edited. responded to someone who already replied

I don't think anyone has a good handle on the RAP->LB valuations anymore. Using your numbers it looks like you get 2.3% of your RAP added to the damage. That would mean the spell coefficient for LB is .1843. Since [(99 + 113) / 2] + (2300 * 0.125 * .1843) = 159.

If we could get a few more tests with different RAP values (from naked to raid buffed in 100 RAP increments would be perfect) we might be able to finally nail it down. As it is, your numbers are about double what I see for average Claw hits on Void Reaver, so barring resists/crits/misses it looks like it is the same damage per focus.

This explanation is, I feel, slightly misleading.

The 2-roll theory suggests that miss/hit is determined on one roll, then hit/crit on another.
The only way to tell with 100% accuracy whether or not Hunter attacks use a 1- or 2-roll system is by having a Chance to Crit higher than your Chance to Hit, but lower than 100%.
This can be the case if afflicted by debuffs causing your Chance to Hit to drop, while at the same time having a high Chance to Crit. If, with this setup, you hit, it's proof of a 2-roll system.


1-roll theory, 25% Crit, 5% Miss:
5% of attacks miss, 25% of attacks crit, 70% of attacks hit

1-roll theory, 100% Crit, 5% Miss:
5% of attacks miss, 95% of attacks crit


2-roll theory, 25% Crit, 5% Miss:
5% of attacks miss, 23.75% of attacks crit, 71.25% of attacks hit

2-roll theory, 100% Crit, 5% Miss:
5% of attacks miss, 95% of attacks crit

I was under the impression that the spell coefficient for instant cast spells was .4286, as that was what was added or 'fixed' for the nerf, iirc. Just for others that may not know

[(99+113)/2] equals average range of normal LB dmg...

.125 equals amount of RAP applyed to spell dmg for pets.

.4286 equals how much spell dmg an instant cast spell recieves.

I will see if i can get some naked tests done after my server comes up tomorrow sometime, and see what it comes out to.

Do you mean, "If, with this setup, you hit, it's proof of a 2-roll system."?

I might be using the wrong terminology, but there is a factor all castser's have that multiplies their +damage for each specific spell. Usually, it is a value based on the casting time of the spell, but sometimes it is different (such as Improved Fireball for Mages). I figured LB just went from the default .4286 to something custom that minimizes the impact of RAP.

Also, we were forgetting to count Happiness (+25% damage), Unleashed Fury (+20% damage), Ferocious Inspiration (+3% damage), potential Orc racials, etc. in the equations. I'm beginning to think +damage on LB may have been nerfed to almost 0.

I still have a windserpent in the stables. Sounds like a good opportunity to test this out.

Edit: Great, I create a thread to move the non-TheoryCrafting posts out of the other Hunter threads, and I start TheoryCrafting here....

Hi there. Thanks for making this thread. I always felt my questions were too minor for the big hunter threads.

I wondered if someone would comment on micro-managing his/her pet's positioning (BM spec). After reading about (and seeing on WWS) issues with pets getting parried, does anyone have tips on getting their pet positioned behind the boss if the tank doesn't have him turned from the raid? Does anyone do this or am I just worrying excessively?

Also, I am definitely having trouble with auto-shot clipping when I have two haste procs going at once (from Rapid Fire, IAotH, or Abacus). I understand steady shot should have a decreased casting time, but I'm just not getting it and lately have started to just auto-shot at these times. I guess I would add that I don't "feel" the faster cast time for steady shot. My latency tends to run between 60 and 160 ms. What do others do?

Edit: to add one more question
Scorpid Sting. Do you keep this up on all bosses, some bosses, trash, or nobody? I see someone just posted in the debuff priority thread that hunters should never have Scorpid up. I thought it was a valuable debuff now, and I've been putting it up on everything. Advice, please.

Ahh, so crit can't gobble up the miss chance in a 1-roll system, ok. That was really the only thing I wasn't positive about (and I obviously went with the wrong assumption there :P ).

I think the misses can only be helped with Animal Handler, and maxing it out, as far as parry goes, you could park your pet in the place before hand and then send it in, but that can lead to issues, also eyes of the beast it to a place, but again, you loose dps time with that.

As far as the clipping, I dont know much on that topic, so i'll leave it to others.

Scorpid Sting is from what I can tell and have read, a very large boost to a tanks avoidance, and should be kept up at all times, especially on hard hitting/fast hitting bosses, as it can equate to a lot of dmg avoided.

Rakan,

I have used both Wind Serpent and a Ravager as SV spec. You would think the WS could make use of the extra focus from all the crits but I have never noticed more than a 5 DPS difference between the two in WWS.

The Shot Roatation I use is Auto -> Steady -> Arcane -> Auto -> Steady ->Kill Command -> Auto -> Steady -> Multi -> Auto -> Steady -> Kill Command . . .

When my DST procs I use only steadies and kill command.

If arcane is avaialbe use it in place of the 2nd multi, my bow speed doesn't allow for the CD to run out in time. Arcane hits for about the same as my multi shot with curse of shadows up.

Like otehr peopel said ignore set bonuses on your gems and try not to use anything that doesn't have some AGI on it. I have found that 1 Agi = 3 AP = 1.8 CR to be in the ball park when making gear decisions.

The best thing you can do is get a fast weapon and try to get a dragonspien trophy. As a general rule, the more time you spend in a 1:1 roatation at or near 1.7-1.8 Attack speed, the more DPS you are going to put out.

Here is a link to my Guild's WWS. I am pretty sure I am SV in all these runs. Wow Web Stats

I feel that MT is the way to go. Sure its only 3.5% crit or so but that crit makes your EW and TotH that much more potent. The haste from hawk usualy puts you out of a 1:1.5 roatation and isn't fast enough to get a DPS increase by dropping to a 1:1.

It so happens I have a good handle on RAP->LB valuations!

All they did for the nerf was to change LBs spell damage coefficient to 0.1, down from sharing the same one all instants do.

Edit: This means 1.25% of your RAP directly translates into LB damage.

Edit 2:
WWS against a boss is not a good place to try to figure this stuff out. Your average hit will include a large number of partial resists as every boss has 24 base resistances to every school that you cannot get rid of. When I tested this out a long time ago I took my wind serpent out in front of Org and zapped critters till I got a reasonable maximum with no gear on and then again with more AP.

I was wondering if many hunters are using Kill Command much in their rotations now. When Bliz first removed the GCD, I incorporated it into a macro since I usually had a bit of spare time between my shots to get one off (BM spec with Sunfury bow). I then switched metas to the Thundering Skyfire Diamond, and always spec IAotH. Now I usually have passive haste effects going and have to leave out KC's and focus on just holding a good 1:1 rotation without clipping.

I can definitely see why many are starting to head back to MM as a raiding spec from 41-20-0 once getting the DST. I would never be able to use KC as BM and would probably clip tons of shots with 3 passive haste effects like this.


So does anyone use KC anymore with this meta gem and IAotH? Anyone with both and DST using KC in raids?

You mention the [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] as being higher dps for BM than [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix]. Wouldn't [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] from Doomwalker be even better?


Also, in your spreadsheet, do you have plans to adjust for trolls using bows and dwarves using guns? Specifcally, I'm wondering about the +hit difference. Your spreadsheet puts me at 97.8% hit chance. I'm a troll using a bow with 97 (6.15%) hit rating (no surefooted). I've never missed in weeks of raiding according to sw stats. Theres more hunter testing on tkasomething. Prety much the concensus is trolls and dwarves only need 6% hit using thier respective racial weapons to never miss in a raid (mobs 3 lvls higher)


And lastly, I've read that physical pet specials (claw, bite, gore, screech, etc...) do not scale at all with attack power. I haven't tested this, has anyone ?

It's going to depend heavily upon your shot rotation. The math isn't complicated, if you don't like using spreadsheets you can probably figure it out yourself.

I know Olgas is doing a lot of work on this issue. I don't think there are really good results yet. I am following the situation, as my own testing as a Troll with a bow was inconclusive. As soon as the exact mechanics are figured out I'll update the spreadsheet. For now you can hand adjust in extra hit rating based on what you feel is correct.

There is nothing in the damage calculations for Claw/Bite/Gore to have a pet AP/spell damage component. They won't scale because there is no part of the equation that can change (besides crit rate).

My question (the first of many I feel). Great idea for a thread btw.

Really noob'y non-technical or theory based question coming up...

We had our first Lurker kill last night. Shortly into the first phase 1 there was a knockback and a split second where my Scorpid was the only melee in combat. It quickly got insta-gibbed by the Krakken. I cursed a bit on Ven then proceeded to pewpew my ass off. Phase 2 came, we cleared the mobs with about 15 seconds to spare. I ressed my Scorpid, mended, FD and drank up to full mana and he popped back up. Easy. And the rest of the fight went fine. Scoprion and I lived till the end and we did about 500k damage together. I had a few pathing problems while DPSing in the water, but that's neither here nor there. I'm sure I can find a better place to jump in.

My question is, when I ressed my pet I had to settle for it being content(and devoid of all buffs). So missed it's dps for most of phase 1, then only had it at 100% for the rest of the fight. I don't FD/Drink much. Almost never. Was it possible for me to have fed it? In my limited experiance of trying to FD and drink, you usually enter combat very quickly after right clicking the drink icon.

Is it possible to FD-Drink, Eat, feed? Perhaps there is a cute little macro that makes this a lot easier. OR maybe 100% will have to do for those occations where you're unlucky enough to lose the pet that early.

@Carlaena

To answer your question, yes it is possible to FD, drink, Feed your pet like that. The issue is that on each boss now there are 'combat pulses' that put you back in combat, thus making it hard to time it correctly to FD/Feed pet. (mainly so you cant use items like jumper cables and such).

In that instance, if you can get it done fast enough, you can FD/feed your pet and get them back to happy, but the second your pet is in actual combat (i.e. hitting things) the feed pet buff goes off of them, and they stop gaining happiness. So you have to wait to send them in until they have reached the desired happiness.



Edit: also, in relation to my gem selections - I didnt put those gems in each one for the set bonus. I put them in for the meta gem bonus, which is 2 reds, 2 yellows, and 2 blues. I just put them in places where I could take advantage of some free stat points. For a SV hunter and the amount that I crit, that 3% (which is doubled like the slaying talents) adds up to a ton of damage. So I took the loss on the extra agility.

Also, TY for the advice Jander.

I still think your original question is very much valid. Too right, that VR does not equal Hydross, but it shouldn't matter, because gear difference and 'armor of boss' difference will be accounted for in your average shot damage, which oddly seems similar.

Even more of a mystery, you can omit time available to do damage from the argument, because you are not comparing damage done, but DPS. Damage per second.

If there is something I am missing here please enlighten me! It is quite a mystery.

I'd also like to ask a question myself regarding scorpids.

I have the 41/20/0 spec, including 2/2 Go for the Throat and 2/2 Bestial Discipline.

My scorpid has rank 4 poison, and i was wondering whether or not, i can afford to let claw go off too. My crit rate is hovering around 30% raid buffed. (also have animal handler - does this also affect spells like scorpid poison and LB?)

We usually run with 2-3 hunters for our 25 man groups, and they're consistantly in or near the top DPS slots. What I've noticed though, is their spec/shot rotations/pets don't appear to be the same and in some cases remotely near what I see here posted as optimal for DPS. I've been talking to them and they're really interested in seeing where if anywhere they have room for improvement. Here's a log from our last Gruul's Lair.

Wow Web Stats

Thanks in advance

Scorpids will always have focus to just stack scorpid poison, and the real issue when you have GftT is that claw being on autocast will eat up your pet's cooldown. If you're trying to eek every bit of damage out of your pet, I would leave scorpid poison on autocast and manually claw while scorpid poison is on cooldown.
Animal handler affects scorpid poison, which behaves like a melee attack (you can see it be parried, dodged, and missed in combat logs). I believe the talent affects lightning breath as well, but am not 100% sure on this.

Well, your Hunters could use more than a bit of work, here is what I quickly see on the last (6th) Gruul attempt:
Grawer : Needs to learn about and use Steady Shot. And maybe he should get himself a pet.
Kyoss: Needs to learn about and use Steady Shot.
Moonweasel: Needs to learn about and use Steady Shot.

Frankly, every one of your DPS players looks bad. As a guild you guys have a lot of work to do. But the Hunters in your guild do not understand anything about post-TBC Hunter mechanics except avoiding Aimed Shot. Please have them read any forums, even the official ones, to at least learn about what Steady Shot is and how it should be a mjor part of their damage. Once they get that part we can take a look again, but there is no point even discussing talent specs, optimal pet, or anything else until then.

Hi Dilznic,

The first glaringly obvious error I noticed in these logs, is that your hunters are not using steady shot much. One hunter actually didn't use it at all, in the whole 1400-odd shots he fired.

I'm sure this will solve the problem.

Your hunters need to understand that steady shot is the perfect 'filler' special shot. Special shots consist of:

steady shot
arcane shot
multishot
(any others, but irrelevant)

Because arcane shot and multishot both do more damage than steady shot, these should have precedence, then, only when these 2 shots are on cooldown, you feed in your steady shots to keep up the damage.

So, ideally the sum of all steady shots + arcane shots + multishots should be equal to the number of auto shots fired. This is a 1:1 rotation, one autoshot, followed by one special. Doing this wills see their DPS increase DRAMATICALLY.

For an example:

Your hunter, Kyoss fired:
857 auto shots.
177 multishots
341 arcane shots
0 steady shots

In a perfect world, number of AS = SS+ArS+MS

Kyoss= 857:518. He is using a 1:0.6 ratio. Roughly speaking, he is missing out 40% of oppertunities to fire a special shot. With a very bold guesstimate, he can increase his damage by 20% by adding in those extra shots.

Also, tell them do drop serpent sting, its not mana efficient and the GCD (global cooldown) can be used on something else more beneficial.


Just a quick edit: the 1:1 rotation i mentioned works best for a BM build only, because of the +20% haste talent. Marksmanship or survival builds should look to accomplish a harder 1.1.5 rotation. This means delaying your autoshot to fire 2 specials, so effectively cutting half of the damage of the second special, but still doing overall more damage than the other rotation (of the same spec).

well, one, Moonweasle, is wasting a TON of mana on casting arcane shot all the time and has no macro what so ever for steady shot, since he only cast it 2 times the entire last try of the fight. Steady shot is by far the most mana effecent spell we can use. It costs me 99 mana for an average of 1500 dmg (rough esitmate), and can be used like an extra auto shot if used with a macro/timed properly. His dps will go thru the roof if he uses a simple macro like /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot (its what i use)then just does his specials manually since it seems thats how he likes to do it. iI think he could really blow up the meter with a steady shot macro. Also, I sincerly hope that the 10 aimed shits he did were for pulling.

Kyoss...just boot from the raid. if his arcane shot is hitting for under 200, so i can only HOPE he's trying to use a down ranked version, since he had a 'normalish' crit. Downranked arcane shots do not do what they once did. Max rank on that one, though rank 1 multi is still very mana effeicent i hear. That and he didnt use ONE STEADY SHOT AT ALL.

Grawer...he seems to be doing ok, his shots are hitting for good dmg, and he's using steady shot quite a bit. Here is a WWS stats of our Gruul kill for you to compare to if you wish.

Wow Web Stats



ps i broke 1200 burst dps on one of the Kazzak fights!!! >.>

Edit: Zogeth and Cheeky are correct. I always thought of steady shot as a free auto shot while auto shot is casting, so i use it as much as possible.