ok so i havent had wow for a few days, dont even ask..., and ive been doing alot of therory crafting. Atm i have a 2.03 cast time using the badge xbow and the 27 haste rating. When i herd about the 3:2 macro i kinda blindly started using it, but i did test it. my question is that is there a point when a 1:1 is better? im planing on stacking haste to a point, and im wondering if at a certian point if 1:1 or even 1:1.5 is beter than 3:2 thanks.
EDIT: another quick question reguarding QS proc. Should i switch to a 1:1 for this? it will put me down to 1.73 i think when active.
Last edited by Acearan : 05/03/08 at 4:00 AM.
"Druids, they are so stupid they can tank better than warriors, out damage rogues, and nuke as well as mages. On top of that they can turn into a mutated seal."
IMO, I would use the 3:2 macro. Calling it 3:2 is talking more about the specific rotation than what you can use the macro for. It performs well under haste and you can easily use it to "manually" time your steadies when unhasted.
Its kinda wierd because i do 3 or even 4 stedies in a row instead of 2. Maybe its better to use my old [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] till my 3.0 bow will drop?
Just did some tests with the [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] on Dr.Boom and my rotation is ok with this bow. So it looks like if i want to use new x-bow i need some haste to make my SS fit properly.
You shouldn't be using the 3:2 rotation for anything over 2.10 attack speed. Your results in shot ratio as well as consistency in shot rotation will vary wildly, depending on your latency. No small wonder that you were getting a 27 Auto 73 Steady percent ratio of shots, your attack speed is far, far too low (because you are survival).
Just a quickie here. Skimmed through the first 10 or so pages and the last 5 and didn't see it pop up, but do you guys use any addons to "see" when your autoshot has fired? It's a real pain in the arse actually "watching" for it.
Didn't see if this question was answered, but Quartz has an excellent auto shot timer bar, makes viewing shot rotation/clipping very easy.
Unfortunately, some of the hunter rotation naming conventions do not follow basic maths. A 3:2 rotation does not equal a 1.5:1 rotation. I justed want to clear it up for anyone reading that might be a little confused still.
3:2 is the typical name given for a rotation looking like this:
Steady, Steady, Auto, Steady, Auto, repeat.
3 steady shots and 2 autoshots per rotation. This is often achieved using a macro along the lines of /cast autoshot /cast steadyshot while being BM specced. Extra haste procs with that macro can take you down to a 1:1 rotation (Lust, Rapid Fire, Haste Pots, etc).
The "actual" shot rotation achieved by my macro is as follows:
Auto, Steady, Steady, Auto, Steady
This is repeated exactly in this order. The macro does not start with a steady shot, it starts with an auto shot. A typical BM with 2.10 attack speed fires a Steady shot in 1.09 seconds, meaning the second auto shot is theoretically pushed back by 0.08 seconds + latency. However, in "actual" practice while firing the shot rotation, often times you will see the second steady shot and the second auto shot fire almost simultaneously (despite the fact that auto shot is supposed to have a 0.5 second cast time. An increase in passive haste both shortens the auto shot attack speed, while also decreasing steady shot cast time. This "tightening" of the rotation typically reaches the limit of the 3:2 shot ratio when attack speed hits 1.90, automatically scaling down to a 1:1 ratio, generally. This breakpoint can vary with latency.
Bind KC to an easily pressed button. Mine was shift-3 when BM (my steadyshot is shift-2 for reference). Manually perform KC's.
Get a Ravager.
PS: Why is it that you need to do 1:1? I was under the impression that the /cast/cast will perform a 1:1 when appropriate. The GCD/autoshot clip cutoff from 3:2 to 1:1 is always worth the extra streadyshot until it did in fact drop to 1:1.
Regarding /cast/cast switching to 1:1 automatically when appropriate, this does not appear to be the case for me currently - if I'm using a 3.0 bristleblitz it has me in 3:2 unhasted, 1:1 hasted, which is indeed maximal DPS. However using a 2.8 speed weapon, it stays at 3:2 when unhasted, which according to the spreadsheet is inferior DPS for the unhasted period.
According to the spreadsheet v46, which is set up as accurately as I've ever set it up, using 1:1 while unhasted is ~10 dps higher for me than using a 3:2 when unhasted (both setups have me in 1:1 when hasted with quickshots and/or DST). This is using the badge xbow, felspine, and cloak of fiends. I've been over it several times, so I don't think I've set anything up wrong (my current armoury should be raid gear, except swap the black bow with the crit scope out for the xbow with an accurascope - netting around 1.9ish passive attackspeed).
Originally Posted by Puppyeater
@ alien angel
IMO, I would use the 3:2 macro. Calling it 3:2 is talking more about the specific rotation than what you can use the macro for. It performs well under haste and you can easily use it to "manually" time your steadies when unhasted.
This is what I was doing last night actually - manual 1:1 when unhasted, and 1:1 via the "3:2" /cast/cast macro when hasted with drums/QS/RF/DST/Heroism. I was using a Ravager since I still haven't found a satisfactory way to use Lightning Breath.
I can't look at WWS for results since uploads still don't seem to be working on their site, but TPS seemed higher than ever. When things get too hectic, I can still keep mashing the 3:2 macro when unhasted and only lose 10 dps.
My mistake then, alienangel. Being Survival now (and before the 2.8 badge bow came into play), I never really had to go into that in much detail.
Originally Posted by Manito
The "actual" shot rotation achieved by my macro is as follows:
Auto, Steady, Steady, Auto, Steady
This is repeated exactly in this order. The macro does not start with a steady shot, it starts with an auto shot.
I was simply trying to explain the concept to someone, and listing the steadyshots first coincides with its common name, 3(steadies):2(autos). It's indefinite after all. A rotation, not a list.
Now that I think about it, I thought it fired steadyshot first anyway. Considering the first press turns autoshot on and casts steadyshot at the exact same time, I cant see how an autoshot could possibly go out first. Not that it matters though, who starts their dps from standing still not shooting then right into the macro? It usually starts with a Misdirect or a few autoshots, Hunters Mark, Scorpid, etc. first.
Now that I think about it, I thought it fired steadyshot first anyway. Considering the first press turns autoshot on and casts steadyshot at the exact same time, I cant see how an autoshot could possibly go out first. Not that it matters though, who starts their dps from standing still not shooting then right into the macro? It usually starts with a Misdirect or a few autoshots, Hunters Mark, Scorpid, etc. first.
It does start with an autoshot, but not always. So sometimes it shoots the steadyshot first and sometimes there is an autoshot before it.
Not that I'm starting with the macro.. I just know it because someone said that the difference between the macro and normal-steady is that it starts with an autoshot.
My bow speed with passive haste effects is 1.88. If haste didn't affect steady shot the fastest I could cast would be:
0.0 Start Steady
1.5 finish Steady
2.0 finish Auto (0.5s delay after steady)
Because haste DOES affect steady it's something more like:
0.0 start steady
1.1 finish steady
1.88 finish auto (can't fire faster than autoshot timer)
That definitely improves my shot rotation. (In practice I end up with about a 1.92 shot rotation due to latency, but that's still faster than the 2.0 I'd have if steady shot didn't get affected by haste)
Another thing:
KC doesn't trigger global cooldown but Autoshot can't happen within 0.5s after a KC (it interrupts the 0.5s autoshot cast)
So the autoshot timer in your beastmaster example would be a bit longer (depending on latency, dead time, etc) when you use KC than when you don't.
So autoshot has an invisible 0.5s castbar... where is that attached? I mean, is the .5s just before the start of the next autoshot? Does it delay the end of the autoshot? I'm a bit puzzled by the mechanics your describing.
Which of these matches the game mechanics, going on the assumption that the shot flies (and damage is applied) at the end of the top bar.
So autoshot has an invisible 0.5s castbar... where is that attached? I mean, is the .5s just before the start of the next autoshot? Does it delay the end of the autoshot? I'm a bit puzzled by the mechanics your describing.
Which of these matches the game mechanics, going on the assumption that the shot flies (and damage is applied) at the end of the top bar.
The last one. Autoshot is "casted" at the end of its "cooldown". (cooldown=attackspeed - 0.5 seconds)
(hope that's a picture, everyone can understand ^^)
Regarding /cast/cast switching to 1:1 automatically when appropriate, this does not appear to be the case for me currently - if I'm using a 3.0 bristleblitz it has me in 3:2 unhasted, 1:1 hasted, which is indeed maximal DPS. However using a 2.8 speed weapon, it stays at 3:2 when unhasted, which according to the spreadsheet is inferior DPS for the unhasted period.
According to the spreadsheet v46, which is set up as accurately as I've ever set it up, using 1:1 while unhasted is ~10 dps higher for me than using a 3:2 when unhasted (both setups have me in 1:1 when hasted with quickshots and/or DST). This is using the badge xbow, felspine, and cloak of fiends. I've been over it several times, so I don't think I've set anything up wrong (my current armoury should be raid gear, except swap the black bow with the crit scope out for the xbow with an accurascope - netting around 1.9ish passive attackspeed).
Revisiting this, hopefully my talking to myself like this isn't boring everyone, but I think it's relevant to the thread:
It turns out my perhaps unusual situation was largely due to the high latency I've had the past week or so, due to a wireless connection at the apartment I just moved to - at 200-300ms, the 1:1 rotation was giving me higher spreadsheet dps when unhasted. Now that I'm back to a wired connection with a stable 70ms, I get the standard result of a 3:2 unhasted, 1:1 hasted rotation being higher in the spreadsheet. I'm not sure why latency would have that dramatic an effect on the unhasted rotation for the badge Xbow :S
Anyway, this means I can go back to using a spam macro to cast my LBs for me - my current project is learning to keep spamming that button even when I'm not personally DPS but my pet is, to ensure it's always LBing - I may end up setting up a G15 macro that does nothing other than spam LB until toggled off.
b) ppl arguing either 3:2 or 1:1 is best for bm, but it depends on the range attack speed right? So may i know what is
the range speed i should spam 1:1 instead of 3:2 to max my dps?
c) there are so many types of 1:1 and 3:2 macro which confuse me @@......Can someone show me the best macro for
both of these rotation?
I am a bit confused, I've read in the Beast master Bible thread that to get a 1:1 rotation a 1.90 attack speed is needed. Is this the optimal attack speed I should be aiming for? With procs like RF/QS/Drumsx2(normally)/Herosim/Haste pots I am well below for the majority of the fight.
I know that this will just give me a quicker 1:1 rotation, cause my recount shows I'm at a near perfect ratio of steadys and autos. Since there is alot of haste gear out there, should I aim for the 1.90 natural attack speed and then scale up my crit/Ap?
My other question is what attack speed is too fast? where GCD's become a factor
I am a bit confused, I've read in the Beast master Bible thread that to get a 1:1 rotation a 1.90 attack speed is needed. Is this the optimal attack speed I should be aiming for? With procs like RF/QS/Drumsx2(normally)/Herosim/Haste pots I am well below for the majority of the fight.
I know that this will just give me a quicker 1:1 rotation, cause my recount shows I'm at a near perfect ratio of steadys and autos. Since there is alot of haste gear out there, should I aim for the 1.90 natural attack speed and then scale up my crit/Ap?
My other question is what attack speed is too fast? where GCD's become a factor
As far as I know, BM hunters dont have to concern themselves with the global cooldown. Auto shot has a hidden .5 cast timer, and steady has a 1.5 sec cast time, and neither engage the cooldown. So I'm guessing once you're down to .5 weapon speed, you'll be doing just autoshots (and probably close to 4000 dps).
hy people
I have a question I am on look for a new macro for my hunter Im BM specct with the Archiebow (3,00 speed) altogether i come with BM spec on 2,17 speed! which routation/macro would be there te best for max dps?
hy people
I have a question I am on look for a new macro for my hunter Im BM specct with the Archiebow (3,00 speed) altogether i come with BM spec on 2,17 speed! which routation/macro would be there te best for max dps?
I´ve read this thread and i dont really know whats going on D;!
would be nice for a answer !
The macro you are currently using is a 1:1 castsequence with in-line Kill Command. Your best option would be to stack a little haste so you are down below 2.10 attack speed, and use the macro in my signature.
I've done some some experiments on Haste and shot rotations using Cheeky's spread sheet as a bases.
For my calculations I assumed the following to be true of hunter shot rotations:
3:2 (steadys only)
1.5:1 (Multi/Arcane/steady MM rotation)
1:1 (steady only)
1:2 (steady shot only)
I picked two gear sets to look at: A "best in slot" haste set with 297 haste rating with 4 piece T6, and a "best in slot" non haste slot with 54 haste rating (Blackened Naaru Sliver is just insanely good, i have it as roughly 118ap averaged out over the internal cool down).
In Cheeky's spread sheet i used the following conditions and settings: Full raid buffs (sadly, I wasn't thinking and just used my typicall raid buffs I get instead of setting the raid buffs to either none or full), Shot Rotation and Quick Shot Rotation were set to be the same per which ever shot rotation I was running varying haste buffs for. Latency in Cheeky's sheet was set to 0.05 seconds (my typical ping).
For each set i used the following haste increasing buffs and all the various combinations of such assuming a BM (20% haste) and a top level quiver (15% haste). To apply the haste buffs I calculated the total haste effect and figured out what the equivalent haste rating minus any haste from gear that would need to be added in the "hand adjustment" section on Cheeky's spread sheet that would yeild the same total haste effect.
Drums of Battle (80 haste rating)
Haste Potion (400 haste rating)
Heroism/Bloodlust (30% haste)
Rapid Fire (45% haste)
My results for the non haste set of gear:
Originally Posted by Praxx
Table 1
buffs
talents
quiver
haste %
speed of Auto
3v2
1.5v1
1v1
1v2
0
1.2
1.15
1.427464968
2.10
2471.12
2488.81
2332.87
1843.5
80.0
1.2
1.15
1.497783439
2.00
2499.61
2502.87
2420.94
1912.84
400.0
1.2
1.15
1.779057325
1.69
2517.78
2534.71
2757.57
2216.47
480.0
1.2
1.15
1.849375796
1.62
2520.62
2540.34
2797.89
2284.98
487.2
1.2
1.15
1.855704459
1.62
2520.86
2540.82
2801.42
2290.78
591.2
1.2
1.15
1.947118471
1.54
2524.23
2547.07
2853.72
2376.88
730.8
1.2
1.15
2.069824204
1.45
2527
2550.47
2872.06
2504.59
846.8
1.2
1.15
2.171785987
1.38
2528.28
2553.02
2873.89
2601.09
1007.2
1.2
1.15
2.312774522
1.30
2529.87
2556.2
2876.16
2747.64
1111.2
1.2
1.15
2.404188535
1.25
2530.8
2558.07
2877.49
2842.09
1310.8
1.2
1.15
2.579633121
1.16
2532.4
2561.27
2879.78
3013.55
1426.8
1.2
1.15
2.681594904
1.12
2533.23
2562.95
2880.97
3105.72
1437.2
1.2
1.15
2.690771465
1.11
2533.31
2563.1
2881.08
3113.18
1588.0
1.2
1.15
2.823321783
1.06
2534.3
2565.1
2882.5
3218.05
2191.2
1.2
1.15
3.353523057
0.89
2537.48
2571.52
2887.06
3597.87
2342.0
1.2
1.15
3.486073376
0.86
2538.12
2572.83
2887.98
3681.17
due to the large gaps in the Auto Shot times I graphed the Speed of Auto Shots versus the expected dps I obtained from Cheeky's spread sheet.
By using Line fitting it is possible to determine where dropping down a rotation will cause an increase in dps. For this gear set I found the following relation:
rotation vs Auto Shot times
3:2 > 1.9s using a 3:2 rotation or a 1.5:1 rotation is optimal for auto shot times greater then 1.9s
1.9s >= 1:1 > 1.2s dropping down to a 1:1 rotation is optimal for auto shot times of 1.9s or less but greater then 1.2s
1.2s <= 1:2 dropping further down to a 1:2 rotation is optimal for auto shot times of 1.2s or less
Results for the Haste gear set:
Originally Posted by Praxx
Table 2
buffs
talents
quiver
haste %
speed of Auto
3v2
1.5v1
1v1
1v2
0
1.2
1.15
1.641057325
1.83
2235.36
2318.55
2334.1
1842.15
80.0
1.2
1.15
1.711375796
1.75
2239.56
2325.68
2411.5
1902.56
400.0
1.2
1.15
1.992649682
1.51
2250.38
2350.48
2553.92
2161.66
480.0
1.2
1.15
2.062968153
1.45
2251.48
2353.57
2555.18
2227.35
560.1
1.2
1.15
2.133374522
1.41
2252.38
2356.46
2556.37
2287.93
664.1
1.2
1.15
2.224788535
1.35
2253.48
2359.95
2557.8
2369.78
840.2
1.2
1.15
2.379533121
1.26
2255.14
2365.28
2559.97
2501.1
956.2
1.2
1.15
2.481494904
1.21
2256.13
2368.44
2561.25
2591.41
1080.1
1.2
1.15
2.590444586
1.16
2257.09
2371.56
2562.52
2684.97
1184.1
1.2
1.15
2.681858599
1.12
2257.84
2373.99
2563.5
2755.51
1420.2
1.2
1.15
2.889342038
1.04
2259.38
2378.94
2565.5
2894.3
1536.2
1.2
1.15
2.991303822
1.00
2260.05
2381.13
2566.38
2964.79
1652.3
1.2
1.15
3.093393057
0.97
2260.68
2383.19
2567.21
3026.12
1803.1
1.2
1.15
3.225943376
0.93
2261.44
2385.67
2568.21
3100.98
2406.3
1.2
1.15
3.75614465
0.80
2263.96
2393.88
2571.49
3395.98
2557.1
1.2
1.15
3.888694968
0.77
2264.48
2395.6
2572.18
3444.1
Graphing the results yeilds:
using line fitting and extending the lines some to find the 3:2 to 1:1 switching point yeilds vertually identical results for when to drop down a rotation.
Conculsion: The ideal times to drop down a rotation for a low ping connection player are 1.9 and 1.2 seconds. Ping can and does play a HUGE factor in which rotation will generate the best dps and can significantly change the "ideal" times to drop a rotation down (Ping and its effect on haste and rotation selection is going to have to wait for another day).
Regards,
Ravenfire
P.S. (I never seem to get tables to paste right....)
EDIT: Thanks Praxx for showing me how to post tables correctly
Recap of what i have read in the last 6 pages....Re: BM and Only BM.
Now assuming you have access to multiple bows, haste gear and flexibilty in your gear that you can reach from 2.15-1.89 second shots what is the ideal plan.
----If 3:2 is the ideal plan is it better to limit the haste procs on fights? or just have the 1:1 rotation ready to spam instead?
----is it 2.0 or 2.1 thats the speed wanted for 3:2 because i am reading multiple answers, with a low latency at about 45mb?
Or
----Is 1:1 the ideal speed if you are capable of hitting 1.9 speed? again with a low latency at about 45mb?
----is there a different rotation to optimize dps at a certain speed when there are haste procs? other than 1:1 using a normal 1:1 or 3:2?
And what is the suggested macro while in the process of stacking said Haste?
Haste (or rather, enough to get below 2.1) is pretty hard to come by south of T5.
Also, not sure how to identify a particular bar slot if I'm using a mod or want to put the KC macro someplace else for some reason. Any ideas?
Thanks,
--Seo
just remembered about this post.
Getting the new 2h and the new badge bow alone will bring you down to about 1.96s speed so theres no difference if you are a KZ guild or a SWP guild. theres also some craftable haste patterns if you really wanna be productive.
I've done some some experiments on Haste and shot rotations using Cheeky's spread sheet as a bases.
For my calculations I assumed the following to be true of hunter shot rotations:
3:2 (steadys only)
1.5:1 (Multi/Arcane/steady MM rotation)
1:1 (steady only)
1:2 (steady shot only)
I picked two gear sets to look at: A "best in slot" haste set with 297 haste rating with 4 piece T6, and a "best in slot" non haste slot with 54 haste rating (Blackened Naaru Sliver is just insanely good, i have it as roughly 118ap averaged out over the internal cool down).
In Cheeky's spread sheet i used the following conditions and settings: Full raid buffs (sadly, I wasn't thinking and just used my typicall raid buffs I get instead of setting the raid buffs to either none or full), Shot Rotation and Quick Shot Rotation were set to be the same per which ever shot rotation I was running varying haste buffs for. Latency in Cheeky's sheet was set to 0.05 seconds (my typical ping).
For each set i used the following haste increasing buffs and all the various combinations of such assuming a BM (20% haste) and a top level quiver (15% haste). To apply the haste buffs I calculated the total haste effect and figured out what the equivalent haste rating minus any haste from gear that would need to be added in the "hand adjustment" section on Cheeky's spread sheet that would yeild the same total haste effect.
Drums of Battle (80 haste rating)
Haste Potion (400 haste rating)
Heroism/Bloodlust (30% haste)
Rapid Fire (45% haste)
due to the large gaps in the Auto Shot times I graphed the Speed of Auto Shots versus the expected dps I obtained from Cheeky's spread sheet.
By using Line fitting it is possible to determine where dropping down a rotation will cause an increase in dps. For this gear set I found the following relation:
rotation vs Auto Shot times
3:2 > 1.9s using a 3:2 rotation or a 1.5:1 rotation is optimal for auto shot times greater then 1.9s
1.9s >= 1:1 > 1.2s dropping down to a 1:1 rotation is optimal for auto shot times of 1.9s or less but greater then 1.2s
1.2s <= 1:2 dropping further down to a 1:2 rotation is optimal for auto shot times of 1.2s or less
using line fitting and extending the lines some to find the 3:2 to 1:1 switching point yeilds vertually identical results for when to drop down a rotation.
Conculsion: The ideal times to drop down a rotation for a low ping connection player are 1.9 and 1.2 seconds. Ping can and does play a HUGE factor in which rotation will generate the best dps and can significantly change the "ideal" times to drop a rotation down (Ping and its effect on haste and rotation selection is going to have to wait for another day).
Regards,
Ravenfire
P.S. (I never seem to get tables to paste right....)
If I am reading this correctly, right now I have a bow auto shot speed of 1.9 S. So instead of using my /cast /cast macro I should use my /castsequence macro instead? I thought that once u got to a certain point the /cast /cast turned into the /castsequence or am I wrong?
Recap of what i have read in the last 6 pages....Re: BM and Only BM.
Now assuming you have access to multiple bows, haste gear and flexibilty in your gear that you can reach from 2.15-1.89 second shots what is the ideal plan.
----If 3:2 is the ideal plan is it better to limit the haste procs on fights? or just have the 1:1 rotation ready to spam instead?
----is it 2.0 or 2.1 thats the speed wanted for 3:2 because i am reading multiple answers, with a low latency at about 45mb?
Or
----Is 1:1 the ideal speed if you are capable of hitting 1.9 speed? again with a low latency at about 45mb?
----is there a different rotation to optimize dps at a certain speed when there are haste procs? other than 1:1 using a normal 1:1 or 3:2?
3:2 is the ideal if you are using a 2.9 base speed or slower weapon. Haste procs, like quick shots, or haste casts like Rapid Fire or Dragonspine Trophy, should lower the attack speed enough to give you 1:1 while still using the same 3:2 macro. You shouldn't need a separate 1:1 macro rotation during hasted periods, 3:2 should drop down just fine to 1:1.
2.10 is the maximum speed that you can effectively use the 3:2 at, if you are at say, 2.17 (default attack speed for an unhasted 3.0 speed BM hunter), you will get closer to a 2:1 ratio (very bad).
If I am reading this correctly, right now I have a bow auto shot speed of 1.9 S. So instead of using my /cast /cast macro I should use my /castsequence macro instead? I thought that once u got to a certain point the /cast /cast turned into the /castsequence or am I wrong?
Your half right... I was trying to make it so anyone could read and understand what my results implied; in this case the spammer, the macroer, and the hand-weaver. IF your using the 3:2 macro then your gonna be fine for auto shot times greater then 1.2 seconds. I'd suggest you make a 1:2 macro for those rare times when your breaking the sound barrier and have an auto shot time of 1.2 or less, other then that you should be fine.
05/03/08, 2:17 AM
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