well in my case Dragonspine and bloodlust gives highest on spreadsheet, the leo trinket is prolly better if your SUV, but im BM aswell, you can check my gear on the link, but you didn't specify a link and i couldn't find you on armory so i cant realy give you any real info.

hi there
like many ppl here this is my first post and the thread(and the pages linked to) already helped me very much, especially now using macros which boosted my dps since im always having ~200ms ping.

i really like that you people here explain everything and dont just say "its like that because i read it there - no further comments"

before i read this thread i made my own calculations and experimentally achieved some data/coefficients. i saw some formulas for calculating the steady shot or arcane shot but due to lack of infos couldnt use them(furthermore i didnt trust them very much because it seems that many different formulas for the same topic(shot) exist).

therefore i wanted to determine the things myself and just observed the dmg difference when changing equip and activating trinkets.
the data i received was(everyone who isnt interested in the numbers can skip the next passage):
autoshot(avgdmg per shot, 0enemyarmor):
739 --+52AP--> 750
737 --+64AP--> 750
750 --+200AP-> 791
447 --+52AP--> 458
447 --+64AP--> 460
458 --+200AP-> 499

what confuses me a little bit, is that both fully eqipped and naked the +52AP, +64AP and +200AP give +11, +13 respectively +41dmg/shot. i thought(i have read) autoshot has no linear coherence with ap.
but nevertheless is get 0,212, 0,203 respectively 0,205 what gives avg 0,207 dmg per point ap.

steadyshot(dmg/shot, 0enemyarmor):
711 --+52AP--> 727
727 --+200AP-> 787
296 --+52AP--> 311
311 --+200AP-> 371

quite consistent, gives 0,3 dmg/point ap

so i want to know whats good/whats bad on my calculus so far(the rest is just mathematical equivalence). i read that the steadyshot tooltip is wrong what of course destroys everything for the steadyshot. but i think its a very tough thing to say the tooltip is just wrong. any link where i can comprehend this would be great :>

with the formula also posted earlier this thread it just changes the dmg/ap coefficient to 0,2 if i think the right way.

if i use my coefficients i get the following formulas of which i also would like to know if they(or the thoughts behind them) are correct:
1:1 shotrotation => (dmg_auto + dmg_steady)/time_neededuntilrestart = dps
so if i raise the ap i get(windfury bow atm & bm spec => 2,1s): Δdps = (Δdmg_auto + Δdmg_steady)/2,1 = (ΔAP*0,207 + ΔAP*0,3)/2,1 = ΔAP*0,51/2,1

another formula i want to know if its right: Δdps = Δcritrate*1,3*dps_atm
with 40agi = 1% critchane and 22critrating = 1% critchance (whats very important for me as drdamage is for one or two weeks suddenly calculating as if 26critrating were 1% critchance(i update my aceaddons daily))

if the formulas are correct i get(calculating with 700dps):
8agi gem => Δdps = 3,76 dps
16ap gem => Δdps = 3,89 dps
8crit gem => Δdps = 3,33 dps
(but with survivalspec) 8agi gem => 9,2agi = 4,33dps

now you all say 8agi gem is the best, which means i have to have done a mistake. first candidate is i think the wrong or not steadyshot tooltip. but is anything else wrong? have i done anything right? =) calculating with 700dps is probably too high(since i read that good hunters do 1k dps including their scorpid) what lowers the efficiency of critgems, since their dpsgain is dependent on the actual dps.

using 0,2 instead of 0,3 for steadyshotap-coefficient i get:
16ap gem = 3,12dps
8agi gem = 3,38dps

and since the question was there about a little hitratingloss:
calculating with 700 dps, a loss of 8hitrating(0,42%) means 700*0,9958=697,06dps => loss of 2,94dps. and as i calculated above, every gem(+8agi, +8crit or +16ap) does more than 3dps => slight win for the dmg-gems.
but remember that other gems are going down as the dps do: from 89,58% to 90% some gems equal:
700*0,9=630dps, 630*0,8958=627,06dps => 8hit gives still 2,94dps, but the other gems(or just say crit) lose, because of the less dps: 8crit = 2,96dps. still more for the crit, but it demonstrates a little bit and surprisingly for myself it turns out to be a statement against hitrating

but i hope you (and i am sure you can) tell me if theres a mistake in it.


of course ill take a look at cheekys spreadsheet, but i just wanted to know how far my calculation is correct as im not the greatest fan of not understanding what in this spreadsheet happens and just getting out some results which i cant retrace.


so thats it for now, i thought i have some questions but i cant recall them atm :>


thanks in advance and sorry for some bad english or strange sentences partly built with a dictionary =)


€dit:
i just have one quick question: the thundering hellfirediamond is atm in the ah and im a jewelcrafter. so i am really interested if the gem is worth the cost/the gem restrictions.

You'll find that I include all steps in calculating values as clearly as I can. You should be able to reverse engineer the shot damage calculations very easily.

And please use capitalization in your posts.

I figured you'd be sick and tired of explaining this stuff, so I'll be just in for the spreadsheet. :>

Two questions still left. I'd be glad if someone could tell me how good the Thundering Skyfire Diamond is.
Another problem/issue for me is that since i use a macro i hear 2 annoying "ticking" sounds during the cast of the steadyshot. I figure it's the attempt to cast the new cycle, but this doesn't help me to abide these annoying sounds. Does anyone know any how to solve this problem? Maybe silencing some soundfiles or something like this?

Again thanks in advance.

Adding x RAP will, on Auto Shots pre-armor, crits, damage modifiers, etc, give you (x/14)*WeaponSpeed more damage per shot.

It's pretty easy to test for yourself.

First, check with your current bow (Sunfury), shoot for a while.
Observe that the damage isn't constant, even on the same mob. This proves there is a damage range for Steady Shot, which would not have been there if the tooltip was correct.

Next, equip a low level bow, e.g. bought from vendors. Keep your other gear the same.
Shoot the same mob you did in the previous test.
Observe that your damage is now much lower. This proves Weapon Damage is a factor in Steady Shot's actual damage range, again, not as the tooltip states.

Next, on a critter (these have very little armor mitigation, making them good test subjects), shoot for a while, note down average damage. I suggest not having pet active here (so you don't have Focused Fire buff active).
Change your RAP by a high amount, noting how much you remove/add.
Find more critters, repeat the shooting. Note the average damage.
Compare the two, and see how much damage was gained/lost from your RAP change. With adequate testing, you'll get a number very close to 0.2.
In beta, I spent hours doing this, with varying weapons. After taking armor mitigation into account, the following formula was the result:
SteadyShotDamage = DamagePercentageBonus*RWS*(150 + (WeaponDamage/WeaponSpeed)*2.8 + 0.2*RAP + [Dazed: 175])

This is the formula you can see on e.g. WoWWiki (of course, I'm not credited). This, I believe, is the first time someone reverse-engineered it. Almost every other site I've seen it on have it exactly the same way as I posted it the first time (I recently added a couple of parenthesis to avoid some confusion). Many others have later tested and the above formula matches every result I've ever seen.

Other than that, looking over the math pages on Cheeky's spreadsheet should prove beneficial to you.

I have a mod question for one of our core abilities: Feign Death

As you know if your a hunter when it get resisted you don't get a report in your combat log, the only place it shows up is those 3 lines of red error text in the middle of the screen.

My problem is that those lines are always spammed out with "can't do that yet" messages, so I almost always miss a FD resist. The feign death sound mod off of curse doesn't seem to work anymore, and ktm and omen cant properly tell when there is a resist.

Any have a way around this?

1. Apply it before it runs out to keep the extra attack power.

2. It's a display bug that is being fixed in 2.2, you get the full 2 minutes.

ok I'm a total newb.....Where the heck is my combat log and how do I read the "clipping" of shots once I get there?

As well I'm hoping to get wws going for my guild...sadly I see no directions to install it...and I mean installation from a nublets perspective.

It seems like Omen keeps track of Feign Death resists. I can't confirm this from a programming standpoint, but everytime I get a resist I look over and still see my name high up on the aggro table. Also, if you are getting the error messages spammed, there are ways to remove those with macro scripts to help keep the UI a little bit cleaner.

Ultimately, nothing will completely fix the issue since Feign Death is still quite buggy.

Your right, sometimes when FD resists omen does catch it, but there are times when Ill FD and wont think it resists because the threat fell off omen, only to pull 15s later.

I think I had heard of a mod that outputs that red error text to chat or filters it or some such, anyone know this mod, or just what that error text is officially referred to as?

Omen properly registers a resist for me vs single mobs like bosses.

I look for the following:

- Ratio of Auto:Special
- Average shot damages
- Time spent DPSing
- Buffs used
- Damage taken
- Raw DPS number
- Total numbers of shots
- Pet DPS, specials used
- Pet survival

Based on spec I have a general feeling of what those numbers should be for most bosses, based on that Hunter's role. Some are fuzzy (total numbers of shots, damage taken) and some are hard-and-fast (Shot ratio, Buffs.) You'd be surprised what you can learn about someone over 4-5 different logs.

I'll evaluate a BM Hunter completely differently than a Survival. (And ask a Marksman to re-spec, it's not viable for our gear level.)

I was wondering what a good armor value would be to plug in for evaluating different shot rotations for SSC bosses. I plan to make an extended visit to Dr. Boom this weekend to try different methods of increasing my dps, but thus far a steady/auto rotation looks the best.
Thoughts and concerns include:
Given Dr. Booms relatively weak status, would steady/auto vs. a 1:1 rotation replacing some steadies with arcane be fair to work out a rotation for SSC? I'm wondering if their higher armor would make interspersing arcane worth it.
I tried spamming a castsequence going something like auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady, auto, steady, auto... but seemed to result in lower dps. Would doing auto/steady and manually hitting the arcane between firing the end of a steady and the start of the next auto be any different?
If I go with a simple steady/auto rotation, would macroing in the use of something like a Unity Charm adversely delay the rotation?

I find 30-40% fairly accurate for my personal uses, which is in the neighborhood of 5-8k armor.

Hey hunters,

I don't play a hunter, but my girlfriend does. She has a [Don Santos' Famous Hunting Rifle] and a [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] and is BM specced and is wondering which is better. It seems to me that if Don's proc is up 33% of the time it ends up being a 79dps weapon while Wolfslayer is 82dps once you factor in its added AP and has a higher damage range, so wolfslayer seems far better, am I missing anything?

Also, would it be worth her picking up a [Barrel-Blade Longrifle]? The raw dps is higher of course, but it is slightly faster.

I would suggest downloading Cheeky's spreadsheet and checking with her gear there.

The proc affects more shots than the WeaponDPS does. Arcane Shot, for example, gains from the proc while being unaffected by WeaponDPS, so with Don Santos you should see higher average damage on this ability.
Whether the proc makes up for its lower DPS or not is dependent on the abilities you use, and what other gear you have (like haste procs, etc), latency, etc.
As far as I can remember, the weapon and its proc is modelled in the spreadsheet.

This is why I linked the spreadsheet, I should possibly have been a bit clearer in the original post.

I do believe, though, that if something can be solved without extreme amounts of work by using a spreadsheet, I will link to that spreadsheet.

As for the Barrel-Blade, again, it depends heavily on latency and reaction, which are variable between users. For example, this weapon would be too fast for me with the latency I currently have, but once I get stuff sorted and my latency drops, it will become much more viable.
It has potential to do a lot of damage if used in a perfect setting, but there are things to take into consideration which might severly impact it in a negative fashion.
Again, most of this is something that is included in the spreadsheet. When comparing the output from the spreadsheet to combat log parses, they match up very well, if you've input the correct settings.

I've been running tests myself, since I have both 2.7s guns. I have found in movement intensive fights (Void Reaver, Aran) the Wolfslayer is better, since you dilute the time of the Santos' Blessing effect. In stand still and DPS fights (Lurker, Prince, Magtheridon) The Don seems to be the superior weapon, but it's really very close. Both guns are just flat out amazing for BM 1:1 rotation. There is no wrong answer there.

And as Lactose said, the results you'll get are highly dependant upon your other gear, latency, shot rotation, buffs, etc. It's really difficult for any of the theorycrafters to say one is better than the other all the time, because it's just not true. If you get linked a spreadsheet, or get asked for a WWS log, realize we do it because there usually isn't a canned answer to your question.

I'm not a hunter, and I'm not overly familiar with their mechanics. I have read the shot rotation illustrated, so I understand the value of not clipping the autoshot. Beyond that, I'm sort of at a loss.

I can't help but think the hunters in my guild are underperforming, but I have no idea how to actually evaluate their performance. I have a feeling people are going to be watching their performance closesly, since one of them got a DST last night and their were probably some very dissapointed melee about it.

Here are the Gruul logs from the past 2 weeks:
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

Our hunters are getting very little group support as they are often in random groups. They pretty much never get totems, never get a shadow priest, and its iffy whether or not they get battle shout or any other support.

Any feedback as to what they are doing right, what they are doing wrong, or what the raid can do to support them better would be greatly appreciated. And if this isn't quite the right place to ask such general questions about specific individuals, I apologize.

Thankyou (and Cheeky), these two posts were exactly what I was after. However, should BM hunters even use Arc shot? My understanding was they pretty much only fired Auto and steady along with KC with instants only being used when having to move.

A Feign Death that is not resisted will always clear your threat on omen.
Unfortunately, you can have a feign death not be resisted and still not lose aggro.

This seems to happen when you try to do something immediately after a feign death.

To be safe, don't do anything for a global cooldown worth of time after fd.
This should make resists the only thing to worry about, and you can go back to fully trusting Omen.

Well, any DPS class is going to look bad if you give them no group synergy at all. Ask your Rogues to DPS in a healer group and see what kind of numbers they put up.

It seems like your Hunters (from the logs) know neither how to use a shot rotation nor manage a DPS pet in raids. Dynan in the first log has an extremely low DPS time (66%), I'd ask him what he was doing while the rest of you were trying to kill Gruul. He was better in the second log, but still low.

Your Hunters need to want to improve. And then they need to read some of the information here, at TKA Something - A World of Warcraft Hunter's Resource or another Hunter site. With their gearing they should both be able to scratch 800-900 DPS on Gruul. They should be some of your top DPSers. They need to spec for PvE, use a focus-dump DPS pet, and manage a real shot rotation. Other than that, they are fine.