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Old 09/18/12, 1:01 AM   #16
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
Would you consider a max dps list for Challenges? It would be a little different from the normal tier stuff, since tier bonuses don't work in Challenges.
I haven't been following challenges that closely. Are there some rules posted somewhere about how they work? I could look at implementing a challenge mode flag on the site, but I'd need to know more about the mechanics of what happens with gear and such.

I fixed the frenzy bug on my site, so any BM sims that weren't including Focus Fire should be recalculated to see what the correct dps is. I also added support for stampede pets getting invigoration, so that will affect things a bit as well.

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Old 09/18/12, 3:31 AM   #17
Nooska
King Hippo
 
Nooska's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Lokrick View Post
Further digging into the html results shows for example that the no_focus_fire case gets only 28 more melee swings during the fight. So focus_fire is still worth 2.5k dps to use.
Also, from an analytical standpoint, the attacks you gain are pet melee, while you will lose out on some pet basic attacks - Focus Fire refunds focus to the pet for more basic attacks (or alternatively wild hunt procs).

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Old 09/18/12, 9:30 AM   #18
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
I did a quick optimization with putting FF back into the BM rotations now that the bug is fixed.

It appears though that it is best to use FF when you have nothing else to do but CoS to regain focus. What I mean by this is that everything else is on CD (including ET) and you do not meet the minimum focus requirement desired to cast AS (around 63). Since I am not really familar with BM, I am not 100% sure concerning about how that affects its number of uses since FD does not indicate when its available for use relative to when it is used as far as I can see.

Looking at the times between FF, I see a decent amount of variability between 34s and 49s, which indicates to me that the cast is indeed being delayed in many cases. Here is the breakdown with some additional information:

TimeTime Since LastFocusNote
42.3-26.3A few seconds after RF pair and then BL has completed
80.33829.0 
123.142.854.9 
165.742.632.3 
209.343.621.9Occurred during RF
245.035.751.9 
288.643.654.6 
337.948.357.6Had Readiness use with double DB for focus and a RF
377.439.521.2 
411.534.114.5 

From a binomial probability, I would expect for between 11 and 12 pet basic attacks to fully stack Frenzy. That would mean on average that fully stacked Frenzies should occur roughly every 36 to 40s, assuming a basic attack speed of 3.3. Although in the sim, the pet did attack in most cases at around 3.3 to 3.4s, there were a few cases of almost 5s between basic attacks, which will skewthings a bit.

I also do not know how Frenzy stacks are modeled in FD - whether each basic attack actually has a probability to gain a stack or whether some average number of attacks is used. I assume the former, which also results in more variability in the number of attacks between FFs.

But I would assume that the FF cast is being delayed a little in some of the situations in which it occurred. I am wondering whether it would be hard to update FD to instead just indicating whether Frenzy is up to also indicate the number of stacks by appending the number or to at least indicate when Frenzy is fully stacked so we can evaluate what the delays in FF casts are and whether it is actually beneficial to delay it in certain situations.

While it may be good to delay casting FF is some situations, it may not be good in other situations. It is obviously good to delay casting FF when you are under procs that increase your stats that are inherited by your pet. It is also good to delay casting FF when your pet has plenty of focus and is attacking at its maximum rate with a lot of WH uptime, this includes cases when the hunter is hasted and/or is high on focus and is casting more shots that can result in more GftT procs.

Last edited by Whitefyst : 09/18/12 at 11:27 AM.

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Old 09/18/12, 11:34 AM   #19
Namarus
Don Flamenco
 
Orc Hunter
 
Demon Soul
The only info I could find was.

Challenge Mode Gear Scaling - MMO-Champion BlueTracker

The system that will be used for challenge modes upon release actually preserves your hit and expertise bonuses, compensating by deducting extra rating from your other secondary stats (crit, haste, mastery, Spirit) in proportion to how much of each you had to begin with.

This sounds complicated, but it should be relatively seamless and handled behind the scenes, with the intent being to minimize the need to reforge/regem for challenge modes.

To use some decidedly fake numbers, let's say I have an average ilvl of 500 and I have the following stats:

Outdoors (Item Level 500)
3400 Hit Rating (+10%)
3400 Expertise (+10%)
6000 Crit (+10%)
0 Mastery (+0%)
8500 Haste (+20%)

When I enter a challenge dungeon, my ilvl scales down to 463, reducing my stats by roughly 30% (rounding for the sake of simplicity). However, the system keeps my Hit and Expertise values unchanged, overcompensating by reducing the other ratings more heavily.

So my challenge mode stats would be:

In Challenge Mode (Item Level 463)
3400 Hit Rating (+10%)
3400 Expertise (+10%)
3356 Crit (+5.6%)
0 Mastery (+0%)
4754 Haste (+11.2%)

(Now yes, if your normal gearset is designed to hit-cap you against raid bosses, you'll effectively be slightly over the hit cap against dungeon targets, so people looking to min/max completely may still have some tinkering to do, but unless you're aiming to beat the realm-best time, the cost of being a couple percent over the hit cap is going to pale in comparison to the benefit of precise and coordinated play.)

Tl;dr version: If you are hit-capped before you enter a challenge mode, you'll still be hit-capped inside. It's magic.
I did read somewhere that set bonuses won't apply, but I have found any blue confirmation.

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Old 09/18/12, 11:41 AM   #20
Stangg
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
I did read somewhere that set bonuses won't apply, but I have found any blue confirmation.
Confirmation on set bonuses being disabled was answered in a tweet:

Originally Posted by http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2928-Zone-Previews-Blue-Tweets-MoP-Design-Interview-Curse-Weekly-Roundup

Do you expect players to be able to jump into challenge modes in blues? or will set-bonuses make that non-viable?
Challenge modes are harder than level 90 heroic dungeons and we don't scale gear upwards. Set bonuses also are disabled.

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Old 09/18/12, 12:05 PM   #21
Nooska
King Hippo
 
Nooska's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
On FF at the very bottom, just above CoS is a confirm. The reason you see longer than expected between basic attacks is focus starvation on the pets part - while it feels weird (looking back) it actually helps make haste not as bad as it was in cata through bot increasing passive and active focus regeneration via GftT and Invigoration - Crit is still leaps and bounds better for focusregen for the pet due to GftT.

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Old 09/19/12, 1:18 AM   #22
Shasd
Glass Joe
 
Troll Hunter
 
Burning Blade
I was playing with the reforging on the Max DPS for BM. I came up with this after attempting to get it as close to the 3933 haste breakpoint as I could.

BM DPS

Dps:

Combined: 110862.22 100.00%
Hunter: 64939.05 58.58%
Pet: 42961.29 38.75%
Stampede: 2961.88 2.67%

Changes:

Gear:

Belt: Fetters of Death - Heroic > Ranger's Chain of Unending Summer - Heroic
Blue Socket: 160 Agi
Belt Buckle: 160 Agi
Reforge: 244 Exp > Hit

Feet:
Yellow socket: 80 Agi & 160 Haste (Changed from 80 Agi & 160 Crit)

Reforging:

Helm: 302 Exp > Crit (Changed from mastery > crit)
Shoulders: 261 Exp > Haste (No reforge)
Cloak: 205 Mastery > Exp (Changed from no reforge)
Chest: 320 Mastery > Haste (Changed from no reforge)
Bracers: 205 Mastery > Crit (Changed from hit > crit)
Feet: 254 Crit > Expertise ( Changed from haste > expertise)
Ranged: 379 Mastery > Crit (Changed from haste > crit)

This came to an overall increase of 834.06 DPS. I'm fairly sure this is as high as I could get it.

Last edited by Shasd : 09/19/12 at 4:22 AM. Reason: Got it higher

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Old 09/22/12, 8:40 PM   #23
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Looks like the FD fix concerning when the Aimed Shot focus cost is deducted had the secondary affect of resulting in a Troll now being top DPS for MMs instead of Orcs by about a whopping 92 DPS. Pandarens are close to Orcs as well with only being 7 DPS behind. Note though that with FD modeling the Troll and Pandaren racials well but only averaging out the benefit of Blood Fury that I believe that Orc is still the actual superior race for MMs.

I have updated the MM Max DPS case to reflect this.

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Old 10/16/12, 8:59 AM   #24
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
I updated the numbers for each case in the original post. Recent changes in FD have resulted in increased DPS for all 3 specs. BM saw the largest increases, broadening its gaps over the other specs. The change to Aimed Shot damage helped to increase MM DPS more than SV's.

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Old 10/16/12, 10:41 AM   #25
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
I updated the MM numbers in the OP. The recent change to AI damage has made it so that it is no longer beneficial to cast GT during the CA phase when you have a T14H weapon. Hence, in both cases I checked the "Disable Glaive Toss while Careful Aim is active
" option. This is an increase of 121 DPS in the racial neutral case and 602 DPS in the Max DPS case.

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Old 10/18/12, 7:15 AM   #26
Spexarn
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Ravencrest (EU)
I'm getting theese stat weights for Survival fully raidbuffed ilvl 472....

Agility=3.5 HitRating=1.397, ExpertiseRating=1.01, MasteryRating=0.923, CritRating=0.036, HasteRating=0.778, Ap=1.392, Rap=1.392, Could someone explain to me whats gone wrong? I can dig that haste could be valued more at times depending on plateu, but .932 mastery vs crit (uber) at .036........ ?

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Old 10/18/12, 11:51 AM   #27
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Spexarn View Post
I'm getting theese stat weights for Survival fully raidbuffed ilvl 472....

Agility=3.5 HitRating=1.397, ExpertiseRating=1.01, MasteryRating=0.923, CritRating=0.036, HasteRating=0.778, Ap=1.392, Rap=1.392, Could someone explain to me whats gone wrong? I can dig that haste could be valued more at times depending on plateu, but .932 mastery vs crit (uber) at .036........ ?
Is that a BM spec simulation? There are some abilities which proc off crit in BM which are supported directly in the simulation which can create distortions in stat value for crit as well.

Update: Missed the word survival. Can you give me a saved setting link so I can see if I can tell what's going on?

Last edited by Rivkah : 10/19/12 at 12:52 PM.

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Old 11/02/12, 12:55 PM   #28
Tsoni
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Outland (EU)
Something is not right with Pandas and food buff. Going from 275 agility buff to 300 one shows a damage loss for about 20 DPS.
For any other race seems ok.

If it helps, this character along with Spirit Beast was imported when I noticed mentioned bug.

EDIT; However, I can't "recreate" the same bug. It might be an error on my end after all.

Last edited by Tsoni : 11/02/12 at 1:11 PM.

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Old 11/12/12, 3:54 AM   #29
Butu
Glass Joe
 
Troll Hunter
 
Spinebreaker (EU)
Seems like the numbers for BM are a little off in the OP, probably because of changes in the sim. Using the links in the OP, I get these numbers:
BM Neutral DPS 109088 -> 109412, a gain of 324 DPS.
BM Max DPS 113714 -> 114053, a gain of 339 DPS.

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Old 11/12/12, 6:19 PM   #30
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
I updated the BM numbers.

I also checked some of the previous changes that people had provided me and which I had not had the time to act upon yet. All of these seem to be overcome by events. In private messages to me, please indicate what exactly you have changed instead of just sending me a link to your settings.

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