Help me please - Page 111

Gorehammer · 04/14/08, 8:20 PM

I have a question regarding the FD animation and timing.

I am an engineer and always transport to Toshley before raids hoping for the malfunction that turns me into another race.

Lately I've been enjoying the female Draenai transformation, however it seems to me that her FD animation takes longer than that of my usual female Orc.

I am sure that the length you need to stay down for FD to work correctly is the same for all races, so maybe I have been underestimating how long that time is, or missing some subtle animation while lying on the ground as an Orc (or I could be completely wrong about the animation timing, but it definitely feels longer).

Missing some movement could be the issue; at times it's hard to see the animation while stacked up in a group. Is there a more accurate way of timing this rather than watching the animation? Is it even known what the exact amount of time you need to wait is?

Reebz · 04/14/08, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by Cranch

Some WWS numbers from our run Sunday (trash, FLK in SSC, Alar in TK, Najentus in BT.) WS Hunter crit rating around 31%, Ravager hunter around 29.5%. Both BM build, of course.


Wind Serpent

Ability				Total	%	Hits	Avg   Crit %	Max  Missed % Mitig %
	
Swing (Physical)		651 600	56 %	2129	225	13 %	884	6.3 %	0.2 %
Lightning Breath (Nature)	266 913	23 %	1054	212	11 %	576	1.8 %	1.7 %
Kill Command (Physical)		185 470	16 %	228	396	31 %	1406	7.2 %	0.1 %
Bite (Physical)			47 940	4 %	231	156	13 %	524	7.8 %	0.3 %

Ravager

Ability				Total	%	Hits	Avg   Crit %	Max  Missed % Mitig %

Swing (Physical)		839 794	61 %	2569	237	14 %	878	7.9 %	0.1 %
Gore (Physical)			294 861	21 %	2140	103	13 %	552	6.6 %	0.4 %
Kill Command (Physical)		234 006	17 %	257	425	33 %	1321	8.9 %

Note the Ravager hunter's very good at keeping her pet active, and also was alive longer.

One way to compare the two results is to use the swing count, adjusted for the misses. That is, the ravager actually swung 2569/0.92 = 2792 times and the WS swung 2129/0.935 = 2277 times. We know the swing time for both pets is the same and is not limited by focus. So a reasonable damage normalizer for the WS is to scale the WS damage by 2792/2277 = 1.2262 and then compare the sum. (In other words, the Ravager hunter kept her pet 23% busier than the slacker Wind Serpent hunter...)

That gives an adjusted total damage for the WS of about 1410000 versus 1370000 for the Ravager, assuming exactly the same uptime for each pet. I.e., the WS is doing about 3% more total damage.

Instantaneous measurements with recount (reset fairly often) showed slightly higher dps for the WS most of the time, also.

Your mileage will vary.

This is a very interesting post Cranch, something that I have been weighing up for a long time.

I'm a long time cat user (Frostsaber from Winterspring, fond memories of completing my Rhok/Lhok quest with it!) but have considered making the switch to a WS.

Your post seems quite concrete, but I have a few queries, firstly, no Bite on ravager? why? Secondly, miss rate seems low? I'm usually sitting at 10-15% with my cat, and yes I'm specced in AH.

Leneson · 04/14/08, 9:44 PM

So as many of us have seen, the top DPS rotation in Cheeky's SS, even for a BM hunter have Arcane and Multi-Shot in them. As most of us know, the general idea before was that a BM hunter SHOULD NEVER use arcane shot or multi shot. So what has changed since 2.4, other than shot mechanics, that makes these worthwhile, and when IS arcane and multi worth using. We'll ive done some prelimiary math and found out a few things.....

According to my Dr. Damage addon, my steady shot would hit for an average "on a 0 armor target", for 1066. With my arcane hitting for an average of 748, multi at a solid 1407. This is with crit normalized in and what such.

So far we have this......
SS: 1066
Arcane: 748
Multi:1407

But of course we have to realize that arcane shot is not affected by armor. So what point of armor reduction is the cutoff for where arcane shot does less damage on average than a steady shot. Well.....

1066-748=318

318/1066=29.83% Armor reduction required
This is approximately 4490 boss armor.....

If you look at a 7700 armor boss, which is most of the BT bosses, and quite a few of the SSC/TK Bosses: See the other armor thread on ej's for specifics.
7700-2600(5 sunders)-610(faire fire)=4490 Armor
This effectively makes it not worth using, especially if you have ANY armor pen, or curse of reck is also on the boss. Its just a waste of mana, use it only when your running.
The same rule applies to all 6200 armor bosses, which are CLEARY more squsihy (all hyjal bosses, teron, mother)

Now if you have Curse of Shadows on the boss, which most raids do.
1066(steady)-822.8(arcane+10%)=242.3
242.3/1066=22.81% Armor Reduction = 3120 Boss Armor

7700-2600-610=4490 So in the case of no curse of reck, arcane shot will definately be worth the GCD.
-800 for curse of reck= 3690: Still very much worth it unless you have 570 armor pen, which isn't all that hard in BT gear.

On a 6200 armor boss:
6200-2600-610=2990 Which is already below the threshold, so as a general rule of thumb, because in most raids you'll have at least one prot warrior and a feral druid: Dont use arcane shot on 6200 armor bosses, it's just not worth the damage. And unless curse of reck is up on a 7700 armor boss with curse of shadows and at least 560 armor pen, you can do more damage with arcane shot.

On to multi-shot. Multi shot in my SS and in general clearly does more damage than a steady shot, for a lot more mana, but yet no one ever seemed to use it pre 2.3. Unless i'm horrendously misunderstanding something, both Steady shot and Multi-shot are both worth 1 gcd, so aside from the gross mana cost of multi-shot, why would one not weave it in for a SS everytime its up?

Reebz · 04/14/08, 11:05 PM

This has been discussed previously by myself and a few others. You've answered your own question: a gross increase in mana use and CC'd targets are the only reason not to use Multi Shot.

In regards to Arcane Shot you've missed two critical armor reductions - Expose Weakness and Executioner - swinging the favour back to the more mana efficient steady shot.

I'm sure any raid group worth 2 cents in Hyjal and beyond has at least ONE player with Executioner and I would feel confidant in saying that most raids, unless seriously spell heavy, have a Survival spec hunter the majority of the time.

• Intermission · 04/15/08, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Reebz

This has been discussed previously by myself and a few others. You've answered your own question: a gross increase in mana use and CC'd targets are the only reason not to use Multi Shot.

In regards to Arcane Shot you've missed two critical armor reductions - Expose Weakness and Executioner - swinging the favour back to the more mana efficient steady shot.

I'm sure any raid group worth 2 cents in Hyjal and beyond has at least ONE player with Executioner and I would feel confidant in saying that most raids, unless seriously spell heavy, have a Survival spec hunter the majority of the time.

Expose Weakness is AP, and Executioner is a self-only buff.

resstealth · 04/15/08, 1:12 AM

Originally Posted by Reebz

This is a very interesting post Cranch, something that I have been weighing up for a long time.

I'm a long time cat user (Frostsaber from Winterspring, fond memories of completing my Rhok/Lhok quest with it!) but have considered making the switch to a WS.

Your post seems quite concrete, but I have a few queries, firstly, no Bite on ravager? why? Secondly, miss rate seems low? I'm usually sitting at 10-15% with my cat, and yes I'm specced in AH.

from what ive seen, with a high crit rate, wind serpents do the most damage. the thing you have to consider though is lightning breath. if you have an enhancement shaman in the raid, lb eats the stormstrike charges, taking away from boomkins/ele shamans

Cranch · 04/15/08, 3:55 AM

Originally Posted by Reebz

Your post seems quite concrete, but I have a few queries, firstly, no Bite on ravager? why? Secondly, miss rate seems low? I'm usually sitting at 10-15% with my cat, and yes I'm specced in AH.

I'll have to suggest Bite to the Ravager hunter.

Most of the mobs were trash (levels 70-71), which might account for the lessened miss rate.

Dreambeard · 04/15/08, 4:03 AM

Originally Posted by Zeuxis

If you're a Dwarf, don't knock the arcanite steam pistol! The ASP in a 3:2 + the dwarf racial is much better than you might think. And in high-haste environments, (ie, heroism/rapidfire, when you're hard up against GCD for steady+auto hidden), the Arcanite and the CBoRS are performing, for all intents and purposes, at the exact same speed in the min-time 1:1. When that happens, the dwarven crit bonus actually ratchets the ASP's output above the CBoRS for most base-crit ranges you'll see in t5 gear. Even at moderate haste levels (I operate at about 190-200 haste when drums o' battle are up) the results between the ASP and the CBoRS can be mixed. The place where the CBorS really crushes the ASP is in no-to-low haste environments, when the Crossbow's pumping out a nice, tight 3:2 *and* punching with a higher damage range. Of course, even on haste-rich fights you find yourself in low haste more often than high haste, so in theory the CBoRS should come out ahead overally, but I don't know that it's 150-badge-worth of advantage; it hasn't been for me thus far. So if you expect to see a significant amount of haste on your future gear (and you can get a fair bit just with valestalker's and the badge axe), and you're fortunate enough to operate in a shammy-powered group, you might consider hanging on to that ASP. If, on the other hand, you're not a dwarf, you don't operate in a haste-dense (shammy or potion-powered) environment, or you have no intention of going the haste-route on your gear, nab the crossbow immediately.

P.S.: After testing the CBoRS in MH/BT this weekend, the (admittedly small sample size) results seem to back up the theorycraft that the ASP will catch the CBoRS in high-haste environments for dwarven hunters. My dps on short, haste-dense fights like Rage, Anetheron, Akama, and Gorefiend (where rolling heroism/rapidfire/drums covers a large percentage of the fight) looked almost exactly similar to that before I picked up the CBoRS. On trash, or on fights where transitory haste effects were less prevalent, the crossbow was slammin'. At this point, I kind of have buyer's remorse on picking up the Xbow and Axe over my ASP and Twinblade-of-arms-warriors-hate-me; that's 300 badges I might have used on spinels...

The one thing I have noticed with the Crossbow, is that it scales with your gear. So while it may only be a 10 dps increase at Kara/Gruul level of gear, as you progress into T5/T6 heavy badge gear it will increase even more. At my current gear level it is a 24 dps increase over the Don Santo's per the spreadsheet. On a final note, you won't find anything at Kara/Gruul/TK/SSC that will do better (for a BM).

I'm liking the Arcanite Steam Pistol very much. Since I got the gun from A'lar my dps has gone up considerably (which was to be expected of course). Last ZA run I even pushed through the 1300 dps limit on Nalorak, which considering my gear (see link below), seems quite good to me.
The Crossbow gives me a mere 10 dps increase, while a new ring and chest piece increases my dps by something like 25. That's a huge difference.

I'm seeing a lot more gear pieces coming now that have haste on it. If the Arcanite Steam Pistol (with my extra 1% crit as a dwarf) scales best with haste, I might as well focus on haste. But I find the whole haste issue rather difficult. If anyone has some extra info on that (or a link) I'd really appreciate it. I've been fooling around with it in Cheeky's spreadsheet, but haven't been able to come up with satisfying results.

Armory Link: Dreambeard of Alonsus

Keltan · 04/15/08, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Teldra

Do haste effects decrease the channeled cast time of steady shot?

Yes, haste effects decrease the cast time of Steady Shot.

bowezed · 04/15/08, 11:14 AM

If this is considered a stupid post to you guys please disregard it, but if somebody could post / PM me as to how much AP, Crit, Hit rating, speed and so on I should aim for ( fresh level 70 hunter). I use the shotrotation macro and I only seem to do about 500-550 DPS on instance boss fights, and around 450 on trash in the instances, as a BM hunter (41/20/0).

Also, any simple things you think I need to know would be helpful as well.

Hirashin · 04/15/08, 12:56 PM

So I'm running the standard 41/20 and purchased the 2.4 xbow and dps ring. Currently have 175 badges left and debating getting [The Blade of Harbingers] (replacing S3.2h) vs the [Scaled Drakeskin Chestguard] (replacing S3) and [Gauntlets of Rapidity] (replacing S1/T4). Cheeky's SS with 1:1 priority puts them at about the same dps increase (25-30). I'm just not sure if I should be aiming for a set level of haste for my latency (200ms).

My main concern is which would 'last' longer. I assume Season 4 will commence in a month or so and I'll likely upgrade 3 of the 4 - chest/legs/hands/2h with S4 depending on how large an upgrade each is. Seems like there won't be a 'new' stat like Armor Pen vs the previous season, and haven't seen any haste on arena gear.

Wraith40k · 04/15/08, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by bowezed

If this is considered a stupid post to you guys please disregard it, but if somebody could post / PM me as to how much AP, Crit, Hit rating, speed and so on I should aim for ( fresh level 70 hunter). I use the shotrotation macro and I only seem to do about 500-550 DPS on instance boss fights, and around 450 on trash in the instances, as a BM hunter (41/20/0).

Also, any simple things you think I need to know would be helpful as well.

Most of this is covered in the Beast Mastery thread- first few posts. I don't want to say 'lots of each' but really you want as much AP, Agility and Crit as you can get after you cap hit.

Hit rating 144.

Depending on your badges/raidingarena etc. grab the best gear available to you. Cheekys sheet is very useful in planning out gear and where to get it.

Equalizer · 04/16/08, 12:25 AM

These threads are getting so big, i'm sure the numbers are somewhere. But what's the expected DPS of a t6 geared BM hunter at this point? I'm looking at being around 1800 or so right now. But i'm not sure where I should be.

KraxisSingular · 04/16/08, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Wraith40k

Hit rating 144.

142.

Digitrev · 04/16/08, 10:36 AM

Hi guys, This is a little off topic but I'm not sure where to post this. I've been raiding MM for a year and a half but recently I've had a problem with FD's resisting. Since 2.4 with combat text enabled I do not get a "resisted" warning and sometimes end up pulling since omen shows a succesful unresisted FD when in reality its been resisted. Is there something I'm over looking or not have enabled or even a addon that warns me? This is starting the frustrait me and my guild.

Pixen · 04/16/08, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

142.

Just to elaborate on this.

142 for BM/MM hunters.
~126-127 for Draenei BM/MM hunters or if you're grouped with a Draenei warrior, hunter, or paladin.
95 for SV hunters.
~63-64 for Draenei SV hunters or if you're SV and grouped with Draenei warrior, hunter, paladin.

Khassandra · 04/16/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Digitrev

Hi guys, This is a little off topic but I'm not sure where to post this. I've been raiding MM for a year and a half but recently I've had a problem with FD's resisting. Since 2.4 with combat text enabled I do not get a "resisted" warning and sometimes end up pulling since omen shows a succesful unresisted FD when in reality its been resisted. Is there something I'm over looking or not have enabled or even a addon that warns me? This is starting the frustrait me and my guild.

This is happening to many of us since 2.4. No idea what changed but its a real phenomenon. Many times I don't get a resist warning in combat text or with my addon, I'll drop off the Omen chart but the mob/boss will continue hacking at me. I know the combat text and resist addons are working, as they do often tell me correctly when something is resisted, but then there are those other times...

Digitrev · 04/16/08, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Khassandra

This is happening to many of us since 2.4. No idea what changed but its a real phenomenon. Many times I don't get a resist warning in combat text or with my addon, I'll drop off the Omen chart but the mob/boss will continue hacking at me. I know the combat text and resist addons are working, as they do often tell me correctly when something is resisted, but then there are those other times...

My spec has always climbed the aggro meter fast so this is a can be a big problem in the first 1 min of a boss fight. I read that there is a FD resist addon that chimes but I hear there are mixed results with getting it to work and no confrimation it works post 2.4. I just grow tired of trying to explain to my guild that I fd'ed appon CD and omen cleared but still pulled to the point im going to start recording my fights. If I could get a warning then I'd manage.

But from what you say it sounds like a combat log issue

• Praxx · 04/16/08, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Digitrev

My spec has always climbed the aggro meter fast so this is a can be a big problem in the first 1 min of a boss fight. I read that there is a FD resist addon that chimes but I hear there are mixed results with getting it to work and no confrimation it works post 2.4. I just grow tired of trying to explain to my guild that I fd'ed appon CD and omen cleared but still pulled to the point im going to start recording my fights. If I could get a warning then I'd manage.

But from what you say it sounds like a combat log issue

The add on is called Feign Resist Bell. You can get it from cursed Feign Resist Bell and I can confirm it works well even after 2.4.

Khassandra · 04/16/08, 1:27 PM

Yes, that's the addon I have and it works well. However, there are many times since 2.4 when it doesn't register a resist, I've dropped off Omen meters, and yet the mob is still whacking on me.

• Eliirion · 04/16/08, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lindelle

(stuff)... I'm serving as warlock support with this group set-up: Me, 3 warlocks, 1 ele shammy. Obviously I have to pop Fel Manas constantly and if you look at the Autoshot percentage, you should be able to tell that I got painfully low and had to put up Viper for at least thirty seconds. Our high number of caster DPS classes makes sense to buff them, but I am frustrated that I can't seem to do anything to bring my DPS up.

(Stuff)

Would it be worth trying my cat out instead of my WS to see if that increases DPS? My pet DPS did go up a couple of months ago when I finally picked up my WS.

Two points. First, if you have both an Enhancement Shaman and a Elemental shaman, please stop using Wind Serpents. The Elemental Shaman gets a lot more out of Stormstrike than your pet.

Second, if your raid leader is wanting more DPS out of hunters but is giving them absolutely no synergies or buffs to improve DPS it just isn't going to happen. We tend to use a Ret pally on Brutallus, but even a holy or prot pally should be able to maintain JoW which would help you a lot. In other words, tell him it just isn't going to happen unless he does something for you. Also, it wouldn't hurt for one of you to go SV (providing you do run with some melee).

Originally Posted by Solarion

Would it be more of a benefit to have 2 BM/1 Surv hunters or 1 of each spec?

How should they be placed in groups? We have the luxury of having at least one player of nearly every class/spec available, so placement is flexible. Our typical raid config currently looks something like 1 tank group, 1 melee group, 1 healer group, 1 caster group and 1 "trash" group(whoever's left over). I read somewhere long ago that a hunter of each spec in the same group is a large benefit, but that's about all I know.

Someone else replied as well, but the general best case for an actual hunter group is BM/BM/SV/Feral/Resto Sham. TSA is ok, but it obviously doesn't scale as much and MM just don't put out the same DPS as BM. TSA vs. FI isn't worth the damage loss.

Darkist · 04/16/08, 7:02 PM

My hunter has been coming in at relatively low DPS, im a BM spec and i have points in improved aspect of the hawk, but i don't use it much. I end up using Viper due to a small mana pool. Should I be using Hawk for the quick shots?

Also how much does hit rating come into play with my DPS? Ive been told to gather more hit rating for BM how much do i REALLY need?

Khassandra · 04/16/08, 7:27 PM

Hit is very important, especially as low as you are. Cap for BM is 142, you are under 90. Doesn't matter how much crit you have if you can't hit the broad side of a barn. Get your hit up and your dps will go up. I would also suggest using AoH until you get to about 1/3rd mana, then switch to AoV and use fel mana potions.

Darkist · 04/16/08, 7:59 PM

Okay, thanks a lot ill keep that in mind as I socket some items here shortly

fejindeath · 04/16/08, 10:04 PM

I am currently raiding bt/hyjal/sunwell as a beast mastery hunter in almost every piece you want pre sunwell except for my trinkets, im running with berserker's and hourglass/ashtongue. I've been scoping out these forums for quite some time now, but never posted. There seems to have been a lot of posts lately in this and a few other select forum posts and im glad to see all the information coming in, but there is a lot of contradicting posts out there as far as shot rotations go. At the moment, I am using bristleblitz and a 3:2 macro.

The macro I am using is as follows...

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

The problem that I am having is, that rather than a 2:1 + a 1:1 to make a 3:2 rotation, im almost constantly getting only 2:1 rotation other than when im under haste like imp hawk, lust or rapid fire. Is this supposed to be happening? is there something wrong with my macro? am I spamming it too quickly? (this one I doubt because I do it manually, not with a g15 or anything and I know those ones go off at least 10 times a second or so) going off like this, 2:1 over and over, is that going to hurt my dps over the 3:2 if so, how can I fix this, I really dont know what I could be doing differently, its just spamming a key. Any help would be much appreciated.