Help me please - Page 11

Kolusius · 08/24/07, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by Pheroz

...Any feedback as to what they are doing right, what they are doing wrong, or what the raid can do to support them better would be greatly appreciated. And if this isn't quite the right place to ask such general questions about specific individuals, I apologize.

I dont have time to do a full analysis, but just glancing at the WWS, Dynan needs to stop using serpent sting and aimed shot. He's a marksmanship hunter, but his rotation seems to be completely random. If he wants to go with marksmanship, he needs to pick up a 1:1.5 rotation. His pet didn't really do much, now that they don't take shatter damage, its fairly easy to keep it alive and attacking the entire fight.

Travisscisse is a marks/survival hybrid, and should also be using a 1:1.5 rotation. His pet damage was also really low, and his pet didn't use any abilities?

(e) Beaten! Looking through the logs, there were times when both hunters sat there and pretty much just used autoshot for several shots in a row also. Towards the beginning of the fight when mana wasn't an issue as well.

Pheroz · 08/24/07, 1:39 PM

Can I get a clarification on what a 1:1.5 rotation is?

Also, what in your opinion is the ideal group set-up built around buffing 2 hunters dps?

And thanks for the quick feedback and the link to the TKA site.

Lactose · 08/24/07, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Darkrenown

Thankyou (and Cheeky), these two posts were exactly what I was after. However, should BM hunters even use Arc shot? My understanding was they pretty much only fired Auto and steady along with KC with instants only being used when having to move.

In general, both Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot does more damage on average than Steady Shot. Thus, using them instead of a Steady Shot will almost always increase damage dealt. Note that this is much more taxing on mana.

For BM Hunters, a nice of way of visualizing your shots is something like...
You fire Auto Shots at a certain speed. Sometimes, like if you have hastes proc, this speed changes. However, it's never random, so you know when to expect it (especially with a shot timer).
You have specials, all of which can be used between 2 Auto Shots (excepting Aimed Shot, but that one isn't good in terms of DPS).
After an Auto Shot fires, the best thing to fire (disregarding mana issues) is the shot that deals the most damage on average.

Set up a priority queue, example:
If Arcane Shot is ready, fire that.
If Multi-Shot is ready, fire that.
If neither of the above is ready, fire Steady Shot.

Then use that to determine which special to use between each Auto Shot.

Cheeky · 08/24/07, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Pheroz

Can I get a clarification on what a 1:1.5 rotation is?

Also, what in your opinion is the ideal group set-up built around buffing 2 hunters dps?

And thanks for the quick feedback and the link to the TKA site.

A 1:1.5 rotation means that you use Steady Shots between each pair of Auto Shots, and every other time you add in Multi/Scorpid/Arcane as well. So you get one and a half special shots (1 being Steady) for each Auto Shot.

Leader of the Pack is probably the best single group buff for a Hunter. It helps heal the pet and 5% crit for both pet and Hunter is really nice. If they have serious mana problems (and a well-played MM Hunter will) than a Shadow Priest is even better.

If you have extra Shaman after the Melee and Caster/Healer groups, one with GoA for the Druids, Hunters and pets (and the Shaman his/herself) is nice, but most guild don't have that luxury.

Pets and Hunters should be blessed by Paladins. Might is incredibly useful on pets, as is Kings (and Salvation for BM Hunters pets in fights like Void Reaver helps too.)

Kolusius · 08/24/07, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by Pheroz

Can I get a clarification on what a 1:1.5 rotation is?

Also, what in your opinion is the ideal group set-up built around buffing 2 hunters dps?

And thanks for the quick feedback and the link to the TKA site.

Basically 3 specials per 2 autoshots. The general template for a 1:1.5 rotation ends up being something like: auto, steady, multi, auto, steady, auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady.

I rarely get my ideal group, but if I were to pick one, it would probably be hunter, hunter, feral druid, shadow priest, shaman. Since neither of the hunters are beastmastery they really arent offering much to the group, TSA for the druid and shaman (if enhancement) I suppose. They do receive mana, LotP, and GoA with a setup like that though.

Grogzor · 08/24/07, 5:50 PM

Finally was able to get a copy of Excel and checked out Cheeky's Spreadsheet.
After Testing some stuff out I collected the following Data

Assumptions -

Spec 41/20/0 (Same as Mine)
All Attack Powers and Critical %'s are prior to raid buffs (except AotH) but all DPS's given include Improved BoM, BoK, Improved GotW, Ravager Dog, Flask of Relentless Assault.
Pet is considered buffed with Improved BoM, BoK and Improved GotW.
100% To Hit
Standard 1:1 Shot Rotation
Raptor Pet with Highest Ranks Bite and Growl along with Cobra Reflexes.

1500/15 = 1593.68

1550/15 = 1609.62
1500/15.5 = 1601.29
1525/15.25 = 1599.43

50 AP > .5 Crit
@ 1500 AP => 1 Crit = 50 AP
>50 AP = ΔDPS of 15.94
>.5 Crit = ΔDPS of 7.61

1600/15 = 1625.56
1650/15 = 1641.5
1600/15.5 = 1633.33
1625/15.25 = 1637.80

50 AP > .5 Crit
@ 1600 AP => 1 Crit = 50 AP
>50 AP = ΔDPS of 15.94
>.5 Crit = ΔDPS of 7.77

1700/15 = 1657.44
1750/15 = 1673.39
1700/15.5 = 1665.37
1725/15.25 = 1669.04

50 AP > 1 Crit
@ 1700 AP => 1 Crit = 50 AP
>50 AP = ΔDPS of 15.94
>.5 Crit = ΔDPS of 7.93

1500/20 = 1667.64

1550/20 = 1684.35
1500/20.5 = 1674.79
1525/20.25 = 1679.27

50 AP > .5 Crit
@ 1500 AP => 1 Crit = 56 AP
>50 AP = ΔDPS of 16.71
>.5 Crit = ΔDPS of 7.15

1600/20 = 1701.07
1650/20 = 1717.79
1600/20.5 = 1708.38
1625/20.25 = 1713.44

50 AP > .5 Crit
@ 1600 AP => 1 Crit = 56 AP
>50 AP = ΔDPS of 16.71
>.5 Crit = ΔDPS of 7.31

1700/20 = 1734.51
1750/20 = 1751.23
1700/20.5 = 1741.97
1725/20.25 = 1746.96

50 AP > 1 Crit
@ 1700 AP = > 1 Crit = 56 AP
>50 AP = ΔDPS of 16.71
>.5 Crit = ΔDPS of 7.43

@ 1500 AP and 20% Crit an increase of CR and AP per Table below net equal amounts of DPS gain.

1 CR/48 AP
2 CR/46 AP
3 CR/44 AP
4 CR/42 AP
5 CR/40 AP
6 CR/38 AP
7 CR/26 AP
8 CR/34 AP
9 CR/32 AP
10 CR/30 AP
11 CR/28 AP
12 CR/26 AP
13 CR/24 AP
14 CR/22 AP
15 CR/20 AP
16 CR/18 AP
17 CR/16 AP
18 CR/14 AP
19 CR/12 AP
20 CR/10 AP

Some Conclusions -

Gainging 50 AP will increase your DPS by the same amount regardless of your current AP assuming Crit% stays the same.
The more AP you have, the more an increase of .5 Crit% will benefit you.
As you gain more Crit%, subsequent increases in Crit% will not benefit you as much.
As you gain more AP, Crit% becomes worth more.

Pretty standard stuff that we already know.

So for my question -

Is it possible to create a graph that follows the optimum AP/ Crit Ratio? Such as a line where if you are above it you should start stacking crit% and if you are below it is more beneficial to stack AP?

Fola · 08/24/07, 7:14 PM

Well it happened and I was able to pickup a Dragonspine Trophy. Let me say I am BM spec. and really do enjoy it from both mana efficiency and damage. I won the Dragonspine and then we moved on to Mag for the farm content night (lots of regular raiders were afk making it kinda painful). Back on subject it is one of spec. and post analysis of damage output. I am very happy with doing 1379 dps on Mag (so far I haven't come across other WWS parses of Mag. with a higher hunter output).

Fola - WWS

From the parse you can see I did:

169 autoshots
141 steady shots
8 multi
10 arcane

I guess this confuses me somewhat as I expected with 5/5 imp hawk and Dragonspine I would see less autos than specials (clipping). I am a double macro spammer btw (one with KC one without).

Questions:
Anyone think of a reason why I saw the inverse of auto clipping?

Would you drop rapid killing from the talent build at this point as rapid fire just isn't usable (tbh I have never really used it as BM with a 2.9 spd weapon)?

2/5 in Imp Hawk or 3/5 Imp Hawk (yes 3/5 shows higher damage in the spreadsheet but is it realistically executed damage)? [my thoughts currently are 2/5 now and 3/5 when the haste nerf goes through]
- This decision really boils down to the Union of events having both DS and IH up at the same time, my Imp Hawk uptime is about 29% for that fight with Dragonspine Uptime of about 26%.

Any other suggestions on talent build changes (planning to go with 2/5 Imp Hawk, 2/5 Imp Mark, and 0/2 Rapid killing atm)?

I would like to hit 1450-1500 on Mag. before the Scorpid nerf comes out (not too shabby for 1 pc of T5 level gear – lawl Boots of Effortless Striking, I don't get much access to the T5 loot as I appear to normally be raid healing on my shaman).

Aluriel · 08/24/07, 7:14 PM

I am not sure if it has been discussed before or not but what does everyone think about ring enchants ? +2 weapon damage or +4 all stats ?

Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats - Items - World of Warcraft

Formula: Enchant Ring - Weapon Might - Items - World of Warcraft

Fola · 08/24/07, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Aluriel

I am not sure if it has been discussed before or not but what does everyone think about ring enchants ? +2 weapon damage or +4 all stats ?

Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats - Items - World of Warcraft

Formula: Enchant Ring - Weapon Might - Items - World of Warcraft

For my current gear +4 stats would pick me up around 1 more dps fully buffed but would also benefit by providing 90 more hp (w/kings) and 135 more mana (w/kings) over striking. I personally do not have the rep for the +4 stats to rings just striking for me.

Cheeky · 08/24/07, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Grogzor

So for my question -

Is it possible to create a graph that follows the optimum AP/ Crit Ratio? Such as a line where if you are above it you should start stacking crit% and if you are below it is more beneficial to stack AP?

Yes, but that line is for a specific shot rotation and talent spec. I suppose it is possible to solve for this ratio knowing all the information in the spreadsheet, but I shudder to think of what that logic would look like.

If someone else things they can solve this problem (and realize with DST and IAotH you have 200 shots worth of data to factor in) contact me and maybe we can work something out.

Groggan · 08/24/07, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Yes, but that line is for a specific shot rotation and talent spec. I suppose it is possible to solve for this ratio knowing all the information in the spreadsheet, but I shudder to think of what that logic would look like.

If someone else things they can solve this problem (and realize with DST and IAotH you have 200 shots worth of data to factor in) contact me and maybe we can work something out.

It would pretty much take a dedicated graphing program designed to take as inputs all the relevant data which the spreadsheet takes (including shot rotations etc.) and kicks out the graph. One could even create a 3-d curve of the various crit/ap combos on the x and y axis with dps on the z axis given a specific weapon/ammo/hit rating/talent build. Theoretically one could then calculate the maximum "path" along the curve that results in the largest dps increases for each increment.

I've thought about doing it, but honestly, it's not worth the effort when you consider actual in-game itemization options. AP/Crit worth are really only of importance when considering equal-itemization choices (gem selection being the most common of these choices). If one item is higher itemization level it will (almost always) be better (depending on spec). There are _very_ few item choices where it isn't obvious if the item is an upgrade (except perhaps in weapons, but you aren't comparing ap/crit stats on weapons most of the time).

This simplified spreadsheet can be used to calculate the damage difference made by incremental increases of ap, crit, and agi. It's fairly trivial to deduce which stat benefits you more at a given time once you get your info in (hint: agi will almost always be better if you have BoK). In general though, if you are trying to decide between two items simply plop em in the spreadsheet and see how it changes things (or get the marginal upgrade and find out later if no one else is jonesin for the item).

Sieta · 08/24/07, 8:30 PM

I'm a BM spec hunter, check out my armory link in my name if you want to see my gear/build.

Dr. Boom

and here's one from a lurker below kill a few weeks ago

Lurker Below

I'm naturally interested in maximizing dps. I generally run fairly high on the charts in raids, but I'm thinking, with my gear I should at least be hit 1300-1400 dps. I've done a lot of different testing with Cheeky's Spreadsheet and I think I have about the best of everything that currently available to me right now. I'm not sure if you can really learn anything from the the Dr. Boom, but I did make one big change, I started using Autohotkey for my steady/auto macro so you might notice a change from the number of auto/steady shots I actually get off, yeah, I know boss fights are different and a bit more hectic, but it's what I have to work with. Unfortunately I don't have a new wws log with me actually using the autohotkey program but I did notice a bit of an increase in my dps. Anyway, just looking at the base dps from Dr. Boom, I'm wondering if I can really learn anything from it as far as shot rotation

my current macro is:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I'm just not sure what else I can do to increase dps. One thing that gets me is my guild pally's being unwilling to buff pets. How much of a dps increase would Kings and Might be toward a Cat? Is that what I'm missing? How big of a role does latency and fps play on dps? I usually run at about 19 fps during boss fights and about a 230 ping? Could that be the problem? I always strive to be the best I can, but I seem to always fall short of my goal. What can I do to be better?

Not sure if you'll need anymore info.

Ailee · 08/25/07, 2:56 AM

Currently, it's a bit of an issue to buff pets because of each race needing to be buffed individually; meaning that if the Paladin casts Kings on to your pet cat, the other hunter with the Ravager would not receive any buffs and he'd have to do it again. Wait for 2.2 then when he buffs Kings/Might on your pet, all other hunter pets will receive it. Overall, I just wish they'd change it to be like normal group buffs. That covered:

The only thing I can imagine you doing is massive clipping on shots. I run about the same latency and average about 1k DPS in lesser gear. In no way am I trying to take a shot at you so I apologize if you see it that way. I've personally noticed that macros are terrible, at least in my case. I've tried multiple ones including the one above and most recently:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot

and

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/stopcasting
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/stopcasting
/cast Steady Shot

Note that the second macro is not a spamming macro and requires that you time it all by hand.
WoW Forums -> Fixing Littletrouble to work with KC macro
That is a link to a thread on how to edit LittleTrouble to show the full cast time because with the second macro above, it will actually end it and you'll just have to base it on other senses like site and sound. Anyway, as I was saying, the only thing I can imagine is that you are in some way clipping auto shots or not utilizing your other abilities (Multi-Shot). Then there is the fact that Lurker is both threatless for ranged and the idle time between submerge and the adds showing up can "lessen" DPS a bit. If you could, Morogrim would be an excellent encounter to determine maximum DPS. At this moment, I also see you having Blessing of Salvation as the only Paladin blessing and there is no reason that you should have that. Talk with your paladins and let them know that you should be getting Might, Kings, and Wisdom and if there is a forth Paladin then Salvation is acceptable. Other things I've seen is that you have 1/2 in Animal Handler and that is a DPS increase with your pet gaining that extra hit. Drop Spirit Bond and max that one and get Improved Mend Pet too. I'd also suggest 4/5 Frenzy since a cat with Cobra Reflexes should have enough haste to keep up Frenzy plus Ferocious Inspiration at a quick rate. Over the duration of the fight (13 minutes) your pet healed only 16000 from Spirit Bond which is sort of weak. Especially with you having 3 pieces of T5 you have zero need for SB.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is my suggestion.

A thread I made earlier this week has a lot of WWS's for you to look at for people varying in range of progression from first time Gruul's up to people farming Illidan.

WoW Forums -> Post your WWS

My overall suggestion is to get LittleTrouble and Quartz or eCasting Bar and configure them to try and manually time your shots to a much tighter and better rotation with just using only Auto shot and Steady shot. As you feel more comfortable with the timing and not clipping any shots, learn to weave in Multi and Arcanes in place of Steady Shots and continue until you're out of mana.

Sieta · 08/25/07, 2:11 PM

Yeah, I know that both of those wws examples probably weren't the best for showing my dps, generally I'm usually number 1 for dps on pretty almost all fights where I get to do straight dps, 775 dps is extremely low for me and usually run in the 1k to 1.1k dps. That was a pre vashj luker kill so I was 3/5 t5 there. As far as the clipping goes, on that lurker fight I had 176 auto shot hits, 156 steady hits, 16 arcane shots, and 2 multi, for a total of 176 auto shots/174 special shots, I guess I'm not sure how clipping comes into effect there? Also, as far as using special shots, I was under the impression that using multi and arcane shots were just really a waste of mana for a BM hunter because it's not possible to weave 2 specials between auto shots. Am I mistaken? What I really don't understand is how hunters can get into the 1400-1500 dps ranges with not nearly as good gear, or is that where fps and latency come into effect and it's not even possible to get with having a moderately high ping and fairly crappy computer?

I've looked at quite a few wws threads and it seems like the hunters are doing a lot more damage with a lot fewer shots. I'm guessing a lot of that is having no pally buffs in that lurker kill I posted. I will definitely make those changes to my build, I never thought about imp mend pet over spirit bond, thanks for that info. I'll keep track of next upcoming raid and post my wws from it.

Ailee · 08/25/07, 3:09 PM

I had 176 auto shot hits, 156 steady hits, 16 arcane shots, and 2 multi, for a total of 176 auto shots/174 special shots, I guess I'm not sure how clipping comes into effect there?

Clobbering is when you completely overwrite the next Autoshot with a steady shot. Clipping is when you delay the time by starting your Steady Shot too late. That is what happenes to me when I use macros.

I was under the impression that using multi and arcane shots were just really a waste of mana for a BM hunter because it's not possible to weave 2 specials between auto shots. Am I mistaken?

Yes and no. Multi and arcane will generally do more damage per shot than steady, however it's the mana as you said. You're not trying to do a 1.5-1 rotation, you're just swapping that Steady Shot to an Arcane or Multi still doing that 1-1 rotation.

Improved Mend Pet is nice because of the debuff removal at 50% and the reduction in mana cost if you're just not lucky enough to steal a few Chain Heals.

FPS, lag, all that can make a difference but it's how you personally deal with it that can make a difference though sometimes it's just totally unavoidable.

Drrakkainen · 08/27/07, 5:02 AM

I'm lost again

We tried to move a bit forward and last night we get pwnd by Void Reaver, well if you consider it was our first try ever beating him down to 30% is not so bad but still.

My biggest problem with this fight is that I use a lot of mana to keep pet up, I have to mend him every of this mele AoE things, If I forget this once he live (/cheer avoidance) twice, he may live, 3rd time = dead pet and even more mana lost for rezing.
On Gruul I can keep 900dps, our first night on VR i had troubles with 700, and dmg done by my pet took less part in my overall dmg and dps.
I was shooting less (running from orbs) and for less because only buff I got was TSA from another hunter (no druid, no shamman, just me + hunter + 2 paladins + mage) on Gruul my avg autoshot/steadyshot hits for 660/650 on VR it was 580/570 so this may be the cause, but are there any other tricks for VR fight?

Thanks in advance

Raba_Storm · 08/27/07, 5:17 AM

Originally Posted by Drrakkainen

I'm lost again

We tried to move a bit forward and last night we get pwnd by Void Reaver, well if you consider it was our first try ever beating him down to 30% is not so bad but still.

My biggest problem with this fight is that I use a lot of mana to keep pet up.

Train your pet with full Arcane resistance and you'll be just fine.

Drrakkainen · 08/27/07, 5:47 AM

Originally Posted by Raba_Storm

Train your pet with full Arcane resistance and you'll be just fine.

I'm plain stupid, I thought this pounding is physical dmg and now I've checked is arcane.

Revith · 08/27/07, 5:48 PM

With the upcoming nerf to Scorpid Poison, can anyone suggest a pet to tame? I've read that Ravager is the best, but how would Wind Serpents and Cats stack up? And if I (or another hunter in my guild) uses a Wind Serpent, what is the best way to maximize their dps?

Phanuel · 08/27/07, 6:28 PM

Cats stack up evenly with Ravagers from what I can tell. I need to re-tame and level another Wind Serpent and try it out now that I'm not doing 5 mans anymore and their pathing becomes less of an issue when bosses can't stunned or rooted.

Cheeky · 08/27/07, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Revith

With the upcoming nerf to Scorpid Poison, can anyone suggest a pet to tame? I've read that Ravager is the best, but how would Wind Serpents and Cats stack up? And if I (or another hunter in my guild) uses a Wind Serpent, what is the best way to maximize their dps?

For a BM Hunter, a Ravager is going to be about 10 DPS more, pre-mitigation, than a Cat. This assumes you can generate enough focus to spam Gore/Claw. So that would be the upper limit.

Really it's not a big deal either way. Natural variance in crit rates from encounter to encounter would hide this minor superiority.

Locos · 08/27/07, 7:00 PM

The one knock I have heard against Ravagers is their survivability. This is something I haven't really tested since I don't have a 70 Ravager at the moment, but I was wondering if it was a stamina or armor issue that could be fixed with smart training points, or if it was enough of an issue to make Cats preferable (given rather intense raid encounters).

The one thing I have noticed is that encounters don't have much gray area in regard to pet survivability. It essentially comes down to the pet will die or won't die, with little room in between. For example, Archimonde's Doomfire is probably going to kill your pet no matter what type and spec is it. So, I am not sure survivability is as important as I once thought it was, but I wouldn't mind hearing other's insights...especially if you have been running with a Ravager (I typically run with a Cat or Scorpid....and I usually prefer the Cat for most raids).

Thornbloom · 08/27/07, 7:31 PM

I have been told that +hit gems only contribute to melee (as opposed to ranged) hit. Is this the case?

For hunters starting MH & BT, how much hit do you run with?

Lactose · 08/27/07, 7:57 PM

For a while, one of the gems was bugged and did not affect ranged Chance to Hit. This, as far as I know, has been fixed.

Testing indicates 9% +Hit being needed to not miss.

Phanuel · 08/27/07, 7:58 PM

+hit gems all work for ranged currently. When TBC first came out the uncommon quality glinting gem's +3 hit rating was only showing for melee while the glinting noble topaz showed and worked for both. This was fixed and now the glinting flame gem works for both.