So I've had a few nights in there to polish up my technique. Getting aggro, and leading them through the camps is becoming decidedly easier. Early frost trap, serpent sting, distracting shot, arcane shot, conc shot. Strafe, shoot, repeat. I am getting the ghoul/abomination to the camps no problem and the npc's jump in. Now, most of the time I manage to get the ghoul half way back to the area the tanks/aoe will occur, but (namely) the Tauren Warriors for Azgalor waves begin war stomping and the ghoul gives up on me. So, with taurens (and me) dps'ing the mob down, it goes down fast enough without npc loss, but here's the kicker: The tauren then turn around and go BACK to their camp. Only about half the time do they finish the kited mob and join in on the rest of the activity.
Our tanks/aoe is taking place up JUST behind the gate, is that the biggest reason the mobs are not joining in most of the time? Would it be better to have a warrior just do the kiting from the beginning and kite into the warriors and then back to the main area? It's growing more and more frustrating because I am not accomplishing the task of getting the extra npc dps to join in, and I am also not maximizing my own dps on the adds.
What else can be done to make sure the mobs finish the kited ghoul and then join the rest of the fight?
So I've had a few nights in there to polish up my technique. Getting aggro, and leading them through the camps is becoming decidedly easier. Early frost trap, serpent sting, distracting shot, arcane shot, conc shot. Strafe, shoot, repeat. I am getting the ghoul/abomination to the camps no problem and the npc's jump in. Now, most of the time I manage to get the ghoul half way back to the area the tanks/aoe will occur, but (namely) the Tauren Warriors for Azgalor waves begin war stomping and the ghoul gives up on me. So, with taurens (and me) dps'ing the mob down, it goes down fast enough without npc loss, but here's the kicker: The tauren then turn around and go BACK to their camp. Only about half the time do they finish the kited mob and join in on the rest of the activity.
Our tanks/aoe is taking place up JUST behind the gate, is that the biggest reason the mobs are not joining in most of the time? Would it be better to have a warrior just do the kiting from the beginning and kite into the warriors and then back to the main area? It's growing more and more frustrating because I am not accomplishing the task of getting the extra npc dps to join in, and I am also not maximizing my own dps on the adds.
What else can be done to make sure the mobs finish the kited ghoul and then join the rest of the fight?
Have the mob cycloned or just have the tanks aoe tank and drag them back to the warriors. Either one is good. Dragging the whole group and aoe'ing with the taurens chain stunning is safer for aoe, but abom's will kill warriors with their aura if you're not careful.
So here we go, assuming I get the best hunter gear from SSC/TK is survival build a good choice? And what survival talent tree is best for pve?
0/20/41 ? 7/20/34 ? (no master tactician, heard it sucks, and readyness isnt much of help in pve-raid)
I hope i can get some good feedbacks, thanks for the read, and forgive my english grammar errors.
Survival hunting in raids revolves almost solely around Expose Weakness (25% of hunter Agi converted to AP) With some good (epic) Agi gear and raid buffs you should be able to get ur Agi to 800+. 25% of 825 works our to be around 200AP... don't know a rogue or MS warrior who would turn that down. All in all you probably will not do as much dps as a similalry geared BM hunters, but you should stil be in 5-10 of the dps (usually i'm in the top 4).
For hard core raiding, 25 man that is, 7,20/34 is ur best bet as you get the best parts of Surv/MM and BM. Conventional 20/41 works well if you are still doing 10mans and the occasional heroic. True master tactician doesn't do much in the grand scheme of things, but the usefulness of Readiness is undeniable, especially for those mobs that resist traps, and as simple a thing as grabbing aggro off a boss when ur FD is down; just burn Readiness and retrap or FD, whichever the case might be. Used to be able to trap 2 mobs that way before 2.3, but Blizzard got liberal with the nerf bat again. Readiness also helps somewhat for PvP, especially arena, as you can always retrap a player when their Alliance trinket is on cooldown.
Oh, Master Tactician does help as it increases the hunter's chance to apply Expose Weakness (applied on hunter crit) to a mob - MT should push your %crit to abot 40-45% or better depeding on your base %crit. Also helps the hunter with ToTH as more crits on mana shots gives back more mana, but the effect is too shortlived (10s) to make a big difference overall to hunters' mana woes.
@Novacaine: You "just" have to adapt your strategy concerning pet from fight to fight. Of course you shouldn´t send it in at Leotheras, while he is in human-form. I just park it way off the raid to make sure it doesn´t get any whirlwinds, when he switches to demon-form you can go full out and also send your pet in. Don´t forget that dmg isn´t really relevant in human-form, most dps will come in the demon-phase, thus spare every cooldown and also your pet for this burst-phase.
Don´t forget to reskill your pet for each instance, also. This really is the biggest boost for a BM in terms of pet-survivability. Full shadow- and nature-resistance for SSC e.g. will make life a lot easier (normally, I don´t have to retreat the pet at any time during a Vashj-fight). Same goes for arcane and fire-resistance for TK.
However, the key is to adapt your pet-management to each fight. Knowing the bosses abilities is a thing of preparation and experience.
Oh, Master Tactician does help as it increases the hunter's chance to apply Expose Weakness (applied on hunter crit) to a mob - MT should push your %crit to abot 40-45% or better depeding on your base %crit. Also helps the hunter with ToTH as more crits on mana shots gives back more mana, but the effect is too shortlived (10s) to make a big difference overall to hunters' mana woes.
Once you get your crit above 35% or so (easy with Survival), increasing crit has a very miniscule effect on EW uptime.
So I've had a few nights in there to polish up my technique. Getting aggro, and leading them through the camps is becoming decidedly easier. Early frost trap, serpent sting, distracting shot, arcane shot, conc shot. Strafe, shoot, repeat. I am getting the ghoul/abomination to the camps no problem and the npc's jump in. Now, most of the time I manage to get the ghoul half way back to the area the tanks/aoe will occur, but (namely) the Tauren Warriors for Azgalor waves begin war stomping and the ghoul gives up on me. So, with taurens (and me) dps'ing the mob down, it goes down fast enough without npc loss, but here's the kicker: The tauren then turn around and go BACK to their camp. Only about half the time do they finish the kited mob and join in on the rest of the activity.
Our tanks/aoe is taking place up JUST behind the gate, is that the biggest reason the mobs are not joining in most of the time? Would it be better to have a warrior just do the kiting from the beginning and kite into the warriors and then back to the main area? It's growing more and more frustrating because I am not accomplishing the task of getting the extra npc dps to join in, and I am also not maximizing my own dps on the adds.
What else can be done to make sure the mobs finish the kited ghoul and then join the rest of the fight?
For the Horde camp we only kite aboms. During those waves, two are marked. One hunter kites to the tauren and one kites to Thrall. The Tauren can tank/finish an abom easy. The hunter kiting to Thrall needs to keep the abom on them so Thrall's guards stay alive. When I'm kiting to Thrall I usually take the abom right past thrall, then up behind the taruen up to the trolls.
Everything else is tanked/AEd out by the gate.
For the human camp another hunter (usually Monco) just picks a ghoul that has been in our paladin tank's consecrate for a few ticks and pulls that one off. That way he has a pretty good aggro lead before the ghoul even starts his way and a much bigger one once the NPCs join in. (At least this is what I think he is doing, from what I have observed.)
Don´t forget to reskill your pet for each instance, also. This really is the biggest boost for a BM in terms of pet-survivability. Full shadow- and nature-resistance for SSC e.g. will make life a lot easier (normally, I don´t have to retreat the pet at any time during a Vashj-fight). Same goes for arcane and fire-resistance for TK.
Shadow in SSC? The only resistance I used to spec the pet in was Nature in SSC, especially since pets became immune to Lurker's Spout. I can't recall any fight in SSC where Shadow resistance would be useful.
I can't recall any fight in SSC where Shadow resistance would be useful.
I specced my boar shadow res back when it was possible for him to grab aggro on the Inner Demons - a quick charge and growl and the demon stuck on him - but since that possibility was removed I can't think of any fight where shadow res is useful.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Igor, help me with the bags.
Igor: Soitenly. You take the blonde, I'll take the one in the turban.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: I was talking about the luggage.
Shadow is quite useful on the trashmobs if I remember correctly. It´s also possible that I messed up something, you could also take frost in SSC. And no, shadow won´t be useful on any particular bossfight, but trashmobs can also be painful.
It's been a while since I had time to read this thread. I must say you keep up very good job. Ok official part done With my current gear Drrakkainen I've been having fun as BM, depending on fight pushing 800-1100 dps (my best score so far is this guild pug ZA run
I have very precise question
Since we (hunters) don't get that many upgrades (especially when you don't raid hardcore) I was thinking about new Ignore Armour items, my first idea was to change bracers to those for heroic badges [Steadying Bracers] that for about 0.7% crit would put me a bit above 200 ignore armour (I'm using arena OP AXE atm) all the time. For other ignore armour items I have problem with replacing hit rating I'll lose and counting loss of like 1% hit always result in keeping hit capped.
Any ideas? Others comments welcome
Survival hunting in raids revolves almost solely around Expose Weakness (25% of hunter Agi converted to AP) With some good (epic) Agi gear and raid buffs you should be able to get ur Agi to 800+. 25% of 825 works our to be around 200AP... don't know a rogue or MS warrior who would turn that down. All in all you probably will not do as much dps as a similalry geared BM hunters, but you should stil be in 5-10 of the dps (usually i'm in the top 4).
For hard core raiding, 25 man that is, 7,20/34 is ur best bet as you get the best parts of Surv/MM and BM. Conventional 20/41 works well if you are still doing 10mans and the occasional heroic. True master tactician does do much in the grand scheme of things, but the usefulness of Readiness is undeniable, especially for those mobs that resist traps, and as simple a thing as grabbing aggro off a boss when ur FD is down; just burn Readiness and retrap or FD, whichever the case might be. Used to be able to trap 2 mobs that way before 2.3, but Blizzard got liberal with the nerf bat again. Readiness also helps somewhat for PvP, especially arena, as you can always retrap a player when their Alliance trinket is on cooldown.
Oh, Master Tactician does help as it increases the hunter's chance to apply Expose Weakness (applied on hunter crit) to a mob - MT should push your %crit to abot 40-45% or better depeding on your base %crit. Also helps the hunter with ToTH as more crits on mana shots gives back more mana, but the effect is too shortlived (10s) to make a big difference overall to hunters' mana woes.
Thanks for the advices, I'll keep em in mind. I don't plan doing pvp, because I find it to be pretty boring, so I'll probably stick to a 7/20/34 build. By the way on that build do you use 3/3 expose weakness and leave 1/3 on thrill of the hunt?
Originally Posted by Thorongil
@Novacaine: You "just" have to adapt your strategy concerning pet from fight to fight. Of course you shouldn´t send it in at Leotheras, while he is in human-form. I just park it way off the raid to make sure it doesn´t get any whirlwinds, when he switches to demon-form you can go full out and also send your pet in. Don´t forget that dmg isn´t really relevant in human-form, most dps will come in the demon-phase, thus spare every cooldown and also your pet for this burst-phase.
Don´t forget to reskill your pet for each instance, also. This really is the biggest boost for a BM in terms of pet-survivability. Full shadow- and nature-resistance for SSC e.g. will make life a lot easier (normally, I don´t have to retreat the pet at any time during a Vashj-fight). Same goes for arcane and fire-resistance for TK.
However, the key is to adapt your pet-management to each fight. Knowing the bosses abilities is a thing of preparation and experience.
That's what I usually do, I don't bother to send the pet to "human leotheras" and send it to him while he's in demon form, popping all together my trinkets/cooldowns.
Originally Posted by Cheeky
Greater variance in damage output comes from skill in managing your shot rotation than gear or spec. If you could link a few WWS parses we should be able to see if that's where your problem lies. Once you get your shot rotation down (for your spec) it becomes a lot easier to optimize gear selection.
Your progression is identical to what my guild is doing (5/6, 3/4). I can provide all our WWS logs for those fights if you'd like to see how I manage things. (I'm not the best Hunter in these forums, but I think my DPS output is satisfactory.)
Ok so far here's the log of my fight against solarian, right yesterday:
My armory doesn't seem to be updated still (changed sunfury bow with wolfslayer, ranger-general chest is now in, also with ring of lethality).
As you can see I couldnt pull my dps much. I have to be honest, I forgot to respec the pet to arcane resistance, and he died at least 3 times during the fight, so i might have suffered that a bit.
My armory doesn't seem to be updated still (changed sunfury bow with wolfslayer, ranger-general chest is now in, also with ring of lethality).
As you can see I couldnt pull my dps much. I have to be honest, I forgot to respec the pet to arcane resistance, and he died at least 3 times during the fight, so i might have suffered that a bit.
You raid The Eye with 19 people? Your 3 healers must be incredible.
Besides Serpent Sting and pet ineffectiveness, your shot rotation seems fine. Normally I don't worry about the AE adds, and I spend that time regenerating mana. Here is the WWS of our last Solarian kill (and second ever). My shots are hitting quite a bit harder than yours, and my pet is actually contributing, but the shot rotation is pretty similar (and I had lots of mana coming in.)
Staying out of Viper by not dropping the Volley and Explosive traps will help. That 13K damage you kicked in is just a single Seed of Corruption. You're better off managing your mana to allow you to sub in more Arcane/Multi (especially Multi with Priests up, and you hit both of them.) If your pet had the right resistances you probably would be over 1100 on that fight.
Thanks for the advices, I'll keep em in mind. I don't plan doing pvp, because I find it to be pretty boring, so I'll probably stick to a 7/20/34 build. By the way on that build do you use 3/3 expose weakness and leave 1/3 on thrill of the hunt?
Actually if you have 30+% crit unbuffed you can do 2/3 EW and 2/3 ToTH, but that is only if you are having serious mana woes. 30% crit or better with 2/3 EW should see you having it up almost 90% of the time (i actually tried this and found that it was very rare that EW was not up on a mob). If you are sure of mana regen and chain chugging mana pots then stick with 3/3 EW and 1/3 ToTH. Switching between AoTH and AoTV drops your dps somewhat, but greatly helps keeping the mana pool going, and since it will not affect your stats you could always go 3/3 EW and use the 1 talent point from ToTH and put it elsewhere.
You raid The Eye with 19 people? Your 3 healers must be incredible.
Besides Serpent Sting and pet ineffectiveness, your shot rotation seems fine. Normally I don't worry about the AE adds, and I spend that time regenerating mana. Here is the WWS of our last Solarian kill (and second ever). My shots are hitting quite a bit harder than yours, and my pet is actually contributing, but the shot rotation is pretty similar (and I had lots of mana coming in.)
Staying out of Viper by not dropping the Volley and Explosive traps will help. That 13K damage you kicked in is just a single Seed of Corruption. You're better off managing your mana to allow you to sub in more Arcane/Multi (especially Multi with Priests up, and you hit both of them.) If your pet had the right resistances you probably would be over 1100 on that fight.
I think I should extend the combat log over the default limit in order to track everyone. I guess that's why you could see just 19 players. As for the "add phase" you're right about the traps and volleys, I shouldn't be using them at all.
Now my major concern is about switching to auto-shot / steady-shot rotation and auto-shot/multi/arcane/steady rotation. Basically what I do is go for autoshot-steadyshot until I have my cooldowns up. Whenever The Beast Within is up, I trigger my trinkets, rapid fire, and start a more complex rotation using arcane shot, multishot and steadyshot. I keep doing this the whole part of the fight. If there's the need to stop dps, I usually switch to Aspect of the Viper in order to regenerate some mana while I'm not shooting, then I switch back to AotH and restart dps.
I took a look at different Raid Reports of yours and noticed that you, and your hunter teammate are usually on the top dps slots, and your dps is overall much higher than mine. (You provide 30% more damage than me). What am I missing? Should I use multi/arcane rotations more?
Originally Posted by Talrunya
Actually if you have 30+% crit unbuffed you can do 2/3 EW and 2/3 ToTH, but that is only if you are having serious mana woes. 30% crit or better with 2/3 EW should see you having it up almost 90% of the time (i actually tried this and found that it was very rare that EW was not up on a mob). If you are sure of mana regen and chain chugging mana pots then stick with 3/3 EW and 1/3 ToTH. Switching between AoTH and AoTV drops your dps somewhat, but greatly helps keeping the mana pool going, and since it will not affect your stats you could always go 3/3 EW and use the 1 talent point from ToTH and put it elsewhere.
WTB feign death and drink - 50g
Actually our raid setup does not allow hunters to be partied along with shadow priests. That means that any hunter not in BM spec is going to suffer serious mana issues. That's why I'm concerned about thrill of the hunt and expose weakness.
Expose weakness must be always up (min. 95% of the fight), if you cant guarantee that there's no point going survival. Thrill of the Hunt is a nice talent for survival hunters, it allows them to not run out of mana too fast. Considering a raid setup like the one done by my guild, I would hardly sacrifice it, despite the fact spending 7 points for Improved Aspect of the hawk and Focused fire would be great.
Hello I was wondering if there is a mod or addon of some sort that I can use to create a Raid warning saying that my trap has been resisted. It does happen occasionally and its very annoying to have a tank not take any notice and me trying to deal with the mob that has resisted the trap. It would be a lot easier if the tank was aware when this happens without having to try and type it out.
I can't help you with the mod, but if you're going to be serious about raiding you need to use vent and a microphone. I assume you're having trouble with Moroes or perhaps Malacross. In a larger 25 man you calling out a resist on vent might be frowned on in some guilds, but in a 10 man, that is by far the favored warning I'd imagine.
I think I should extend the combat log over the default limit in order to track everyone. I guess that's why you could see just 19 players. As for the "add phase" you're right about the traps and volleys, I shouldn't be using them at all.
Now my major concern is about switching to auto-shot / steady-shot rotation and auto-shot/multi/arcane/steady rotation. Basically what I do is go for autoshot-steadyshot until I have my cooldowns up. Whenever The Beast Within is up, I trigger my trinkets, rapid fire, and start a more complex rotation using arcane shot, multishot and steadyshot. I keep doing this the whole part of the fight. If there's the need to stop dps, I usually switch to Aspect of the Viper in order to regenerate some mana while I'm not shooting, then I switch back to AotH and restart dps.
I took a look at different Raid Reports of yours and noticed that you, and your hunter teammate are usually on the top dps slots, and your dps is overall much higher than mine. (You provide 30% more damage than me). What am I missing? Should I use multi/arcane rotations more?
Sounds like you have the right idea about managing your cooldowns, but with TBW on a 2 minute cycle, you can take more advantage of the extra damage Arcane and Multi do. Their extra damage is marginal over Steady Shot, so it comes down to how much extra mana you have around to convert into damage.
Orcis and I get a group of us, a Survival Hunter, Feral Druid, and Shaman (usually Resto). Pretty much an ideal Hunter group setup. The biggest difference between us might be shot cycle length. I cannot access Armory from work to check your gear, I use the [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] and no haste effects but quiver, IAotH, and Serpent's Swiftness. I've practiced 10,000+ shots at Dr. Boom to get my timing down so I have few clips/clobbers. That might account for the differences between us. Havoc's main DPS is always Hunters + whatever class favors that fight. So we get pretty good support (Ret Paladin, Boomkin Druid, Survival Hunter) even outside the ILotP and SoE/GoA/MT totems.
Hey guys, I was just hoping for a quick favor. My guild has had VR, Lurker, and Tidewalker on farm in TK/SSC and as far as I know, I have almost every gear upgrade available to me. I'm working on Bloodlust Brooch right now, but does anyone see any upgrades I've missed in the content my guild has covered thus far? Thanks in advance!
Yes, i have Vent and a Mic and raids are not the problem, I am talking about PUG groups in instances and most importantly, heroics.
I see. I normally vent for those too, but a resist at that point is where I'd stun, wing clip and just start kiting for the most part. You can let it come back when the tank is good and ready.
Sounds like you have the right idea about managing your cooldowns, but with TBW on a 2 minute cycle, you can take more advantage of the extra damage Arcane and Multi do. Their extra damage is marginal over Steady Shot, so it comes down to how much extra mana you have around to convert into damage.
Orcis and I get a group of us, a Survival Hunter, Feral Druid, and Shaman (usually Resto). Pretty much an ideal Hunter group setup. The biggest difference between us might be shot cycle length. I cannot access Armory from work to check your gear, I use the [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] and no haste effects but quiver, IAotH, and Serpent's Swiftness. I've practiced 10,000+ shots at Dr. Boom to get my timing down so I have few clips/clobbers. That might account for the differences between us. Havoc's main DPS is always Hunters + whatever class favors that fight. So we get pretty good support (Ret Paladin, Boomkin Druid, Survival Hunter) even outside the ILotP and SoE/GoA/MT totems.
As for the first part, depending on the lenght of the fight and mana pool I have, I switch to arcane/multi rotations. For example If i have enough mana and the boss is at 20% or something like that, I usually go for a more "mana-consuming" rotation like arcane/multi.
Difference could stand in the different raid setup. I wish I could have one like yours! As for the shot cycle lenght, it's the same as mine. Wolfslayer sniper rifle along with the 15% pouch and serpent swiftness and no haste gear.
I see. I normally vent for those too, but a resist at that point is where I'd stun, wing clip and just start kiting for the most part. You can let it come back when the tank is good and ready.
Yes I am aware of this I was just simply wondering if there was something I could use to have this raid warning occur so it makes it a lot easier for me and of course the tank, so they know to get the trap before sheep etc, or if the tank is not so good, which seems to be occuring a lot more since the lowering of revered to honoured reputation requirement for heroic keys since patch.
I prefer playing a MM hunter, and by using a good shot rotation, I do strong DPS. However, I do respec to BM when I feel that the guild needs a little bump in DPS. Yet I am wondering now with the new changes to Arcane Shot coming with the patch if MM may not be even closer to BM. I am talking about how Arcane shot now scales with attack power.
I prefer playing a MM hunter, and by using a good shot rotation, I do strong DPS. However, I do respec to BM when I feel that the guild needs a little bump in DPS. Yet I am wondering now with the new changes to Arcane Shot coming with the patch if MM may not be even closer to BM. I am talking about how Arcane shot now scales with attack power.
Thoughts?
If I read the patch notes correctly, the +AP buff to Arcane Shot is just for ranks 1-5. Unless you downrank, this will have zero impact.
12/10/07, 4:42 PM
The only resistance I used to spec the pet in was Nature in SSC, especially since pets became immune to Lurker's Spout. I can't recall any fight in SSC where Shadow resistance would be useful.
With my current gear Drrakkainen I've been having fun as BM, depending on fight pushing 800-1100 dps (my best score so far is this guild pug ZA run 
