I am confused about that part of the patch, is that Blizzard removing the down ranking penalty they instilled into Arcane Shot or was there some ulterior bug?
I am confused about that part of the patch, is that Blizzard removing the down ranking penalty they instilled into Arcane Shot or was there some ulterior bug?
It would appear that you are absolutely correct. Blizzard probably realized that the penalty to down ranked arcane shots had a negative impact on leveling 1-60 and that goes against most of what they've been changing in recent patches. This change will not allow higher maxium DPS as it does not effect the highest rank of arcane shot, but it might allow for higher DPM and therefore higher DPS over extended periods of time.
Last edited by Kamaa : 12/11/07 at 3:14 PM.
Reason: Additional sentence.
So I've had a few nights in there to polish up my technique. Getting aggro, and leading them through the camps is becoming decidedly easier. Early frost trap, serpent sting, distracting shot, arcane shot, conc shot. Strafe, shoot, repeat. I am getting the ghoul/abomination to the camps no problem and the npc's jump in. Now, most of the time I manage to get the ghoul half way back to the area the tanks/aoe will occur, but (namely) the Tauren Warriors for Azgalor waves begin war stomping and the ghoul gives up on me. So, with taurens (and me) dps'ing the mob down, it goes down fast enough without npc loss, but here's the kicker: The tauren then turn around and go BACK to their camp. Only about half the time do they finish the kited mob and join in on the rest of the activity.
Our tanks/aoe is taking place up JUST behind the gate, is that the biggest reason the mobs are not joining in most of the time? Would it be better to have a warrior just do the kiting from the beginning and kite into the warriors and then back to the main area? It's growing more and more frustrating because I am not accomplishing the task of getting the extra npc dps to join in, and I am also not maximizing my own dps on the adds.
What else can be done to make sure the mobs finish the kited ghoul and then join the rest of the fight?
I think the answer to this is just to take advantage of the mobs threat list. The trick is to get 2 mobs on the taurens threat list. If a first hunter kites the mob to the Taurens, and they start beating on him, stunning him, and possibly pulling aggro off the kiter, then the second hunter has to simply kite the second mob right by where the Taurens are killing the first. This way the Taurens have more than one mob on their threat list and once that first Abom or Ghoul is dead, they'll charge after the second one, which the second hunter has now kited back to the tanks at the gate. When the tauren reset after that first mob is killed like you described, I think it's only because they haven't "seen" a second mob.
It would appear that you are absolutely correct. Blizzard probably realized that the penalty to down ranked arcane shots had a negative impact on leveling 1-60 and that goes against most of what they've been changing in recent patches. This change will not allow higher maxium DPS as it does not effect the highest rank of arcane shot, but it might allow for higher DPM and therefore higher DPS over extended periods of time.
Actually, if I understand it correctly, it is a bug fix.
# Arcane Shot: Ranks 1-5 will once again deal bonus damage based on attack power.
Basically, ranks 1-5 Arcane Shot was bugged to not have attack power scaling in 2.3, not even with downranking penalty. This hurts 1-60 hunters because they had weakened Aimed Shot and Arcane Shot.
I'm pretty sure downranking penalty is here to stay. And yes, I used rank 1 Multi and rank 1 Arcane in AV right when 2.0 was released, and held off a full 40-horde premade (yes, all 40 of them from the same realm) for an hour.
I've been attempting to get into my guild's raiding class, but seems I am being told to basically become a BM hunter which I don't want to do. Right now I am a hybrid MM/Surv hunter, currently 0/31/30. Without any food or elixirs buffs on I sit at 1911 RAP and 30.66% critical strike chance, with 121 HR. With a warper burger in my gut and an Elixir of Major Agility on I sit at 2011 RAP and 33.3% chance to crit, which I tend to think is pretty good.
Couple other things. I tend to use Aspect of the Viper instead of Aspect of the Hawk, I admit I'm a mana whore and abuse it so I tend to think Viper is better for me then Hawk. The way my shot rotation works, Steady > Auto > Arcane > Auto > Steady > Auto > Multi > Auto > Second Verse Same As The First, is pretty mana intensive and pretty much requires me to have Viper on.
This is the Webstats from a semi-recent Gruul/TK run the guild has done. Please note I was not using any buff food or elixir for this fight run, something I am changing now (yay for farming!). Algalzoth - WWS
This is my armory page. For some reason it's not updating with my new boots, the Fiend Slayer Boots but that only gives me a little bit of a boost. The World of Warcraft Armory
So, please any suggestions would be taken and I want to thank you before hand for any help.
I've been attempting to get into my guild's raiding class, but seems I am being told to basically become a BM hunter which I don't want to do. Right now I am a hybrid MM/Surv hunter, currently 0/31/30.
Ummmm, yeah. You go far enough into both trees to not pick up any of the truly useful talents. Adding 3 talent points to Expose Weakness would at least partially justify bringing you along, otherwise you just bring sub-par dps. Picking up EW would trade 125 Ap for your group for 156 AP for the entire raid.
As much as I loved playing a MM hunter, its performance at lower gear levels just didn't make a compelling case for bringing me along. I specced to BM to help my raids succeed, and since doing so have been the top-dps in every raid I've attended. Going past Gruul you really need to weight your raid's needs against your personal preferences- sure, you might like xx/xx/xx spec, but if it doesn't provide any utility or overwhelming dps then you're easily replaced.
After many checks using Cheeky's spreadsheet, I clearly need to use a 1:1.5 rotation in order to max out my damage output. I would usually go 1:1 with multi and stead when up, always making sure to let a auto release in between. I recently changed my 2.8 speed Steelhawk to the 3.0 speed Ancient Sin'dorei Longbow. Last night I worked on squeezing a multi or arcane next to a steady and it didn't work out to well for me. maybe I was too used to 1:1, or maybe my clicking was not fast enough. Yes I am a clicker.
I have been looking into the /castsequence macros and have yet to find one that works. I would like to get one going for the shot rotation listed in the spreadsheet for 1:1.5.
Is there a working macro for the following rotation?
I know that blizz is working on these type of macro because of the autoshot change. Something about placing a "!" in front of the auto shot to keep it from toggling. Are all these macros broken until they make this change? Does anyone know what the new macro would look like after the patch?
I've tested an even simpler version (Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady) and it tends to lock up / halt / generally not work flawlessly like it did in 2.2. So I don't think there is a working macro for that rotation.
I've been using a base shot rotation macro with key modifiers for special shots. It's not anal-retentively perfect at eliminating auto shot pushback (and you need good latency) but it allows for on-the-fly shot rotation modification:
By itself it's a 1:1 rotation, so you can use that when under temp. haste effects (heroism, bloodlust, rapid fire, etc.). Hold down the relevant modifier key to add that special shot to your rotation. Start holding it during the cast time of the Steady Shot immediately before when you want to thread the special, then release once the special is fired (you can use the Quartz latency monitor to know when to release, similar to /stopcasting macros pre 2.3). You can swap the order of the /cast and /castsequence to get tighter timing, but I prefer it this way as I can hold down the modifier and hit the macro once to get the corresponding special, eliminating the need to have them on a separate button for single use.
The macro that I actually use is more complex (also has stings, Kill Command, Lightning Breath), but this gives you a general idea of the concept behind a modifier key rotation. I prefer this macro since it has built-in flexibility. Best used when bound to your mousewheel.
Huh. Dorking around with the spreadsheet, if I went with a 19/41/0 build I'd have a total of 826.02 total DPS, 687.83 from myself and 138.19 from my pet. Gonna keep playing with. If I went with the build of my hunter class leader's build, I'd have 828.82 total DPS, 660.66 from myself and 168.16 from my pet. If I went with Lucrezia's build, I'll get 832.70 total DPS, 660.66 from myself, and 172.04 from my pet.
Quick question, though. How do you folks deal with your shot rotation? Just macro the heck out of it so it's a one button thing or what?
Quick question, though. How do you folks deal with your shot rotation? Just macro the heck out of it so it's a one button thing or what?
There seem to be 2 ways to handle a shot rotation - /castsequence macro and hand timing. I'd encourage you to try both and see what works best for you.
Laif I would steal and copyright your macro, but my shot button is linked to shift-1 and I feel more comfortable spamming 1 as a melee macro. Could the shift be replaced with alt and do you know if ctrl works if I'm already pressing shift to use the macro?
So, I'm thinking... I see a lot of builds with 2/3 EW. And I crit alot so I can follow the idea of not needing 100%. But why stop there? Why not put 1 in EW and 1 in ToTH? Is there some fundamental issue I am missing here? Maybe I've been spoiled with 2 and 3/3 EW, but 33% of the time should occur often enough.
I have been reading these forums for a couple of months and I have learned a great deal about my hunter, thank you. Our guild is working mostly in SSC, we have killed Hydross, Lurker & Tidewalker.
I have done about all I can think of to do at this point to increase my dps.
Here is what I am aiming for in the near future:
1. Upgrade my sunfury bow to Wolf Sniper Rifle (Yes I am BM hunter).
2. Void Reaver's pants.
3. changing some gems around now that I have Hydross chest piece.
I could use some advice on my shots, macros and pet.
One easy optimization is to remove this. You should sync your Rapid Fire with Bloodlust Brooch and other DPS trinkets/procs for maximum effectiveness. Make a separate "I win" macro to pop Rapid Fire along with trinkets.
Laif I would steal and copyright your macro, but my shot button is linked to shift-1 and I feel more comfortable spamming 1 as a melee macro. Could the shift be replaced with alt and do you know if ctrl works if I'm already pressing shift to use the macro?
So, I'm thinking... I see a lot of builds with 2/3 EW. And I crit alot so I can follow the idea of not needing 100%. But why stop there? Why not put 1 in EW and 1 in ToTH? Is there some fundamental issue I am missing here? Maybe I've been spoiled with 2 and 3/3 EW, but 33% of the time should occur often enough.
Don't know if you can have multiple modifier keys held down at once, but I'd imagine that it would be a giant pain in the ass (fingers?) to do that all the time.
I use mousewheel down for shot rotation and mousewheel up for melee. I use ALT modifier for a sting, editing the macro depending on the situation I'm in (PvP, trash, boss, etc.). All in all, I think I have about 18 skills available from just my mousewheel and 2 mouse thumb buttons along with modifier keys (Shift, CTRL, ALT). I've set up 5 "action type" macros that use different related skills based on what modifier key I have held.
Mousewheel up - Melee - wing clip, raptor strike, Aspect of the Monkey, Deterrence, Mongoose Bite, Disengage
Mousewheel down - Shot Rotation - Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot, a sting, Kill Command, Bite, Lightning Breath
Mousewheel press - Movement - flying mount, ground mount, aspect of the cheetah, aspect of the pack, equip/unequip riding crop
Mouse Thumb 1 - Pet - pet attack, pet recall, pet stay, pet follow
Mouse Thumb 2 - Utility - Misdirection, Hunter's Mark, set focus, Aspect of the Hawk, Aspect of the Viper
It was complicated to set up & streamline, but now that it works my screen has a lot less button clutter and I have a lot faster access to abilities than if they were all on individual keybinds.
I'm sorry if this has been discussed in larger detail within this thread, but I'm the ranged class officer for my guild and one of my hunters has respecced to a MM/Survival build claiming that its buff to melee DPS through Expose Weakness, which to the melee DPS in my guild has not been noticed, is greater than this hunter's loss in personal DPS, which everyone has noticed.
Personally, I don't feel like the loss of this hunter's DPS is being made up for by his buff to melee DPS/tank threat gen. When I asked for some reasoning he couldn't provide me with any hard numbers, and he refuses to use this site, claiming "he can think of stuff on his own." My question to the hunter community is whether or not he's actually benefiting our raid group as MM/Survival and if not, would the raid be better off if he was BM? At maximum physical DPS capacity we would be running with 5 melee, 3 hunters, and three or four tanks.
I'm sorry if this has been discussed in larger detail within this thread, but I'm the ranged class officer for my guild and one of my hunters has respecced to a MM/Survival build claiming that its buff to melee DPS through Expose Weakness, which to the melee DPS in my guild has not been noticed, is greater than this hunter's loss in personal DPS, which everyone has noticed.
Personally, I don't feel like the loss of this hunter's DPS is being made up for by his buff to melee DPS/tank threat gen. When I asked for some reasoning he couldn't provide me with any hard numbers, and he refuses to use this site, claiming "he can think of stuff on his own." My question to the hunter community is whether or not he's actually benefiting our raid group as MM/Survival and if not, would the raid be better off if he was BM? At maximum physical DPS capacity we would be running with 5 melee, 3 hunters, and three or four tanks.
I play fighting games, but can't do all that with one hand. Though I should level an alt and learn how to mouse control. Then I can hit alt+Z and fight in uncluttered beauty.
But lemme get this straight, by pressing the wheel down you have it set to auto mount/cheetah you? Does dismounting work the same or do you choose to do an attack *like I do* to dismount.
Don't sign your posts. Kaubel doesn't like it, and you don't want Kaubel mad at you.
Looking at your Lurker kill:
#1 - Keep your pet alive. Lurker is tauntable, the OT should be picking him up if the MT get booted.
#2 - If you have the [Dragonspine Trophy] stick with the Sunfury.
#3 - If you have the mana, use more Arcane and Multi-Shots, they do more damage than the Steady they will be replacing.
In general, not too bad. If you pet lives you should easily be over 1K DPS for this fight. I see no real group buffs, what were you grouped with? Feral Druids, Shaman, and other BM Hunters will help out a ton.
I'm sorry if this has been discussed in larger detail within this thread, but I'm the ranged class officer for my guild and one of my hunters has respecced to a MM/Survival build claiming that its buff to melee DPS through Expose Weakness, which to the melee DPS in my guild has not been noticed, is greater than this hunter's loss in personal DPS, which everyone has noticed.
Personally, I don't feel like the loss of this hunter's DPS is being made up for by his buff to melee DPS/tank threat gen. When I asked for some reasoning he couldn't provide me with any hard numbers, and he refuses to use this site, claiming "he can think of stuff on his own." My question to the hunter community is whether or not he's actually benefiting our raid group as MM/Survival and if not, would the raid be better off if he was BM? At maximum physical DPS capacity we would be running with 5 melee, 3 hunters, and three or four tanks.
Yes, it's worth it. He has 823 agility, that will be around 950 with Kings/MOTW, and about 1050 with pots. Not sure if you give your hunters GoA, but even without it that's ~250 raid-wide AP. This translates to about 70 DPS for most melee classes. Even with only a handful of melee that is more than worth the loss in personal DPS. If you want to get more concrete numbers on how much it contributes you can download rogue/fury warrior spreadsheets to see how much DPS they get from AP, but about .3 DPS for 1 attack power is a reasonable approximation.
I play fighting games, but can't do all that with one hand. Though I should level an alt and learn how to mouse control. Then I can hit alt+Z and fight in uncluttered beauty.
But lemme get this straight, by pressing the wheel down you have it set to auto mount/cheetah you? Does dismounting work the same or do you choose to do an attack *like I do* to dismount.
/equip [nomounted,nomodifier] Riding Crop; [mounted] Replaced Trinket
/cast [modifier:shift] Aspect of the Cheetah; [modifier:alt] Aspect of the Pack; [nomounted,flyable] Reins of the Flying Mount; [nomounted] Reins of the Ground Mount
/dismount [mounted]
Macro bound to mousewheel click.
Hold down Shift & press mousewheel for Aspect of the Cheetah. Will dismount & re-equip regular trinket if mounted and does not equip Riding Crop.
Hold down ALT & press mousewheel for Aspect of the Pack. Will dismount & re-equip regular trinket if mounted and does not equip Riding Crop.
Press mousewheel while not mounted in Outlands to equip riding crop & mount flying mount.
Press mousewheel while not mounted in Azeroth to equip riding crop & mount ground mount.
Press mousewheel while mounted to re-equip your regular trinket & dismount.
Other macros work similarly, making use of /castsequences and macro modifiers like [help] [harm] [target=focus] etc.
I'm sorry if this has been discussed in larger detail within this thread, but I'm the ranged class officer for my guild and one of my hunters has respecced to a MM/Survival build claiming that its buff to melee DPS through Expose Weakness, which to the melee DPS in my guild has not been noticed, is greater than this hunter's loss in personal DPS, which everyone has noticed.
Personally, I don't feel like the loss of this hunter's DPS is being made up for by his buff to melee DPS/tank threat gen. When I asked for some reasoning he couldn't provide me with any hard numbers, and he refuses to use this site, claiming "he can think of stuff on his own." My question to the hunter community is whether or not he's actually benefiting our raid group as MM/Survival and if not, would the raid be better off if he was BM? At maximum physical DPS capacity we would be running with 5 melee, 3 hunters, and three or four tanks.
To get a more accurate answer to your "is it worth it" question, there is some additional information which would be helpful:
1. Does your Survival hunter always have +20 AGI food and an Elixir of Major Agility on while raiding?
2. Which of the following buffs does he get:
- Blessing of Kings
- Improved Leader of the Pack (feral druid in group)
- Grace of Air totem (shaman in group)
- Ferocious Inspiration (BM hunter in group)
As always, group composition can play a vital part in whether certain talent builds work great or poorly. If you're going to run with an SV hunter, I think you should definitely consider stacking his group for maximum benefit.
3. Do any of your BM hunters have Improved Hunter's Mark? This is an extra 110 AP for the melee classes; normally the Expose Weakness martyr picks up this talent and the BM hunters don't.
4. As a continuation of #2 - what are his Agility/Crit% when he's fully raid buffed?
5. Is your DPS often threat capped? Allowing tanks to generate more threat is great, but only useful if your DPS is forced to otherwise hold back.
6. Assuming best-case scenario, which is that EW is always up, how much DPS gain is it for your melee? If I recall correctly, it's approximately 14 AP = 1 DPS for hunters but I'm not sure what the numbers are for rogues/DPS warriors/feral druids in catform. Tinuvian's base AGI of 823 will translate to ~205 AP for all physical DPS (this is NOT raid buffed, or buffed at all) plus an additional 110 AP for the melee (the 110 works for pets too). I'd bet that your melee DPS guys can tell you how much of a gain Tinuvian is providing.
7. How much DPS has Tinuvian lost by going MM/SV instead of BM?
There seem to be 2 ways to handle a shot rotation - /castsequence macro and hand timing. I'd encourage you to try both and see what works best for you.
You can put up very good DPS with either.
Thankee. I'm going to have look over macros. I really suck hard at making them, so I gotta find someone that works for me. I've been looking at a 1:1.5 shot rotation since the spreadsheet says I can put out 715 sustained DPS.
Personally, I'm a big fan of the good old fashioned manual weaving, and as such i hate macros. However, I often find myself skipping autoshots late in the raid, so I tried using the very basic /castsequence reset=3 steady shot, auto shot macro, without any other additional line, and it works rather well with my 1:1.5 rotation. Plus, it allows me to get some satisfaction by timing multi and arcane shots manually, with the help of Quartz cast and swing bars. It makes thing soooo much simpler. The downside is it's not really 'button mash' friendly, since the error messages are annoying. Which is exactly why I keep them, to stop me from spamming a single button.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
12/11/07, 3:00 PM
