I'd just like to clarify something about Gem stacking (ap vs crit vs agi etc).

I see a lot of people saying that 8 agi is just plain better than 16 AP for all hunters. This is very false and misleading.

8 AGI IS the best gem to socket for BT/HYJAL geared hunters who have access to BoK. It is roughly the same/very very slightly better as 16 AP with t5 (ilvl 130ish) gear. It is INFERIOR to 16 AP gems in t4 and below gear.

Agi gems are basically the gem that combines both Crit and AP (aswell as wicked noble topaz). However because it is a primary stat, it is subject to a 10% buff from BoK. This makes it *BETTER* then other gems budgetwise, by 10%. HOWEVER - AP is more valuable for a hunter wearing ilvl 120 and below gear.

NOTE: These values are not raid-buffed values, a flask of relentless assault and BoM will push your "virtual ilvl" of gear upwards.

Cheeky's Spread sheet can be used to determine which Gem is best for your current gear.

I would beg to differ.

Using Cheeky's Spreadsheet, I put together the following profile, of what could be this mythical tier4 hunter.

5/5 Demonstalker
Heroic badge cloak/trinket/necklace
Garona's Signet Ring
Ring of a Thousand Marks
Wolfslayer Rifle
Sonic Spear
Stalker's War Bands
Fiend Slayer Boots
Girdle of the Prowler

(all properly enchanted and gemmed, with 2x shifting nightseye and 2x glinting noble topaz, 4x living ruby (agi/AP depending on which profile))

This gives the hunter 614 agility, 152 hit rating (I can't switch out a topaz, because of the meta-gem requirement), 1821 tooltip AP, 23,75% crit chance.

With a BM spec (41/20/0, most likely at tier4 level) and a 1.1 priority rotation that puts the total dps at the following (vs 73 boss, 7700 armor):

With 4x Bright Living Ruby (+16 AP): 988,72 dps
With 4x Delicate Living Ruby (+8 agility): 988,90 dps

Replacing ALL gems with +16 AP (thus forgoing the meta-gem), dps went down to 983,97 dps...
Replacing all gems with +8 agility, dps went down to 984,12 dps.

Obviously BoK would increase the gap between agility and AP even further. And it is my personal opinion that in a raid-situation where this discussion is aiming at, you will _always_ have a paladin with BoK.

Now for some slots, Demonstalker isn't the optimal choice or you could do Arena to get near tier5 equivalent items for some slots or get crafted gear perhaps.

Still, the difference between AP/agility is small enough that just applying BoK will put +agility as the winner every time.

Just a little advice, Trigger berserking / rapid fire after each other to prolong the haste effect on Brooch/BW. much better since using both will most likely put you below 1.5 speed and is therefore wasted.

I meant messing around to see if it worked for him personally. In particular, I was thinking about this post:

Have you got any wws reports with 1 of these and the with both equiped? Anyone else got wws reports with tsunami+hourglass or 1 of these equiped?

So as im sure most of us have seen, we can now stack multiple hunters marks in a raid. Anyone know anything about their current mechanics? Do we gain the affect of multiple or is it just a visual bug. Can we somehow get more than one to stack up to the full 440 AP? I know I haven't seen much evidence of more than one stacking in a raid, because our damage would go up astronomically with 880 or even 1320 AP for all the hunters and none of my wws logs indicate that kind of a leap in adv shot damage.

I'm pretty sure that they aren't stacking, but that there are individual marks up for the individual gain you get for multiple shots. From what I've read here at least, it's only the base amount (110 ap) that everyone gets benefitted by (at least for imp. hunter's mark purposes), and the other 330 ap is individual. Does that make sense?

yes I think I see what your getting at. basically no one can "not" put up hunters mark now, as it basically isn't a hunter wide buff anymore but an individual thing (as while 110 is something, 440 is quite something different). Im not sure that blizzard would do such a thing without putting it in the patch notes, possibly bolded italiced and underlined.that would be a nerf, possibly not the biggest ones we've ever received but it would definitely reduce our AP for the first portion of any fight, and quite probably through the fight in general as most of us dont constantly refresh HM but simply occasionally do it and hope that it stays up the entire time with everyones accumulated effort.


edit: this would seem fairly easy to test if you had 2 hunters around. Merely go to DR. boom and have one hunter throw up HM, while the other shoots it. See if their adv damage changes specially with arcane / steady. Could also try doing it by having both hunters throw up a mark, then having only 1 hunter shoot it for a period. Then alternating and seeing if the AP for each hunter seems different.

I believe this is just the classic graphics bug with hunter mark that has been around for ages if 2 hunters try to mark at the same time. As I haven't seen any double marks up since the last patch and I know me and the other hunter are both marking just replacing each others when we do. The AP isn't stacking Improved only gives the base 110 as Melee AP but all ranged shots stack the RAP up the extra 330 and that extra applies to all ranged attacks.

Correct you used to be able to sometimes have to showing at once if you cast it at a certain time. Now however a full minute later than the first hunter i can cast hunters mark and have it show up. And even then the last hunter in our raid can cast it and have it show up straight away, along with the other 2. Nothign to do with timing, so i believe its different to the old bug.

also seen that.

I can confirm that this isn't the old cast-it-simultaneously-and-get-two-debuffs bug. I can cast Hunter's Mark on Lady Vashj when my collegue with five ranks of improved mark aldready has it on her. Before, you'd get a "a more powerful spell is already active" error-msg. So either this is some new bug or Hunter's Mark has had some functional undocumented change.

Very strange, the one with more ranks of Imp. Hunter's Mark can overwrite my Hunter's Mark, but after that I can still add my own (making it two icons). It definately seems to be something buggy here.

Yeah its possible. But do you get both effects up from the same crit or from 2 diferent crits in a row or close?

Can someone get a screen shot of both buffs up with different cool downs remaining? That would solve the issue once and for all.

yeah we got our token lady hunter to take 1/5 imp HM and got all 3 up.

Probably not. They could still be triggered off the same critical hit in a single WWS. I would like to see demonstrative proof that they can proc off of consecutive critical hits. I guess getting a combat log showing that is also beyond reproach.

i use them both and they can proc in a row. I have the feeling that tsunami inner cooldown is higher tho (might be unlucky but still)


Should try to check with a proc meter, but i'm a lazy bastard! :P


Edit: will try to get a screen for you cheeky, hope to catch it since it's not exactly common to see it in time

HM's get knocked off by dots so much its silly. :/

Allready tried it with 3 HM's after 2.1 I think, just doesnt work for a long period of time.

Thanks, finaly!

I'm thinking it may be a bug. Our other two at least semi-consistent raiding hunters both took 5/5 Imp HM so I didn't have to. Whether or not I can overwrite their mark seems to come totally at random. I've been able to overwrite at the very beginning, before the mob's been engaged, and at maybe about 1.30 into a mark's duration. Of course, me not being maxed in it, I don't normally try to overwrite or mark unless I"m pulling or I notice that mark is down.

I did however see a "double-mark" on a Kael trash mob a few days ago. I marked before I blew MD to pull, and the other hunter marked several seconds later after the mob had come within his LoS.

I'd definitly be interested in seeing this. I have one hunter that loves using Tsunami and Hourglass for the potential of ~600 additional RAP. I'm pretty much at the bottom of the list for who's getting Tsunami anytime soon, though all the rogues and our token lazy Fury have it.

From what I understand reading the info in this thread is that the procs can both be active at the same time. What it's coming down to is whether or not they can proc on the same crit or two crits that occur in a row, like my Multi and then the following Auto. Am I correct on that?

While I don't have a picture of what you're asking for, I can confirm that they can both proc at the same time and that I've also had for example my first crit trigger one and then a second or third or 4th etc. crit trigger the second while the first was still active.