The average damage is the same. I'm assuming they're also equal speed, and otherwise identical (no +x RAP on one, or something like that). Disregarding the racial, they will, over time, do equal DPS. In short term use, one might be a bit higher/lower, due to randomness.
With the racial taken into account, the gun pulls ahead (for dwarves, bow for trolls).
That said, I seem to remember the damage range of said gun being changed to be a 'proper' damage range, instead of a damage difference of 1.
There was the Thrallmar Exalted bow I think, which had a damage range of 1 as well, but was fixed some time after TBC hit.
I'd like to say thank you to everybody who has contributed to not only this thread but several of the other hunter threads here at EJ. I've recently re-rolled hunter and in my first non PUG 25 man last week I was horrified at my DPS. It turns out steady/auto rotations just wouldn't cut it eh?
Wow Web Stats
I was absolutely terribad on each of the fights.
I spent almost an entire week here studying on the forums and practicing with Dr. Boom just north of Area 52. My guild, after much begging and pleading on my part, decided to give me another shot today and brought me in for Leo. The results are as follows.
Wow Web Stats
I managed to do enough to buy myself a spot in the next raid, and I aim to keep it.
Upgrade your helm to Stalker's Helm of Second Sight (blue quest reward.) Hopefully, you haven't done it and sold the item already.
Best upgrades for you:
T5 or T4 helm
T5 shoulders
Belt of the Black Eagle or Belt of Deep Shadow
T5 legs or Void Reaver greaves
Cobra-lash or Star-strider boots
Ring of Lethality
You can figures these questions out yourself by downloading Cheeky's spreadsheet.
Upgrade your helm to Stalker's Helm of Second Sight (blue quest reward.) Hopefully, you haven't done it and sold the item already.
Best upgrades for you:
T5 or T4 helm
T5 shoulders
Belt of the Black Eagle or Belt of Deep Shadow
T5 legs or Void Reaver greaves
Cobra-lash or Star-strider boots
Ring of Lethality
You can figures these questions out yourself by downloading Cheeky's spreadsheet.
Those are all items you should be eyeing down. In the mean time... get some merc gear. The merc helm > t4. It will give you extra stamina so you can justify putting pure dps gems and it'll let you get a meta gem.
The great thing about saving up for arena gear is that you can choose using the spreadsheet to find which of the 5 would be the best upgrade for you.
I'm with Needhamizer on this point.
It's better to loose 155 AP and still be able to perform a auto-steady-rotation than to stay with AotH and wait for mana and pot-cooldown.
Remember, AotV was changed with patch 2.2(?). The mana-regeneration now depends on your mana left. If your oom it regenerates alot mana per second and doesn't affect your mana-regen when you've got full mana.
Yeah, I hope so. It would be sad if a pre-kara-epic would be the best weapon until the end of tier6-instances =)
During the T4-instances I would buy it when the loot-tables hates me.
In SSC and TK I'm not sure. On one side Don Santos is a great weapon, but with the possible drops Don Santos is outgunned. But then again [Arcanite Steam-Pistol] is really ugly =)
For Koroshiya it looks like waiting for a good drop is the option. Because 2000g isn't cheap, and his guild is equipping him to be able to do T6-instances. A tricky situation.
Be careful what you assume in regards to Don Santos going away. If you want a terribly sobering analysis, download cheeky's spreadsheet and plug in your best non-haste items from Hyjal/BT (4 pc Gronn + Bow Stitch). I think you will find a sad reality about how speed rules supreme (give Barrel-Blade a check quick like also).
Weapon progression is only somewhat enforced through the addition of some passive haste and mostly by one thing……a trinket from our good friend Gruul. Dragonspine meets the checkpoint threshold of efficient reduction of dead time in your shot cycle for those slower yet higher listed dps weapons.
If you end up with 0.1 to 0.2 latency, 4 PC Gronn + Bow stitch, minimal passive haste and no Dragonspine, you may be surprised to find out that ranged weapon drop from Archimonde just isn’t helping you.
I've seen this said several times in this thread and others that Don Santos > all for BM, but I just don't see it. Currently I'm using Sunfury and I have DST and iAotH. Sure I alternate between having a few hundred milliseconds of slop in my rotation and wasting some of the haste; however, overall I'm pretty happy with it.
If I plug in Don Santos and drop DST and iAotH to get the tightest, most consistent rotation I possibly can, I drop 40-50 DPS in Cheeky's spreadsheet. From Archimonde bow I drop a full 100 dps.
Cheeky models the Don Santos proc, and he models the Hourglass proc (what I replaced DST with)... so I can't really see what I'm missing that makes everyone say Don Santos is made of equal parts win and god. If anything, I'd expect the spreadsheet to be much more optimistic for Don Santos since the proc hastes bring up alternate rotations and who knows exactly what inaccuracies that causes.
Is it just the DST that's causing this effect? That seems a little strange considering DST is by no means up all the time and there's plenty of slop when it isn't. I suppose I could try my current gear without DST and see how that compares to Don Santos.
Was reading above post and I have a question in regards to it. Currently specced 41/20bm and my guild has begun trying to down gruul. Hopefully in the near future I get dragonspine. I have both Sunfury and Wolfslayer and use the Wolfslayer of course. If I get dragonspine is it more beneficial to keep IAOTH and use dragonspine with Sunfury? If I use dragonspine and IAOTH with Wolfslayer the haste will be too much. What is the standard way hunters go?
I've seen this said several times in this thread and others that Don Santos > all for BM, but I just don't see it. Currently I'm using Sunfury and I have DST and iAotH. Sure I alternate between having a few hundred milliseconds of slop in my rotation and wasting some of the haste; however, overall I'm pretty happy with it.
If I plug in Don Santos and drop DST and iAotH to get the tightest, most consistent rotation I possibly can, I drop 40-50 DPS in Cheeky's spreadsheet. From Archimonde bow I drop a full 100 dps.
Cheeky models the Don Santos proc, and he models the Hourglass proc (what I replaced DST with)... so I can't really see what I'm missing that makes everyone say Don Santos is made of equal parts win and god. If anything, I'd expect the spreadsheet to be much more optimistic for Don Santos since the proc hastes bring up alternate rotations and who knows exactly what inaccuracies that causes.
Is it just the DST that's causing this effect? That seems a little strange considering DST is by no means up all the time and there's plenty of slop when it isn't. I suppose I could try my current gear without DST and see how that compares to Don Santos.
So I am confused it sounds like you are comparing:
Sunfury+DST w/IAoTH vs
Don Santos minus DST and w/o IAoTH
maybe you are running a DoE or maybe I just dont get what you are comparing. My statements come from leaving the IAoTH talent alone and maxed for both weapons, keep other gear static at end game levels (4PC Gronn, Boneweave, Bow Stitch, Halberd etc). Once those are kept static merely cycle the ranged weapons with DST and without and see what results you end up with - it looks like you are modifying 3 variables at once in your comparison.
IAOTH and Dragonspine is too much for me even with a Sunfury, but that's a matter of personal prefference. I specced out of IAOTH, for the Dragonspine but only after a few raids where i screwed my rotations completly.
But i suppose the Dragonspine alone is better with Sunfury than with Wolfslayer, especially for BM. Since you got the means to try them out, i'd say go for whatever fits your reaction time and lag.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Well, the [Dragonspine Trophy] grants 325 haste rating which is 20.61% haste.
Improved Aspect of the hawk 5/5 grants 15% haste.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
And to the earlier questions.. I'm trying to figure out what the omg hax is for Don Santos to be the best, as seems to be generally accepted, at least in this thread. I assumed it was removing all proc hastes because they're too much for the already fairly tight rotation with a 2.7 speed, which is why I was trying without iAotH.
Let me rephrase my question in fewer words, to hopefully make it clear:
1) What setup is required to make Don Santos better than Archimonde bow?
2) Is the presence of Dragonspine alone enough to make that setup moot?
It sounds like you're saying t6-level gear with iAotH makes Don Santos > Archimonde bow. Is that with a full arcane/multi/steady priority rotation, or just steady/auto?
Alright, I've finally managed to get results that agree. Thanks everyone for the patience. With a Tauren BM hunter in t6-level gear and a steady-only rotation with iAotH, Don Santos is 20 dps higher than Bristleblitz on a 7700 armor target. If you're a troll, the difference drops to 7 DPS.
If you have Dragonspine it's worth using over any other trinket (not just for its "intrinsic" dps, but because it makes the higher DPS bows an upgrade). At both my gear level and the T6 gear level, Dragonspine increases DPS with Don Santos, Sunfury, and Bristleblitz to the point where Don Santos with Dragonspine is better than Bristleblitz without it.
So it seems like I agree that there's some validity to the general statement that Don Santos is competitive with Archimonde's bow, with the caveats that being troll (partially) or having DST (completely) negates that statement.
Looks like, personally, I'll be sticking with Dragonspine for quite some time, then, wasted haste be damned; and yay I don't have to buy a Don Santos and upgrades will actually be upgrades.
I generally run 200-300 ms. Boy do I miss my old server that was 80-100 ms.
I don't really expect to be running at 100% efficiency. Even on a good night I do maybe 80-90% what Cheeky's spreadsheet says I should be doing on the mostly stand-and-shoot fights. I could probably improve my performance with a castsequence macro, but at this point I'm used to manual weaving and feel like I can compensate for lag at least sometimes (during lulls in the fight where I don't need to be paying attention to other things) -- and I really don't want to reduce my gameplay experience to hammering on one button.
Even so, I've been in somewhat of a crisis lately over whether I should be bidding on Serpent Spine if it drops. Is DST worth it? Should I ditch proc hastes and move to a faster speed weapon with a consistent rotation rather than the circus with calliope music I call a rotation now?
Based on this analysis, though, I have the pretext I need to do what I want to do -- keep DST and pick up the slower-speed upgrades -- without feeling like I'm gimping my potential.
I have been looking through the posts in this thread regarding the Wind Serpent Vs. Ravager debate. I have come to the conclusion that Ravager is better DPS however WS overtakes the Ravager as your gear improves. So what i am wondering at what point does the Wind Serpent out DPS a Ravager & what fights are of a key problem for WS due to Nature resistance?
ok, so I had just activated after missing 6 months and my friends were nice enough to let me rejoin the guild and have been getting me a spot in ssc/tk raids pretty consistently. The problem here is obviously A) my gear was great 6 months ago, B) I knew all the fights that we were doing 6 months ago. However now I am in all new fights that i have never encountered before, so i have not learned the tricks and tips that allow you to push your dps to the max.
One fight that i am having an extreme amount of trouble pulling great dps on (About 200 less than what i usually pull) Is on Lurker. I hear this is a great hunter fight, probably becuase we can DPS during his spout? Either way, I need some tips on how to keep my pet alive, because that is what is hamering my DPS.
Same question for Al'ar. Any tips for keeping my let alive? Somehow ive figured out some ways to keep my pet up through leo every phase, vashj is not TOO bad, phase 3 can suck if my pet does the stupid auto pathing that sticks it in the poison, kael some phases I can, some I can not. In general though, lurker and Al'ar seem to be the hardest on keeping my pet alive. This is probably becuase i dont recognize the mechanics of the fight completely. No one ever REALLY explained what to do in either fight, I basically just mimic everyone else, unless i have a specific job, or targeting order.
ok, so I had just activated after missing 6 months and my friends were nice enough to let me rejoin the guild and have been getting me a spot in ssc/tk raids pretty consistently. The problem here is obviously A) my gear was great 6 months ago, B) I knew all the fights that we were doing 6 months ago. However now I am in all new fights that i have never encountered before, so i have not learned the tricks and tips that allow you to push your dps to the max.
One fight that i am having an extreme amount of trouble pulling great dps on (About 200 less than what i usually pull) Is on Lurker. I hear this is a great hunter fight, probably becuase we can DPS during his spout? Either way, I need some tips on how to keep my pet alive, because that is what is hamering my DPS.
Same question for Al'ar. Any tips for keeping my let alive? Somehow ive figured out some ways to keep my pet up through leo every phase, vashj is not TOO bad, phase 3 can suck if my pet does the stupid auto pathing that sticks it in the poison, kael some phases I can, some I can not. In general though, lurker and Al'ar seem to be the hardest on keeping my pet alive. This is probably becuase i dont recognize the mechanics of the fight completely. No one ever REALLY explained what to do in either fight, I basically just mimic everyone else, unless i have a specific job, or targeting order.
Thanks.
I dont know but I never have a problem with my pet dying on Lurker. The only time my pet dies is when I would sick him on the add on the main platform and he would get cleaved (I would assume this is what ur pet is dying from). I just told the tank on the add on my add to turn the add around. Mend pet should be sufficient enough to take the whirls. On A'lar just make sure you get your pet away from the add about 10%, the add explodes and ur pet will more than likely die from it. And just hope ur pet doesnt path through a flame patch. Hope this helps
One fight that i am having an extreme amount of trouble pulling great dps on (About 200 less than what i usually pull) Is on Lurker. I hear this is a great hunter fight, probably becuase we can DPS during his spout? Either way, I need some tips on how to keep my pet alive, because that is what is hamering my DPS.
Basically, for Lurker, you'll most likely be assigned to one of the platforms. Have your pet on PASSIVE and STAY orders, on the inner ring, out of any water, even shallow, and directly in front of you. Now, pets are immune to the knockback effects of both whirl and spout, but they do take damage. You'll want to keep Mend pet up on the pet quite a lot, so keep the pet in range. Nuke Lurker while surfaced, have the pet do the same. When the adds come, i just ignore giving my pet any orders, and just focus my attention on the adds.
Originally Posted by valir2.0
Same question for Al'ar. Any tips for keeping my let alive? Somehow ive figured out some ways to keep my pet up through leo every phase, vashj is not TOO bad, phase 3 can suck if my pet does the stupid auto pathing that sticks it in the poison, kael some phases I can, some I can not. In general though, lurker and Al'ar seem to be the hardest on keeping my pet alive. This is probably becuase i dont recognize the mechanics of the fight completely. No one ever REALLY explained what to do in either fight, I basically just mimic everyone else, unless i have a specific job, or targeting order.
Depends on what you're doing assigned to, really. If you're assigned to dps Al'ar, the pet MAY be out of line of sight for healing; in that case just pull it back for a while. If you're on adds duty, pull the pet out when the adds get to 20% health; for me, personally, that explosion the embers use is the main cause of pet deaths out of all the tier 5 content.
Overall, there's a few tricks for pet survivability in instances, I'm going to list them here since I'm not sure you're familiar with all the new stuff (you said you were gone for six months or so).
Firstly, Mend pet has been changed from the old mana costly, channeled spell, to an instant cast HOT. This helps in keeping Mend Pet up almost constantly, if need be.
Avoidance comes in 2 ranks from pet trainers. Rank 2 is great for raiding pets, and it actually works.
Resistances work well in mitigating AOE damage. Whirlwinds can be avoided by pet management, and cleaves by positioning the pet behind the target. In 2.3, this will be default pet behaviour, so there's no need to invest heavily in armor for physical damage reduction. Invest your points in stamina, and 2 resistances. It's probably been posted here a few times, but having a pet tailored for TE with Arcane and Fire resistance, and one for SSC with Nature and Frost resistance helps your pets survive longer. Alternatively, you can respec your pet for every raid, but it's not recommended if you're forgetful.
Finally, the Tier5 2/5 piece bonus is good for hunters, aim for it if you don't already have it (i can't access the armory from the college computers right now)
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
I dont know but I never have a problem with my pet dying on Lurker. The only time my pet dies is when I would sick him on the add on the main platform and he would get cleaved (I would assume this is what ur pet is dying from). I just told the tank on the add on my add to turn the add around. Mend pet should be sufficient enough to take the whirls. On A'lar just make sure you get your pet away from the add about 10%, the add explodes and ur pet will more than likely die from it. And just hope ur pet doesnt path through a flame patch. Hope this helps
ahhhh i just watched the lurker video that someone made (we ran through with mainly alts...someone thought itd be funny, we had some poorly geared people etc. The best part was the person put the video in fast forward, and to the bennyhill theme ) and i saw what i think has been killing my pet. When he does the thing that knocks everyone backwards, my pet is staying up front. He turns and hits bobo for 13k. T_T
Here's my armour profile. Guild is currently in SSC/TK, having downed lurker, vr and solarian. I'm BM specced 41/20, using a steady auto, KC macro. As i'm on oceanic server, my ping is normally 400-500ms.
Hoping for some advice from you guys regarding my gear and stats. I had been thinking that the next bow upgrade for me would be Vasj's serpentspine longbow. However, after reading this forum i'm not so sure anymore. Read that Dos Santos is one of the best BM weapon till T6. Friend of mine currently have 1, so if it is better i'll be buying it off him. Can anyone advise on weapon choice?
Also, the trinkets i'm aiming for is tsunami and DST. However, i read that DST is best used in certain combination with regards to weapon spd, IAOTH etc. Can anyone advise?
ahhhh i just watched the lurker video that someone made (we ran through with mainly alts...someone thought itd be funny, we had some poorly geared people etc. The best part was the person put the video in fast forward, and to the bennyhill theme ) and i saw what i think has been killing my pet. When he does the thing that knocks everyone backwards, my pet is staying up front. He turns and hits bobo for 13k. T_T
Well maybe ur tank is not tanking in the water. That would lead to all melee being knocked back and since ur pet is not affected by the knock back then "Bobo" will pretty much get wtf!? pwned. Maybe you should suggest to your MT that he tanks in the water during the fight. The tank will not get knocked back and will never get accidentally hit by spout. That way there is no incidental deaths like if someone got in melee range of Lurker before the MT. The 500 dmg every 3secs is really nothing compared to loosing a dps
The best thing I've found for lurker is to sit your pet on the outer rim of the circular platform. When spout or whirl starts, put him back on passive to pull him away from melee range to stop him being melee targeted.
I'd actually like to ask some advice on a different topic... 2.3 has buffed alot of hunter skills and although alot of them are not ideal they are a big buff. The problem that I'd like to ask some other PTR hunters about is castsequence macros. Is there a new macro for hunters that helps time shots better than manual rotations? or will we have to go back to loosing overall DPS with latency timing?
10/31/07, 6:43 AM
