In my perfect gear setup AToS comes up second ONLY to Berserker's Call. Also Cheeky SS place it in the 2nd spot over the best trinkets. This obviously depends on gear quite a bit, but this trinket is very very underrated. With an average uptime of somewhere around 45% and no internal CD this trinket really competes for a first pick for any BM hunter.
My choice of words was unfortunate, ``not very good'' is incorrect. What makes the 2-minute on-use trinkets powerful is that you time them for use with TBW as well as haste, as mentioned above. The spreadsheet doesn't take this into account and averages out the the AP bonus. Admittedly, the nice thing about AToS is that it gets better with haste. Still, I doubt I'll replace my Brooch for a while except with Berserker's Call.
does anyone have a number on how much agi totem increases a hunter dps froma resto shaman?
The important thing is to get a rogue, and fury warrior in the group with you; and insist on having the Agi totem over Windfury 'cos it's imba for us all'... /nod
(Then enjoy the sound of Malan and the other Shaman theorycrafters exploding in the distance.)
While it's not impossible the a Hunter will have a Shammy in their group it would be somewhat unusual - there are normally better synergies (get yourself a feral druid for eg).
Now I know there's no way I could come close to BM damage, but I'm having a very hard time breaking 1100 or more on most fights, and it's frustrating me to no end. My guild is giving me a very hard time for this as well, since we are working on Brutallus. I'm currently using a 3:2 manual rotation, which is my likely problem. Steady>Arcane>Auto>Steady>Auto>Steady>Multi>Auto
I think there might be a bit of clipping with the Multishots too, but I wouldn't think it would make up for 300dps or so.
Any Suggestions for the rotation or gear optimization would be greatly appreciated.
I am still puzzled with 3:2, 1:1 and sweet spot of the ranged weapon speed.
You see I have got parrot on the stick 2.80 base (aka badge xbow) and archimondes striker 3.00 base speed weapons.
I have 37 haste rating (2.35% @ L70), which brings xbow down to 1.98 and striker down to 2.12 speed.
Armory just in case (this is an alt) The World of Warcraft Armory
I took them out to dr. boom to test out famous 3:2 macro (goes to 1:1 if there is enough speed).
1. xbow.
At 1.98 this xbow shoots out 3:2.
With hawk proc up I get nice 1:1 (if I remember correct 1.72 speed).
2. Striker.
At 2.12 macro does 3:2. Seems ok.
With hawk up it pushes me down to 1:1 (if I remember correct 1.85 speed), but still sometimes it fits in 3:2 shot. Is it normal?
Now to the theoretical part.
If I add there BloodLust (Heroism), then I get clipping with either weapon if hawk is up. Correct?
If I add there haste potion, then I get clipping with either weapon if hawk is up. Correct?
If I add there RapidShot, then I get clipping with either weapon if hawk is up. Correct?
By clipping I mean 1:1 auto shot is clipped.
So which weapon would be the one to use then? :/
Live with Striker and have that occasional 3:2. This should yield better dps when additional haste is up (BL, haste pot or rapid fire).
Or still go with badge xbow and use the same macro?
Or always use xbow with 1:1 rotation?
Is 3:2 overrated? I have seen WWS'es of high end hunter shoots 2.1 base speed weapon at 1:1, does +1 additional steady +1 multi and +1 arcane shot over 4 min 30 sec fight (aka Brutallus). If I had 4 set bonus of t6 and hunter ashtongue trinket (missing a little bit of rep and 3 more pieces of the set), then 3:2 would make sense.
I would like some feedback from high end hunters or people who know what to use in this case :-) Or just give input which weapon you would use ;-)
PS! Usually I do not get to use haste pot, because mana is a terrible issue, so I got to use mana pot instead.
Last Naj'entus I pulled off about 1650 dps with xbow (used 3:2 macro for about 40% of the time and the switched to 1:1 macro to conserve mana - ended at exactly at 0 mana when boss died).
Last edited by Conn : 06/27/08 at 10:43 AM.
Reason: Removed signing and irrc edit
Last night we attempted BT for the first time and downed Na'jentus. I was fortunate enough to get the Fists of Mukoa but now i am concerned that my haste may be too fast for BM. My speed is down to 1.93 with haste contributed from my gloves, chest, and bracers. I have the ZA haste neck too but i have been using the PVP neck because of my concern with too much haste.
Is this too much haste gear? here is a link to my armory as Blizz changed my name recently The World of Warcraft Armory
I normally use Hourglass of the unraveler instead of the alchy trinket but switched to alchy last night to help with mana issues. Gloves still need a chant too.
Also would like to know everyones thoughts on the 108 AP alchy trinket. Can it be used with a more mana intensive shot rotation to make up or outperform other epic trinks with higer AP/crit values?
The alchemy trinket was a straight up dps upgrade for me over the hourglass anyways... considering the mana boost and all it definitely let's me keep hawk up for the entire fight, even mana intensive ones, and even use a few haste pots here and there.
I even dropped a profession to get it:P
Regarding the 'too much haste' issue: I would pack that haste on (providing you're not gimping other stats) and drop down to the 1:1 rotation. I don't know what the exact speed is where you get more shots out with 1:1 than 3:2 but you'll definitely shoot more shots at 1.93 attack speed with 1:1 per unit time than with 3:2. You might even save some mana (forget what the mp5 comparison is right now).
Last night we attempted BT for the first time and downed Na'jentus. I was fortunate enough to get the Fists of Mukoa but now i am concerned that my haste may be too fast for BM. My speed is down to 1.93 with haste contributed from my gloves, chest, and bracers. I have the ZA haste neck too but i have been using the PVP neck because of my concern with too much haste.
Is this too much haste gear? here is a link to my armory as Blizz changed my name recently The World of Warcraft Armory
I normally use Hourglass of the unraveler instead of the alchy trinket but switched to alchy last night to help with mana issues. Gloves still need a chant too.
Also would like to know everyones thoughts on the 108 AP alchy trinket. Can it be used with a more mana intensive shot rotation to make up or outperform other epic trinks with higer AP/crit values?
We only have one retadin and very few shadow priests in our guild, so if the retadin isn't around I often face mana issues (neither my belt nor my shoulders have any +int). Switching from [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] to [Assassin's Alchemist Stone] was, on paper, a slight dps downgrade but it has made it possible to keep Hawk up for long fights without the retadin there and allows me to use haste pots when he is around, so the practical result is a dps increase. And I would say you're haste level is fine, just try to coordinate when your groups shaman is going to pop Heroism so you don't overlap with Rapid Fire.
Regarding the 'too much haste' issue: I would pack that haste on (providing you're not gimping other stats) and drop down to the 1:1 rotation. I don't know what the exact speed is where you get more shots out with 1:1 than 3:2 but you'll definitely shoot more shots at 1.93 attack speed with 1:1 per unit time than with 3:2. You might even save some mana (forget what the mp5 comparison is right now).
I don't find this to be the case at all. My weapon speed is 1.92, and during one minute of shooting Dr. Boom with 150-200 latency, I fire the same amount of shots with 3:2 as I do 1:1, except more of the shots with the 3:2 were steady shots. In one minute, with 3:2, I fire approximately 37 steady shots and 28 auto shots, while with 1:1, I fire approximately 33 auto shots and 32 steady shots.
1:1 is better if mana is a concern or if you don't have set bonuses to increase steady shot damage, however. Otherwise replacing more of those auto shots with steady shots may yield more damage.
I don't find this to be the case at all. My weapon speed is 1.92, and during one minute of shooting Dr. Boom with 150-200 latency, I fire the same amount of shots with 3:2 as I do 1:1, except more of the shots with the 3:2 were steady shots. In one minute, with 3:2, I fire approximately 37 steady shots and 28 auto shots, while with 1:1, I fire approximately 33 auto shots and 32 steady shots.
1:1 is better if mana is a concern or if you don't have set bonuses to increase steady shot damage, however. Otherwise replacing more of those auto shots with steady shots may yield more damage.
I agree I'd always take real life experience over cheeky's spreadsheet but at 1.93 speed, the 50-shot shot rotation displayed on the shot rotation tabs is about 5 seconds faster (approx. 50s total) than it takes to shoot 50 shots in the 3:2 rotation. Same latency input into the sheet too... 200 ms.
This is an argument without an ending but if practically if you're shooting about the same number of shots, then check your average damage of a steady vs an auto and decide from there which rotation to use. favour 3:2 if your steadys hit harder (and can take the mana drain), use 1:1 if your autos hit for more.
Good info. Thanks a lot for the input. I have been usuing 1:1 rotation jsut because i hate the KC bug. This may not be an issue anymore though. Has the KC bug been fixed?
With Manito's Macro set up properly, you shouldn't be encountering the KC bug.
It still happens quite often. It doesnt stop autoshots from happening like the bug used to a month or two ago, but the KC light still stays lit until another KC goes off. No harm, just frustrating.
edit to save double post:
Originally Posted by Mji
Hola folks. Names Mj. Got a couple of questions for ya.
First off, I'm curious as to the general consensus on average Survival DPS at around BT/early Sunwell gear.
Now I know there's no way I could come close to BM damage, but I'm having a very hard time breaking 1100 or more on most fights, and it's frustrating me to no end. My guild is giving me a very hard time for this as well, since we are working on Brutallus. I'm currently using a 3:2 manual rotation, which is my likely problem. Steady>Arcane>Auto>Steady>Auto>Steady>Multi>Auto
I think there might be a bit of clipping with the Multishots too, but I wouldn't think it would make up for 300dps or so.
Any Suggestions for the rotation or gear optimization would be greatly appreciated.
For starters, you should be coming close to BM damage. Typically within a 100-300 dps, although it varies greatly from fight to fight. You havent told us many of the important variables however, so it's hard to say what you should be getting. If you could tell us:
What boss (Brutallus is the best example to analyse)
If Brutallus, how many burns? Are you in soak group?
What group composition
How many lusts
How many drummers
What raid debuffs (CoR, Blood Frenzy, JoW uptime, Imp JotC)
What pet (owl or ravager/wind serpent)
Are you imp marking, or scorpid stinging?
In any case, 1100 does sound low. What are you using to find this out? A damage meter or a WWS report? The common standard is WWS report, because various damage meters will have different results based on their method of calculating time-spent-attacking.
But as I said, you need to list the variables. The difference from a BM/BM/BM/Resto Shaman/SV group compared to a Feral Tank/Prot Warrior/Affliction Lock/Holy Paladin/SV group is huge. As are Burns, Meteor Slash, owl, scorpid, lusts, etc etc. You're looking at going from 2500 with everything going your way (though only 1 lust), down to 1500 or lower, with no raid/group support and using scorpid + owl.
I'm currently using a 3:2 manual rotation, which is my likely problem. Steady>Arcane>Auto>Steady>Auto>Steady>Multi>Auto
A little correction, that rotation you're doing is typically called a 1:1.5 manual rotation. It is a good rotation to be doing if you do not have 4pc t6 yet. The "3:2 rotation" is the act of using a /cast/cast macro, which fires only steadyshots and lets autoshots slip through at various intervals. These autoshot can slip through after every 2 steadyshots (2:1), after every steadyshot (1:1) or they can slip out twice per 3 steadyshots (3:2, eg: steady-steady-auto-steady-auto-repeat).
Last edited by Intermission : 06/27/08 at 1:41 AM.
That was much more informative than the last post directed at me. Thanks you.
For the extra info, I'll tell you tonights results.
1300 DPS on average.
Brutallus attempts.
No Lusts: We were saving them for 30%
Group comp: Imp slam warrior, 2 rogues, Enhance shaman, myself.
Drummers: 4
Debuffs: None that help me other than Imp Hunters mark and EW. No CoR, No JoW, no Blood frenzy, nada.
Pet: I'm using a Wind Serpent, and have Lightning Breath Macro's to my Steady Shot. Leveling an Owl to try it out.
And yes, I was in a soak group, and yes I got 2 burns.
And tonight I got accosted by my Raid leader for not doing enough DPS. Was he right?
Also, I made the switch to Manito's Rotation tonight as well as going 41 into SV for the whole Rapid Fire > Readiness > Rapid Fire deal, seeing if it increased my damage. So far I liked what I saw in that regard.
A few traditional "your raid leader is stupid" things:
- You have a dps warrior but no Blood Frenzy?
- No CoR? Curse priority should be CoR > CoS > CoE, for pretty much any regular raid group.
- No ret paladin is a real shame, but that shouldn't mean JoW isnt up. It's understandable that you're working on keeping tanks alive, so JoW isnt their top concern at the moment... but when you hit 6 minutes with everyone alive and are still short, you'll wish your paladins did their job from the start.
- Why are you saving lust? The only group that should be saving lust is the caster group (if you give mages a lust), due to Molten Fury. All other lusts should be aligned with cooldowns. eg: my group always uses lusts at 2:20 into the fight, right when the BM hunters are doing their second Wrath+Trinket+BloodFury.
Note: while you want to stack damage buffs with lusts, hunters want to split up their haste buffs. The main benefit of haste buffs (Rapid, Haste Pot, Lust -- quick shots can vary depending on passive haste) for Survival hunters is to go from the 2:1 state to the 3:2 or the 1:1 state. We want maximum time in those periods of haste, and we only need 1 haste buff to get us there. So rather than stacking them like a rogue would, we try to do something like this:
6:00 - pull
5:45 - Rapid Fire (and Readiness right after, you said you had it)
5:25 - Haste Pot (assuming you have JoW)
5:00 - Rapid Fire
<4:45 to 4:05 - bloodlust can start anywhere here>
3:25 - Haste Pot
<3:05 to 2:40 - bloodlust can start anywhere here>
2:00 - Rapid Fire
1:15 - Haste Pot
<0:55 to 0:40 - bloodlust can start anywhere here>
In regards to Lust position, its best just to let your rogues figure out whats best for them, because you can adapt your timeline to make it fit anyway, so long as you know in advance. It can be tricky re-ordering cooldowns in your head when you aren't used to it yet.
Other stuff:
- Your enhance shaman should be totem twisting, so you'll have a ~90% GoA uptime which is nice.
- Imp Battleshout (plus Solarian's trinket, ideally) is great for your pet!
- 4 Drums will really help you maintain the /cast/cast macro technique too, just make sure you stop mashing/holding down the macro when meteor slash is about to hit you, as the pushback will cause very bad chain-steadies. Instead, use that split second to multi, FD, hunters mark, etc.
- I cant check your armory atm, do you have 4pc t6? And how much passive haste? If you dont have 4pc t6 and ~90 passive haste... well, just get it asap. I'd rather not go into the "1:1.5 vs 2:1(3:2/1:1) without 4pc t6 and passive haste" debate. The long term benefits of 2:1 are amazing, mostly mana efficiency for when you might not have JoW (Twins, Muru) and the situational awareness advantages of not doing manual and adjusting for DST/Quickshots procs (Muru, KJ). And of course the fact it does more damage when you have 4pc t6, passive haste, and a DST.
Everything I just said is talked about in the Survival thread, if you want more detailed info. My post is just a quick summary to get you thinking.
There are NO DSTs in this guild other than our main BM hunter, and an occasional BM hunter who raids pat time. We have 3 rogues, and 2 other hunters that want it. Chances are low I will get one. Which is a shame because I know it's one of the better hunter trinks to get to do more damage, especially as SV.
I'll keep these things in mind. Thank you.
And to answer your question, no, I don't have the 4pc of T6. And I probably wont for a while. T6 Chest is the only way for me to get it, since almost everyone still has to get their bracers. They'll come eventually.
Also, On average, without a stacked group, and just the usual Pally buffs and MotW, and Arcane Brilliance and such, what is your average DPS? I'm curious if my raid leaders are expecting too much of me.
Hello there! you may have to excuse my ineptitude if i blunder into this topic, (First time writer, but long time reader) but I was just wondering if someone has the numbers to verify something that seems to have been refered to. My appologies if this treads old ground, but i can't seem to find the answer to this issue in this or other threads.
As a pet, the Ravager seems to be better on paper than any other. While it's DPS capabilities seem to match a Cat's quite closely, its focus dump ability (Gore) has an interesting description:
"Gores the enemy, causing X to Y damage. This attack has a 50% chance to inflict double damage."
I am left to assume that this double damage can also Crit, which would cause a quad damage attack (And then we fall back into 1996 and the world of Quake).
Can anyone verify that this might be the case? I'll be running my own tests asap ofc and will post the details here if relevant.
There are NO DSTs in this guild other than our main BM hunter, and an occasional BM hunter who raids pat time. We have 3 rogues, and 2 other hunters that want it. Chances are low I will get one. Which is a shame because I know it's one of the better hunter trinks to get to do more damage, especially as SV.
It's not needed, it's just nice.
And to answer your question, no, I don't have the 4pc of T6. And I probably wont for a while. T6 Chest is the only way for me to get it, since almost everyone still has to get their bracers. They'll come eventually.
Also, On average, without a stacked group, and just the usual Pally buffs and MotW, and Arcane Brilliance and such, what is your average DPS? I'm curious if my raid leaders are expecting too much of me.
Well, here is last Brut kill: Wow Web Stats (Note: the hunter named Ajjax did not have his pet accredited to him in the parse, he was actually number 1 when you add the pet SprayAndWipe)
2453. It is a stacked group... but I'm always in a stacked group, so I honestly dont know what my dps would be without GoA, a couple FI's and a lust. What you can do however, if you have time, is to browse various Brut WWS kills and:
- find the SV hunter - usually, lowest dps, you can tell by the shot ratios and/or armory link.
- check what buffs they received to see what group they were in, how many lusts, how many JoW procs
- check debuffs on brutallus (CoR, JoW, Blood Frenzy, etc).
- compare their dps.
When I had worse gear on our first kill (all BT gear, plus a Felspine) I got 1950 (1:1.5). The next week I got 2300 changing to /cast/cast, however I got two lusts on that kill. The third was 2200 something, but only 1 lust. Naturally it goes up as gear progresses (or down... when retard locks let CoR drop for over 2 minutes, and somehow my two BM buddies died to meteor slash, and I get a burn)
Why is your raid leader giving you shit? Is it because your dps is lower than your BM's? Does he know how much dps Expose Weakness does? Does he know that you are most likely doing hundreds more effective raid dps than your BM partners? Most likely more than anyone else in the entire raid, aside the enhancement shaman.
If he does understand your EW value, and is simply giving you a hard time because he thinks a Survival hunter should do more than you are currently doing, you should ask him exactly what he expects of you. Ask him where he got that number, etc. Remind him that the difference from no-JoW to full-JoW is HUNDREDS of dps.
Last edited by Intermission : 06/27/08 at 2:44 PM.
I'm having some problems with the AP gain from my [Void Reaver Greaves], I seem to get getting too much. They are gemmed with 24 AP, 8 Hit and 10 AP/6 Stam and have the 50 AP/12 Crit enchant, so they should have 37+50+24+10+4+88=213 AP. Yet if I equip them I gain 221 AP, where does the extra 8 AP come from?
When I tried this I was completely naked, nu buffs and I have no talents that improves my gain from agility or int.
As you can see I'm getting the correct amount of AP from [Leggings of the Pursuit], so my calculations shouldn't be off. Am I, and the others I have had check it, just completely bad at maths?
I have been having some problems where I rip aggro off a tank even after several FDs that according to omen were not resisted. I've heard some people say you're supposed to stay down for a couple of seconds or it won't wipe your threat, even if it's not resisted. Is there any truth to this? I assumed the problem was with omen not always being able to tell when the feign gets resisted. Normally what I do is just press the feign button, and instantly get back up and start shooting. So is that all I need to do to fix the problem, or is there more going on here? And how long do I actually need to stay down?
I have been having some problems where I rip aggro off a tank even after several FDs that according to omen were not resisted. I've heard some people say you're supposed to stay down for a couple of seconds or it won't wipe your threat, even if it's not resisted. Is there any truth to this? I assumed the problem was with omen not always being able to tell when the feign gets resisted. Normally what I do is just press the feign button, and instantly get back up and start shooting. So is that all I need to do to fix the problem, or is there more going on here? And how long do I actually need to stay down?
That is a theory but like the others, it has never really proven to work or not. The fact of the matter seems to be that FD is straight up bugged where some times it goes off doesn't say resisted in the combat log or anywhere animates normal and wipes aggro on Omen but in all reality does nothing to your actual threat on the mob. Best bet is if you are noticing it happen a lot just FD on every CD no matter what and hope you don't get a bugged one early in the fight or a string of them late in the fight.
Hey all- first post and want to get it all in there first off.
Alright- I'm a 69 Beast Master hunter with absolutely piece of crap gear. I'm not QUITE in Iron Legion yet but I will be. I've done a lot of questing in Nagrand, but almost none of the rewards are for hunters. Therefore I have absolutely pathetic DPS- barely 270 according to one guy I tried to do Dark Portal with. I'm saving my honor up for the PvP gear, but as I do so I'm constantly getting raped by players inside AV and EotS. My only good thing is the Crystal Forged War Axe. Where can I get some better gear and where can I make some better cash?
Hey all- first post and want to get it all in there first off.
Alright- I'm a 69 Beast Master hunter with absolutely piece of crap gear. I'm not QUITE in Iron Legion yet but I will be. I've done a lot of questing in Nagrand, but almost none of the rewards are for hunters. Therefore I have absolutely pathetic DPS- barely 270 according to one guy I tried to do Dark Portal with. I'm saving my honor up for the PvP gear, but as I do so I'm constantly getting raped by players inside AV and EotS. My only good thing is the Crystal Forged War Axe. Where can I get some better gear and where can I make some better cash?
It is a very good pre-raid gearlist. There are actually a lot of good quest blues for hunters, you can gear yourself pretty nicely even if you have horrible luck with drops. As far as weapons go, get [Valanos' Longbow] as soon as you hit 70, it should be pretty cheap on the AH and will last until you get a drop from Kara (if you are into PvE) or until you get enough honor for the [Merciless Gladiator's Crossbow of the Phoenix] (if you are into PvP.) For melee weapons, I would grind SSO rep until you can get 2x [The Sunbreaker]. A lot of people will tell you to grind Shadow Lab until you get a [Sonic Spear] but the stats from the 2 sunbreakers are only a little bit less. If you compare the fully enchanted items, the sunbreakers are:
-6 agility
-2 stam
-2 hit
-10AP
Totally fine for a couple items that you are guaranteed to get and guaranteed to make a lot of money doing dailies to get the rep for. For the rest of your armor, check the thread I linked.
Maaaaan. Why does theory-crafting for this class have to be so damn hard... Why can't I just shoot the thing however I want and do decent DPS, Like a warlock.
Stupid Blizzard.
Maybe I should look more into the different types of shot rotations, since so many are out there now, it's just stupid. I almost never go to forums, so I've been out of the loop for a while.
Also, would you suggest putting a /castrandom Arcane Shot in Manito's Rotation? If so, where?
06/25/08, 8:57 AM
