot so we have to first turn this on. The default also has Stampede used before Readiness, but moving it around I notice very little variance, but the highest damage has Stampede somewhere between top priority and before Readiness, but only with about 500/90000 = .5% variance. On my own spreadsheet using Stampede first is always the top damage, even regardless of pre-pot. Honestly, the variance is so low that it doesn't look like setting up an exact best-case opening rotation is more significant than simply adhering to a rule of "pop all of your CDs at the start, Readiness, repeat as needed."

Alts: http://www.esoth.com/wow/my-characters
Ion: Along with asking why we fight, and learning that our true enemy is war itself, a major theme of the Mists of Pandaria has been killing turtles
Hunter spreadsheet: http://www.esoth.com/files/mop/at_download/file

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Old 11/08/12, 4:43 AM   #102
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Esoth View Post
Honestly, the variance is so low that it doesn't look like setting up an exact best-case opening rotation is more significant than simply adhering to a rule of "pop all of your CDs at the start, Readiness, repeat as needed."
I think this is the imporant part to take with us - which I have to agree with, and also is the reason I haven't done a "best opening sequence" before now, and only doing it to disprove that "many of [our] major cooldowns will lose not only Trinket procs, but your Prepot as well", as such I would not put forth the sequence I posted as a "best opener" but more as "proof" that prepot and trinket procs weren't lost for many of the major cooldowns.
If stampede is dynamic, then we want to use it earlier, no doubt, if it snapshots, the 12 second mark I have is as good as any other place within the first ~15 seconds. I haven't noticed / seen any testing of stampede (mentioned), if you have tested it and it is dynamic, I will update OP with that information, and I agree that we should use stampede earlier then (within the first ~5 seconds to get full prepot benefit) - specifically, in the sequence I posted I would move it to 2, and skip 6 for a loss of 0/6 KC and 0/30 DB thanks to readiness, so at a cost of "delaying" 1 AS to later in the fight.

Of course all the discussion about optimal opener ignores the fact that "optimal" isn't optimal for every fight, so I will at no point post an optimal opener in the OP unless consensus ends up being that there is such a thing regardless of fight.
Also, specifically stampede, being a 5 minute CD unaffected by readiness, is something I don't think we should specifically think of as being in the priority, as we get 1-2 pops in a fight of it, and like BL we should save it for the phase where damage output is most needed (as long as we don't lose a stampede over the fight for pushing it).

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Old 11/08/12, 12:13 PM   #103
Tphirey
Order 66 Survivor
 
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Goblin Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Zeherah will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that pre-pot (and normal pot) are both averaged over the course of the fight on FD rather than a true pre-pot which would only last ~23 seconds at the start of the fight. This would be one reason why you are seeing very little variance. Esoth, I'm not sure how your spreadsheet does the calculations either, but Simulacraft may have a better calculation of the increase that Stampede gets from Virmen's Bite.

I don't need luck. I have ammo. - Grunt

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Old 11/08/12, 10:17 PM   #104
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Tphirey View Post
Zeherah will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that pre-pot (and normal pot) are both averaged over the course of the fight on FD rather than a true pre-pot which would only last ~23 seconds at the start of the fight. This would be one reason why you are seeing very little variance. Esoth, I'm not sure how your spreadsheet does the calculations either, but Simulationcraft may have a better calculation of the increase that Stampede gets from Virmen's Bite.
This is correct- the only proc/use effect stat which gets simulated as part of your rotation is haste- stats like agil are averaged over the course of the fight. Simulationcraft would be your best bet for testing this in detail.

My site simulates a prepot as 1 sec below the normal pot duration.

I can also confirm that stampede (and dire beast) have dynamic stat updates. I'm not sure if they're instantaneous, but they definitely don't freeze based on when it's cast. I believe most pets were updated to use this mechanic in 5.0.

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Old 11/09/12, 4:09 AM   #105
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Changed OP to reflect dynamic updates on stampede pets, also changed some text on BW that I missed when I wrote up the BW/RF pairing.

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