Help me please - Page 49

Nieto · 11/08/07, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bearach

Hm if a hunter is at the bottom of the dps meters usually one of two things are wrong:

1/ Pet is not being used or is not included in damage meter. Some addons are notorious (among hunters that is) for not including pet damage, good meters that do would be either SW Stats or Recount.
2/ Shot rotation. It's easy to mess up actually. What's your rotation, and are you using a cast bar to make sure you're not clipping autoshot?

On your profile, I presume you logged off in PvP gear, which doesn't help. If this is your raiding gear, that would explain some of the lacking DPS, your AP and crit are rather low for a raiding Marksman hunter and there are lacking enchants as well as some less-than-optimal enchant and gem choices.

Hi,

This is my pvp gear, i will log off in my raid gear, i had forgot people would be still be looking at my profile for my post.

I will also try to get a WSS parse as i'm sure this is the most useful bit of info. Thanks

Needhamizer · 11/08/07, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

If your flight time to the mob is constant (both you and it are standing still) my parser will give you an average time between auto shots. I use it to figure out stuff like this (link in my sig, need java, etc).

Thank you... I will test this out on those mobs on blasted lands.

daesilin · 11/08/07, 3:12 PM

Hey all.. just spent most of my last 12 hour shift sifting through a lot of this info and love it.. definitely allowed me to further my base knowledge on my class. I am a firm believer in WWS and use recount all of the time. However am looking for some info on using "Log Parser for BM Hunters". Also, is this tool useable with MM & Surv hunters? I switch between all 3 builds to change it up.

And on a side note messed around on the PTR witha 41/11/9 build anyone else tried this and or recommend it? The build would be test build just thoughts on it

Cheeky · 11/08/07, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by daesilin

And on a side note messed around on the PTR witha 41/11/9 build anyone else tried this and or recommend it? The build would be test build just thoughts on it

For DPS, you really can't come up with a build without 5/5 Mortal Shots that's going to be comparable. 20 points in MM is a must for a raiding Hunter.

XG08Zero · 11/08/07, 4:13 PM

I hate to just jump in and ask for help, and I hope this thread is still going =S

http://www.immersive-lan.com:8080/in...pper&Itemid=12

Our first kill of hydross. Armory shows my pve spec and gear.

I used to read alot here and play around with the spreadsheet but I'm still unsatisfied with my results. It seems like I should do much more than just 842dps. I honestly don't know what's wrong.

Also, I had to keep Aspect of the Wild up throughout the fight, so I'm guessing that's around 80dps increase if I was able to use it? Still not convinced that even with hawk I'm dealing what I should be. It seems people in lesser gear than me have had better numbers.

*Yes I used the macro this fight to try to get the most i could.

Note - don't mind the other hunter's low dps. I'm not concerned with them. Prucian is the class leader so I'll let him handle it.

valir2.0 · 11/08/07, 4:41 PM

With 2.3 announced, and ZA/new badge loot, haste static haste rating is going to be much easier to come by.

So I was wondering, how much haste rating would i need to bring a 3.0 speed bow to 2.7? Also I wonder if it would be worth sacrificing some other stats to bring a superior dps/damage ranged weapon down to perfect BM speeds?

EDIT: I saw a post about how since haste does not scale with mets MM/Survival specs are the main customers for this gear. However I was under the impression that haste is, for the most part, worthless in these specs because it cuts your optimal 1:1.5 rotation into a very weird ratio?

Mainly I am wondering will i be able to get my arcanite steam pistol, and soon legion killer down to 2.7 speed?

Kierran · 11/08/07, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Valir

So I was wondering, how much haste rating would i need to bring a 3.0 speed bow to 2.7? Also I wonder if it would be worth sacrificing some other stats to bring a superior dps/damage ranged weapon down to perfect BM speeds?

(3.0) / (2.7) = 1.111, so you'll need 11.1% haste. 15.76 haste rating = 1% haste, so that works out to 175 haste rating. That's a lot of gear.

I don't know what the item budget is for haste rating (i.e. how much iLevel is 1 haste rating?), so I can't give a blanket answer as to whether it's worthwhile. Plug different gear combinations into Cheeky's spreadsheet to check for yourself.

Originally Posted by Valir

I saw a post about how since haste does not scale with mets MM/Survival specs are the main customers for this gear. However I was under the impression that haste is, for the most part, worthless in these specs because it cuts your optimal 1:1.5 rotation into a very weird ratio?

This is true; you're going to have 175-haste-rating worth of itemization budget that doesn't scale your pet at all. Again, check Cheeky's sheet to see what the result is. As for MM/Surv, you're only looking for a little bit of haste in most cases to tighten up your rotation. A 3.0 weapon fires at 2.61 with a quiver. To get down to 2.5 (closer to ideal for 5 or 10 second rotations) only takes around 70 haste. That's less item budget wasted on stats that don't affect your pet, and you don't care so much anyway since you're not Beast spec.

Cheeky · 11/08/07, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by XG08Zero

I hate to just jump in and ask for help, and I hope this thread is still going =S

http://www.immersive-lan.com:8080/in...pper&Itemid=12

Got a permissions error trying to view this. Hard to critique what I can't see.

XG08Zero · 11/08/07, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Got a permissions error trying to view this. Hard to critique what I can't see.

wow i'm dumb -___-

so the wws logs are stored in guild website, and i guess members only can view...

hmmm, seems like I'll have to record one myself and load it publicly. Have no idea how I can get public access to guild recorded ones unless I make you log in with an account.

sigh, guess I'll have to try uploading my first WWS log myself next fight (though most of our bosses on farm status are cleared for the week

).

ty for trying to help cheeky :P You and howitzer are my fav's and have taught me alot.

RMBray · 11/08/07, 7:05 PM

I am a 70 BM hunter who does mostly PvP. I do PvE for questing and farming and (due to time constraints) only the occassional instance. My question is relating to gear. I currently am wearing greaves of desolation. Are the Leggings of Beast Mastery good for arena and PvP play? Or are they not worth the money? I know that there are better out there, like scaled greaves of patience, but i have been unsuccessful in obtaining them.

Also, I trained a scorpid before I found this site. Unfortunately he has Scorpid Poison rank 5. How does a scorpid with rank 5 compare in DPS to a ravager?

Gjorn · 11/08/07, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by Enova

Well, it's not a matter of missing something or not, and it's no big theorycraft secret. Basically, patch 2.3 will add lots of passive haste and armor penetration on both Zul'Aman drops ([Tuskbreaker]) and on new badge rewards ([Shifting Camouflage Pants]). However, neither haste nor armor penetration does not scale to pets, making Marksmanship and Survival the main customers for these.

Also, hunters get buffed for arenas in season 3, so your friends might want to have an all-purpose spec (and x/41+/x is still the best arena spec, and not all that bad for raids, either). Overall, as you said it, it's just a matter of flavor, because i strongly doubt that the badge and ZA gear alone will make marksmanship viable at that level (meaning it's only in fights such as Archimonde, where pets die to Doomfire where marksmanship truly shines)

I guess it's the PvP aspect that is the major selling point in this case, since ZA loot will be some way off still, due to our casual progression.

And thanks, now I'm confident that I won't have to respec on patch day, due to another major shift in talent viability.

Malvan · 11/08/07, 10:46 PM

Oh man, could someone tell me where to go to check out the new Hunter badge gear from 2.3? I'm not sure how to get a list of it on thottbot or wowhead.

Keltan · 11/09/07, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by RMBray

Are the Leggings of Beast Mastery good for arena and PvP play? Or are they not worth the money?

They are worse than what you have already, and definitely not worth the money.

Also, I trained a scorpid before I found this site. Unfortunately he has Scorpid Poison rank 5. How does a scorpid with rank 5 compare in DPS to a ravager?

Quoting myself from 5 pages ago...

Originally Posted by Keltan

Ravagers have a slight dps advantage (~5 dps) over Cats/Raptors. Those are the 3 highest damage pets. If you are Survival Build with high levels of crit, a Windserpent can possibly be a good alternative, since it can dump up to 50 focus per cooldown, whereas a Ravager/Cat/Raptor can only dump 25 per cooldown.

Scorpid Poison's scaling was nerfed in 2.2. Scorpions are now terrible as a PvE pet. (They are still good in PvP for stacking debuffs on casters so they can't dispell Viper String.)

Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development

bonnieparker · 11/09/07, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Kierran

(3.0) / (2.7) = 1.111, so you'll need 11.1% haste. 15.76 haste rating = 1% haste, so that works out to 175 haste rating. That's a lot of gear.

I don't know what the item budget is for haste rating (i.e. how much iLevel is 1 haste rating?), so I can't give a blanket answer as to whether it's worthwhile. Plug different gear combinations into Cheeky's spreadsheet to check for yourself.
This is true; you're going to have 175-haste-rating worth of itemization budget that doesn't scale your pet at all. Again, check Cheeky's sheet to see what the result is. As for MM/Surv, you're only looking for a little bit of haste in most cases to tighten up your rotation. A 3.0 weapon fires at 2.61 with a quiver. To get down to 2.5 (closer to ideal for 5 or 10 second rotations) only takes around 70 haste. That's less item budget wasted on stats that don't affect your pet, and you don't care so much anyway since you're not Beast spec.

Note that you don't necessarily need 175 depending on your goals. For example, with my current gear, if I want my Sunfury to outdps my Wolfslayer I can get away with less haste than I would need to bring the weapon speed from 2.9 to 2.7.

Here is the easy way to figure it out. Using Cheeky's sheet, create a custom neck that is a duplicate of your current neck. Now add haste to it incrementally until the slower weapon overtakes the faster one in dps. IIRC I needed about 80 haste for Sunfury to outdps WS and about 100 haste for Serpent Spine to outdps WS.

intressepil · 11/09/07, 6:27 PM

Originally Posted by Kierran

(3.0) / (2.7) = 1.111, so you'll need 11.1% haste. 15.76 haste rating = 1% haste, so that works out to 175 haste rating. That's a lot of gear.

I don't know what the item budget is for haste rating (i.e. how much iLevel is 1 haste rating?), so I can't give a blanket answer as to whether it's worthwhile. Plug different gear combinations into Cheeky's spreadsheet to check for yourself.

I don't think this is true, unless you choose not to equip a quiver or ammo pouch. The formula for attack speed (snatched from Lactose) is:

HastedSpeed = WeaponSpeed / ([1 + aHaste%]*[1 + bHaste%]*...)

The famous 2.7-speed [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] becomes 1.96 (~2) attack speed when you add in the 15% ammo pouch haste. In order to get that from a 2.9 weapon, the formula is:

2 = 2.9 / 1.15x

where x is one plus the needed amount of haste in percent.

In this case, it means approximately 26% haste, which is a stunning 411 haste rating. Either this is a pretty dead project, or I've counted/understood wrong. Howerever, like someone above me posted, this doesn't in theory mean that it's useless to have a slower weapon and try to pimp the speed with haste rating, just because you can't reach the optimal speed. It's all about tradeoffs gearwise, and I sort of doubt it's worth trading away all those juicy stats you could have for haste, when you'll still end up with an inferior rotation.

Kierran · 11/09/07, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by intressepil

The famous 2.7-speed Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle becomes 1.96 (~2) attack speed when you add in the 15% ammo pouch haste.

It doesn't become 1.96 unless you add in a quiver AND Serpent Swiftness. I interpreted Valir's question as, "How much additional haste would I need to make a 3.0 weapon behave like a 2.7 weapon before applying other effects (quiver, SS, etc)?" This is a legitimate question, as 2.7 is near-optimal for BM hunters, but many late-game weapons are around 3.0. So rather than drag his 2.7 Wolfslayer all the way to BT, would it be possible to use passive haste to bring the 3.0 Serpent Spine down to the Wolfslayer-equivalent 2.7? The answer is, "Yes, it's possible," although it may not be higher DPS when compared to an alternative gear list that spends item budget on Agi/Crit/AP instead of haste.

Flyx · 11/09/07, 8:06 PM

A quick question on feign death. I have been noticing that my aggro on KTM doesn't drop when I FD anymore. It doesn't resist so I know it should work. Is this just a bug in KTM that means it only drops aggro when you leave combat (which doesn't happen when my pet keeps hitting the boss) or is feign death not working correctly when my pet is hitting a boss, meaning that I don't actually lose any aggro.

Lindelle · 11/09/07, 8:13 PM

@ Flyx

It's a bug with KTM. Get Omen, and make sure you tell your guild's leaders that it's a bug with KTM and convince everyone to get Omen, if you can. We did when it originally happened with the last patch.

intressepil · 11/10/07, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Kierran

It doesn't become 1.96 unless you add in a quiver AND Serpent Swiftness. I interpreted Valir's question as, "How much additional haste would I need to make a 3.0 weapon behave like a 2.7 weapon before applying other effects (quiver, SS, etc)?" This is a legitimate question, as 2.7 is near-optimal for BM hunters, but many late-game weapons are around 3.0. So rather than drag his 2.7 Wolfslayer all the way to BT, would it be possible to use passive haste to bring the 3.0 Serpent Spine down to the Wolfslayer-equivalent 2.7? The answer is, "Yes, it's possible," although it may not be higher DPS when compared to an alternative gear list that spends item budget on Agi/Crit/AP instead of haste.

There you go, I did miss something, thanks.

2 = 2.9 / (1.15*1.2*x)
2 = 2.9 / 1.38x
1.38x = 2.9 / 2
x = 1.45 / 1.38
x = 1.05

This means only 5% haste, or 78.85 haste rating (8.7% or 137 haste rating for a weapon with 3.0 speed. Does that check out?

Shibam · 11/10/07, 9:43 PM

I plugged black bow of the betrayer (and every other bow higher then wolfslayer and don santos) and they all lower the dps due to speed. Yet i see a ton of people with bristleblitz and every high end hunter has black bow. Is this primarily due to people having haste rating thats causing those bows to be better dps or is it just people wanting to use a rarer bow?

Lumi · 11/10/07, 10:26 PM

The spreadsheet models a situation where you stand still and shoot all day in a set rotation. It's not a good representation for most bosses/encounters.

Kierran · 11/10/07, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by intressepil

This means only 5% haste, or 78.85 haste rating (8.7% or 137 haste rating for a weapon with 3.0 speed. Does that check out?

Your math checks out. The discrepancy between our numbers (137 vs. 175) results from us solving slightly different problems. 137 haste is needed to bring a 3.0 bow down to 2.0 with quiver and SS. 175 haste is needed to bring a 3.0 bow with quiver and SS down to the same speed as a 2.7 bow with quiver and SS (i.e. 1.96 or so). So I'm happy to announce, we can both do arithmetic. Hooray!

Noah · 11/10/07, 11:06 PM

I plugged black bow of the betrayer (and every other bow higher then wolfslayer and don santos) and they all lower the dps due to speed. Yet i see a ton of people with bristleblitz and every high end hunter has black bow. Is this primarily due to people having haste rating thats causing those bows to be better dps or is it just people wanting to use a rarer bow?

What Lumi said. The spreadsheet is a model, a useful model, but it's still just theorycraft. "Perfect speed" weapons, are only superior if the dps range is relatively close, or if you're main weapon is freakishly slow or fast. I've owned my fair share, and currently use both [Bristleblitz Striker] and [Black Bow of the Betrayer], and they work for me because at the end of the day they do more damage in a raid setting (1800 dps on a non-gimmik fight isn't something I can do with an inferior weapon), and standing still for 20 minutes cycling steady/auto just doesn't happen outside of Camp Boom. The ~40 mp/5 from the Black Bow is more or less irreplaceable in mana demanding fights, and tips it over the edge as a raiding weapon of choice in my opinion.

intressepil · 11/10/07, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kierran

Your math checks out. The discrepancy between our numbers (137 vs. 175) results from us solving slightly different problems. 137 haste is needed to bring a 3.0 bow down to 2.0 with quiver and SS. 175 haste is needed to bring a 3.0 bow with quiver and SS down to the same speed as a 2.7 bow with quiver and SS (i.e. 1.96 or so). So I'm happy to announce, we can both do arithmetic. Hooray!

As much as I'd like to believe we're both right, it seems one of us has gotten something wrong. From how I understand you, you want to get a 3.0 weapon down to the same speed a 2.7 weapon shoots (with SS and quiver included). That's the thing I've modeled. I used the figure '2' instead of '1.96' simply because I rounded a bit. Maybe that was sloppy, but it should nowhere near account for the 38 haste rating difference. Your statements "137 haste is needed to bring a 3.0 bow down to 2.0" and "175 haste is needed to bring a 3.0 bow down to ... 1.96 or so" do not both work. This seems, to me at least, to be a mathematical fact.

trunghung · 11/12/07, 4:59 AM

Currently i have hourglass of the unraveller, bloodlust brooch and Dragonspine trophy, I was wondering what's the best combination for raiding? DST with hourglass or DST with bloodlust, with hourglass the best case scenario give me 3 possible procs (30seconds) every ~2min vs 1 proc (20 seconds) with brooch. Taking the crit bonus and pass AP from brooch, what's the general concensus on the best possible combination? thanks