Keep in mind that this will hugely undervalue APen, since it scales exponentially as it stacks, and you're not counting the typical (I would think) sunder/CoR APen baseline. To get a meaningful comparison you should probably have at least those two buffs enabled.

Also keep in mind that any scaling buffs that you typically get that affect your pet will (slightly) favor the lower APen build, since whatever you get in terms of item budget when you give up the APen likely causes your pet's unbuffed DPS to increase (be it more attack power or more focus from crit). If that applies to you, then you should be running your comparison with those buffs in place as well.

Thank you for the feedback. This makes me feel better, since I knew I was overlooking a simple detail that was driving me crazy. After plugging in both using my normal raid buff senerio both builds yielded 2440 DPS (7700 Armor). The higher armor pen is slightly higher in DPS (+5) when I switch to 6200 armored mob.

I apologize if this has been a really dumb question to ask, but there has been a lot of debating amongst my guild revolving around ArP and Haste. I am of the opinion that haste is a must when using a 3.0 speed weapon until 2.1 or lower speed is achieved, then tweak other stats with gems using the gear available at that time. I have some cohorts that feel stacking ArP regardless of any other stats or factors is a "win/win."

I am not a theroycrafter, but I do research my class heavily (using EJ forums a lot). Everything I have read about ArP is it is basically the same as Sunder Armor, but at different degrees depending on the amount of passive ArP thru gear. ArPen seems to really shine the most on low armor mobs, but the dmg increase is in-line with AP.

I'd definitely roll with the second macro and manually hit your multi/arcanes. Reasons are A) I think that with macro #1, you'll shoot an arcane shot BEFORE the steady which is not desireable. B) you don't always want to be firing multis for obvious reasons (CC breaks/aggro draws on secondary mobs). C) while your mana is typically easier to manage as SV with thril of the hunt, you might go low on mana and don't want to fire your more mana intensive shots to conserve a bit/save for cooldowns.

On a side note, you can also use the /cast/cast 3:2 macro to do the same job instead of the 1:1 but you'll have to watch your timers so that you don't accidentally start clipping autos when you don't want to... harder to do but I find it to be a much more responsive macro.
good luck to ya!

Hello I was wondering if you guys/girls could help me out with a discussion I’m having with a hunter friend of mine.
I’m of the opinion that the [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm] is better then the [Gronnstalker's Helmet].
He ofc. Is saying the other way around.
When you compare stats the [Gronnstalker's Helmet] has 12 agi 7 int and 32ap and 8mp5 more then the S3 helm. But the [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm] has 16 stam 12hitt 26crit and 84 armor penetration. If you count everything up I think the S3 helm is better for PVE then the gronnstalker.

So wich one is better?

I recently switched to hunter and I've been sifting through the ridiculous amount of information available here in these threads. I *think* I've got a pretty good understanding of most aspects of the class so far, but I'd be interested in any feedback I can get to make sure I'm on the right track.

My situation is somewhat unique. My guild recently re-rolled from pve to pvp and we're going through content very quickly, which means we're all getting upgrades on a daily basis. This makes it a little tricky to come up with a plan gear-wise, especially as a survival spec hunter. It gets a little easier when you hit the T6 level(which we're close to) because obviously you're going to try and use 4 pieces of T6. Pre-T6, however, is pretty complicated I think. There are so many options. Between badge gear, pvp gear, and gear actually obtained from raiding zones like KZ and ZA, it can be quite difficult determining which options are actually worth picking up.

As far as badge gear, my first two choices seemed pretty clear. I picked up the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] followed by [Angelista's Revenge]. The third choice is a little less clear. I'm currently leaning towards [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots]. My math has these lasting through BT/Hyjal but I'm not sure if this is correct. I'm hesitant to purchase any items that share slots with pre-sunwell T6, as that will be quite plentiful for my guild very soon. I don't want to drop 100 badges on an item I'm going to replace in two weeks. Anyway, anyone have any advice regarding my next badge purchase? Perhaps I should just be saving these badges for the 20 or so Crimson Spinels I'm going to need as a survival spec hunter?

As far as non-badge gear, I'm currently planning on crafting a Belt of Deep Shadow. My math shows this lasting through BT, but once again I'm uncertain if this is correct. I certainly don't see a lot of hunters using these belts. I'm also looking at the crafted haste items, but these seem a little more complex. My current understanding is that these individual haste items are not that great until you've accumulated enough haste to adjust your rotation from a 1:1.X to 3:2 or 1:1. Is this correct for the most part?

Moving on to shot rotation. Since I don't have any haste I've been sticking with a 1:1.X rotation using the BM 3:2 macro(manually weaving Multi's/Arcane's). I attempted to use a castsequence macro but I could never get it to work correctly. I wasn't sure if I was supposed to mash the key, or specifically time each press, but I always ended up shooting off Multi's and/or Arcane's at the wrong time(pre-Steady Shot usually). Is this caused by latency, or am I just doing it wrong? Anyway, I've been switching my rotation to a 1:1 whenever I have Bloodlust or Rapid Fire up, which I believe is correct but I'd like some confirmation. Should I be switching to a 3:2 rotation under these effects instead?

Basically it's quite hard to make a plan gear-wise in my current situation and I'd love some input. I'm not sure if I should just plan on scraping by until I can start picking up T6, or if it's worth collecting various haste items in an attempt to adjust my rotation, or whatever. I have a very good understanding as to which items eventually form the best-in-slot setup, but the journey towards that point is a little more complex, especially considering the pace at which my guild is jumping through this content(we cleared all of this shit a year ago.) As a raid leader, I know I'd really like to be able to use a rotation that required less attention. A 1:1.X rotation requires a little focus, especially after you factor in the godawful auto-shot lockout bug which I always seem to run into unless I'm carefully timing each key press.

Anyway, I wasn't sure if this post belonged in the Survival thread or this thread. I've read the vast majority of the half dozen hunter threads on this forum, so hopefully the questions I'm asking aren't completely stupid. I'd really appreciate any feedback you guys can give me.

Unless you need to wear the T6 helm for the 4 piece bonus, the T6 helm plainly sucks. The S3 Helm is better than T6 and slightly better than Forest Prowler's too. The only two better helms pre-Sunwell for a hunter are now the S4 and Cursed Vision of Sargeras (leather blindfold from Illidan).


And even though T6 legs are pretty pathetic too, I believe you will find that the 4xT6+S3 Helm > 4xT6+Bow-Stitched Leggings

Hi Seb.

If you haven't already, the first thing I would recommend is grabbing Cheeky's spreadsheet from here and punching in all your gear/talents/etc. It has a built-in "Lootzor" page that will weight all dps stats based off your current gear (or a potential future set) and tell you what pieces are upgrades, and by how much.

[Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] appear to be better than everything except [Gronnstalker's Boots] & [Softstep Boots of Tracking]. One thing to keep in mind is your hit rating. Hunters can end up wearing quite a bit of rogue gear (since it's quite often much better itemized in terms of dps than hunter gear, especially pre-T6), and it's quite easy to find yourself way past the hit cap. Nyn'jah's being 3rd best in slot probably means that you should grab them and lose hit rating somewhere else if you need to, though. (So yes, Nyn'jah's should be relatively high on your list of badge loot unless you expect to be killing Gorefiend soon for Softstep.)

The [Belt of Deep Shadow] is a very solid belt, and will last you well into T6. Again, watch your hit rating. If you are wasting ~10 or more of the hit rating, you may as well just craft [Belt of the Black Eagle] instead. (There's also [Belt of the Silent Path] if you have the badges.) I'd recommend putting together a gear set of what you plan on having from raiding a month from now, and see where your hit rating is. If you are way over the cap, swapping from Belt of Deep Shadow to Belt of the Black Eagle to lose hit rating might be a smart move.

Also, don't underestimate welfare epics. You can get Season 2 stuff for honor now, and if you ignore the T5 set bonuses, S2 arena gear is actually better dps gear than T5. Hunter Arena helms in particular are incredibly well itemized. (Also can pick up a [Vengeful Gladiator's Waraxe] for a stat stick, the S4 gloves @ no rating, and the S4 chest/legs @ under 1600.)

I'm confused - when you say you are switching to a 1:1 rotation under BL and RF - are you dumping your 3:2 macro and manually weaving shots?
A 3:2 macro like most posted here(/cast !autoshot /cast steady shot) will automatically start churning out a 1:1 rotation when enough haste effects are on you(when you drop below 1.8s between autoshots roughly) so there's no need to switch macro or manually weave.
Also with both types of macro(castsequence and spam) the aim is to mash the button as fast as possible.
If you're looking to manually add in arcane and multi, the best time to do it is after a steady that has been cast immediately after an auto, meaning the GCD can tick down at least some portion during the casting time of autoshot and a short way into your next autoshot gap - that will leave you with enough time to squeeze in a steady, hopefully without pushing back the auto after it.

Oh also - [Boneweave Girdle] is a significant upgrade from Deep Shadow, and better than the badge one.

Wow THE Sebudai? /bow Welcome to the hunter fraternity man, still think i have a jpg of some of your more memorable quotes kicking around somewhere. Let me see if i can help you out a bit, I recently came back to the game after a three month break and joined up with a guild way ahead of my previous progress so i feel your rapid upgrade pain.

Save your badges for the gems, given your previous level of experience I have no doubt you guys will tear up HY/BT unless you get very unlucky you will pick up some nice upgrades there. Hyjal in particular is great for survival gear Quickstrider Moccasins, Bowstitched Legs and Don Alejandros Belt are great off set bits and the T6 gloves are great.

Apart from Don Alejandro's the Belt of Deep Shadow is a great choice for a surv hunter until you T6 belt in sunwell. With regards to crafted haste gear, the lack of sockets and thus the ability to really pump your agi is what lets it down. Haste is tricky for surv hunter but you have the gist right, it is all about getting to the change over points for your rotation and even then without 4xT6 swapping over to a BM type rotation. At that point with enough haste (and if you are lucky a DST) surv hunters can maintain the haste state and then you stop threading.

The beauty of the current most popular BM macro (sometimes called the /cast/cast macro) is that it automatically adjusts itself based on haste. Base state for most BM hunters with a 3.0 bow is 3:2 but for surv your base state is more likely to be 2:1. Some choose to use this 2:1 and not thread while other will watch procs like a hawk and when in base state use a 1:1.x instead, swapping into the /cast/cast when at least a 3:2 is available. Check Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros - INFORMATION STICKY for a excellent summary post about this type of rotation and a very handy speed check chart that lets you get a feel for where your rotation might be, results vary based on latency etc but it's a useful as a general reference.

The /cast/cast macro based rotation is alot easier than threading a 1:1.x but really until you get to 4xT6 it results in worse personal DPS. If you are surv to ensure you have access to the EW debuff first and personal dps second you can swap to it now, and the speed of the badge bow will make hitting the break points is bow speed easier and ability of your guild should more than make up for drop in dps until such time as you hit late BT/sunwell.

So for now I would say, save your badges for Gems, grab some stuff from ZA (daggers, cloak of fiends, shoulders and of course call), and hold out until T before you really start to worry about optimizing your gear. Hope it helps.

Sebudia, as long as you know what your wish list looks like, you can use Cheeky's spread sheet to see the dps advantage of various easy-to-get pieces. What I did was load up Cheeky's with my wish list (to properly account for set bonuses), and then insert in each slot (one at a time, one item only) my current gear for that slot (to give me my dps if I kept that item until the end) versus some possible replacements (e.g., the ZA helm.) Then, I sorted the interim upgrades based on their dps increase, and then just focused on the best ones.

For example, for my gear setup, I have

The first column is the dps increase of that item over my current item (T5 helm) if every other slot is filled with my wish list item. The second column is the dps increase of that item over my current item if every other slot is filled with my current item.

So the first column is the long-term dps gain from that item, and the second column is the immediate dps gain. So currently I do a Sunwell trash run and hope for a Felspine drop, while I collect badges for The Blade of Harbingers. Sooner or later, I will get one of the two.

Note that I need to update the second dps column every time I win a new piece of gear, plus the row that gear would apply to. Things that affect the numbers are set bonuses, hit cap, shot rotation, and effective haste cap (this is where 1 point of haste drops from about 0.8 dps to about 0.4 dps.)

As for epic gemming, well, each epic gem is about a 1.7 dps increase (for me) over the corresponding blue gem, so I don't bother to epic gem anything unless it is at least T6 quality, since the dps gain is so marginal. (My raid doesn't give out epic gems for free...)

Thank you guys for the feedback.

I've been using Cheeky's spreadsheet, however I'm under the impression that it isn't calculating the benefit of Expose Weakness for the raid(although it appears to calculate the benefit it has on my own dps.) Is this correct?

What I've been doing is taking the values the spreadsheet is giving me for each attribute and punching them into a wowhead filter. I've guesstimated the raid dps value 1 point of agility is giving me and added that to the value Cheeky's lists. Doing this actually put Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots and Belt of Deep Shadow above all the other options for me pre-sunwell, including Boneweave Girdle and Softstep Boots of Tracking. I've also taken the attribute values for a character wearing nothing but best-in-slot items and came out with essentially the same ranking. Anyway, am I wrong in assuming the spreadsheet isn't calculating the raid dps benefit of Expose Weakness?

By that I mean that I'm using the same macro, I'm just not manually weaving Multi Shot or Arcane Shot while under those effects. I guess the question is should I be switching to a 3:2 rotation or a 1:1 rotation while under the effects of those buffs. I know the macro I'm using can do both things.

Haste or Crit.

Im BM spec and run 1:1. I like haste and am at a point gearwise where I can stack it to 167 giving me a speed of 1.83. I would be losing a good amount of crit (3-5%). At what point does one beat the other. 10 crit rating = X haste rating? Is haste so negligable that crit always wins? or should I have a minimum AP/crit value before stacking haste? Thanks!

The World of Warcraft Armory


ps. I cant get the spreadsheet to work.

If you are using a /cast /cast macro like manito's 2-part, then you just need to check your weapon speeds at different levels of haste to determine it's value. It's a bit of work, but you just have to do it if you want to know. This is a chart from his thread on Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros - INFORMATION STICKY

Check what your weapon speeds are with different amounts of haste (don't forget drums) and enter the appropriate rotation that the macro will create for you. Cheeky's is based on shot rotations that you have to enter in, not macros used to create the rotation....so you need to figure out what rotation you will end up with at different speeds in order to model them correctly. Once modelled, it's easy enough to determine which gear choices are best.

You are correct in your assumption.

On the hitrating note, if you make your hitcap without the boot slot (and as survival you probably can), you'll generally find [Shadowmaster's Boots] off mother are better than soft-step (for BM anyway, I admit to being unsure for SV). So if you're getting to mother soon, those are another good alternative to spending badges.

This might've probably been addressed before and I don't doubt that it's a common issue, but all the information available has got me a little puzzled at times. That, and, to be honest, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong or if I'm doing anything wrong.

Basically, Cheeky's spreadsheet predicts that, with my current gear, before considering buffs other than my own Ferocious Inspiration and Aspect of the Hawk, I should be getting around 1200 DPS.

However, I only achieve this level of DPS with buffs going on me during a raid, usually. And these buffs aren't the king's treatment but usually stuff like kings, mark of the wild, and of course grilled mudfish and the usual cocktail of a potion of major agility and a potion of major mageblood or draenic wisdom. In fact, according to the spreadsheet, with these buffs and a few well-placed debuffs by my fellow raiders on the target, I should start approaching 1600+.

So, what gives? I use a rotation macro mainly due to the fact that I am not confident/comfortable with manual weaving yet, especially when it comes to being under haste effects like my Rapid Fire or Drums of Battle coupled with Quick Shots or whatnot.

The rotation macro that I use is:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show();

And I think that my avatar has my armory link. I'm really wondering what's going on here, or even if I'm just being hard on myself and doing fine. Unfortunately I don't have any WWS reports available at the moment but if one is needed for more custom-tailored advice I'll see what I can do. Again, I apologize if this is an oft-heard question, and I assure you that I've really mulled this one over in my head before deciding to ask for help and I'm honestly stumped.

Thanks in advance.

Can't comment on your armory, but that macro isn't the best. Try instead:


/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot;
/cast Steady Shot;
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show();

-and spam it just like your old one. Kill command is bugged right now and will lock up, although some state that Manito's Macro (search these forums) fixes this, while others say it doesn't. Switching macros will improve your dps a little. Another possible reason for your lack of optimal dps is group synergy. Are you in a group with a feral druid? Shadow priest (if you go OOM a lot)? Other BM hunters? Is the raid applying the proper debuffs? Is it a stand up fight or a bug hunt (moving around a lot)?

Locking up Kill Command once in a while won't be nearly as big a DPS loss as not using it at all.

I'd suggest trying Manito's macro, while it can still lock up on occasion, it isn't nearly as often as without a separate KC macro (more of a workaround than a fix).

I use Manito's macro and have not had a lock-up yet. However, even before switching to Manito's, the popular 3:2 /cast /cast macro is what I used and lockups were rare anyways.

The 3:2 (I prefer "/cast /cast") macro below:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Just so you know, Bikiniwax, that's the shot macro I used to use. I found that I could increase my total number of shots if I took the /cast Kill Command out of my shot macro. That's why I switched to Manito's.

I use Manito's too but I never noticed any significant DPS increase by using it over the 3:2 /cast/cast.

Hello guys

Lately i have been having problems with my dps in our T6 raids so i though to write here to see if you can help me

First here is my armory link The World of Warcraft Armory and a sample of my WWS from last nights raid Wow Web Stats.

Now from what i saw in recount on the raid the lead hunter was more than 200 dps on me and i dont know why. We have about the same gear (Hes using a wind serpent i am using a cat) BM both of us but the difference is too great. My latency is about 150-190 ms and the macro i am using is:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Well thats it Hope you have some good sugestions,i really want to give my class master a run for his money heh