eMark:
The only thing I''ll say about that is that the melee folks hate listening to a screeching bat/bird.

FI- 3% increased damage to party members.

So let's assume all 5 party members are doing 1200dps. (assumption based on looking at your guild progression via wowjutsu)

1200dps*5*3%= 180 dps contribution from FI.

EW- Agility/4 = AP to RAID members. Of which, you've said 7-8 will benefit, including the 2 tanks.

1105/4 = 276 Attack Power

Using the conservative value for the consensus thumbrule of .2 dps per AP posted elsewhere on these boards:

276 AP * .2dps/AP * 6 raiders = 331 dps contribution from EW.

That totally neglects the added benefit of the AP to tank aggro generation and their dps.

The percentage of time the procs are up is nitpicking, IMO. But, let's keep in mind that as a SV hunter, your crit %, and therfore your proc uptime should be HIGHER than your BM counterparts, and what you yourself would provide as a BM.

I've purposefully overestimated the BM (FI) side while underestimating the SV (EW) side of my calculations to highlight the disparity between the debuffs. The downside being Expose Weakness does not stack whereas FI does.

However, I hope I've shown by your staying SV the raid stands to benefit ~250dps, probably more.

Thanks for the info. I probably under reported the amount of Physical DPS in the raid.

I had forgot about our Ret pally and enchance shaman and lock pet, and hunter pets.

looking it over we probably have 11-12 "things" that would be considered Physical.

I was under the impression that it took about 14 AP to equal 1 additional dps (at least on white damage w/o figuring in haste etc.) *If* it's 14 AP/1 dps then the 1105 agi would only yield around 118 raid dps. I'm not sure where exactly I got the 14/1 rule from, but it was somewhere in a EJ hunter forum. Which is more correct? I'd been using this number in deciding when to bring in a SV hunter or not. If it is 5 AP/1 dps, I'll have to rethink that a bit.

Putting your pet on the doomguards is far easier than the "pretty easy" set of circumstances you've put together there. Not everyone is guaranteed to have 2 pieces of T5 or get partied with a shadow priest.

That is what the character sheet shows, and it is not anywhere near accurate. Crit, AP, Talents, buffs, and a host of other factors determine your AP to Damage ratio, and most calculations for Hunters show somewhere between .25 and .3 DPS per AP, for Rogues it is generally .3 or more, for Druids it is down around .2, I believe warriors are .25 (prot is about half that), and enh shaman are around .2-.3 as well. If you delve into all the class specific DPS spread sheets you can figure out your own AP to DPS conversion because it will vary based on your spec and gear. 0.2 DPS to 1 AP is generally going to be a good blanket estimate for all of your melee.



The problem of Expose weakness I find is that the people gaining the buff need to be maximizing their class in the first place in order to gain the full benefit of the buff, otherwise it ends up being wasted. I found when I went survival we had so few melees performing at their peak potential that our raid as a whole lost DPS.

Something else to keep in mind when comparing BM to Survival is that you lose a fairly large chunk of personal DPS. For me the loss in personal DPS combined with FI did not make up for the gain from EW. I would estimate I lost around 15% of my DPS which pretty much negated any benefit EW brought.

I think it has a lot to do with how you are able to gear for each spec. If I went from my current SV spec to BM using my current gear, Cheeky's Spreadsheet shows me gaining only about 50 dps. With gear tailored around that build, I'm sure that figure would be much greater.

My spreadsheet dps is 941 unbuffed, while importing our top BM hunter into the spreadsheet shows him at 1048 unbuffed dps with a comparable level of gearing. He and the other BM hunters usually edge me out in personal dps, but I put up a good fight.

From my personal experience, I have to disagree that the loss in personal dps negates the EW benefit. In my opinion, if played correctly, a Survival hunter is a valuable asset to any raid.

I had 800+ agility in early SSC/TK for my survival set, I waited until I had the gear to try it out. But when I lose 150+ personal DPS according to a week's worth of WWS reports and we only had maybe 3 melees at the time really taking advantage of EW it was not worthwhile in the least. It works if you have melee friendly fights and melees who are really on top of their game, but at the time I tried it, Survival was not the best spec for me to take. All I am saying is that you *have* to keep all of the factors in mind, you cannot just look at it and say "EW is X more DPS than FI" and ignore the difference in personal DPS. That difference in personal DPS could very well change everything the way it did for me. I do not care how good you are at your shot rotation, there is no possible way to do higher DPS as survival than you would have as BM assuming you take the time to switch the appropriate gear around. You also cannot measure DPS based on other people, you have to check it on yourself. If you out DPS BM hunters as Survival then you are simply out playing them, where if you are the one doing the respeccing and gear swapping it is much easier to see the difference on a level playing field.

As for personal experience, that is precisely my point: everyone will have different results with survival based on their raid make-up, their gear level, and most importantly the DPSers they happen to be buffing. For you, survival is an increase in raid DPS, while for me it was a decrease. If I did the same respec today (assuming I had the gear) I could probably make good use of Survival since we now have a lot of very good melee DPS. Though that will never happen since I was asked to raid with my Resto Druid.

Hello, I have a few questions that seem to be flamed fairly easy on the wow forums and was looking for some professional assistance.

I am a survival hunter and am scared to death of shot macro's and every one I've tested easily gets nuked by my manual shots, even though I'm sure I clip alot of shots, I still fear clipping of macro's have I just been given bad macro's or just lucky with my manual shots?

So what I'm looking for is a macro for a survival based PvE hunter, with stringing in steady's in between auto's of course with a mixture of arcane shot when its cd is up as well as multi-shot when its cd is up, also would like one without the multishot for CC situations.

If you can assist awesome, id love to try macro's like i said just deathly scared of what ive experienced in the past, also, recently read that the wind serpent with appropriate crit on your hunter can produce some great dps in reference with your critical shots and Lightning Bolt, my question for the serpent, would be where should i go with its training points, do i get bite or does that play a part on interupting its damage, just wondering, thanks for your help

-Ace-

Well, this group is *not* into flaming Scroll up a few posts where I question someone and get 2 well worded replies. Leave all the socially challenged trolls in the official forums and join us in here.

Thanks for the insightful replies to AP -vs- dps, Kaber and Leighlu.


As far as shot macros, try:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Any chance I could get one of these with a Multi-Shot in it? Or do i just add the /castrandom Multi-Shot Rank ## in a seperate line?

-Ace-

Can anyone point me to some testing done on pet DPS? I see a lot of `ravagers are best' and also some `wind serpents are best' claims but not seeing any actual data to back up either claim.

It's mostly the potential of the wind serpents I'm interested in, I'm a BM hunter who's just dropped his cat for a wind serpent, I plan to prioritize Bite and toggle Lighting Breath through the macro since the spreadsheet suggests it might max DPS. But any actual testing/numbers out there? Or is this question better asked in the BM thread?

Ok guys im not one to ask for help very often but i am stuck. I am a 41/20 Hunter in decent gear. I cannot seem to break the sustained 1k Dps mark during our raids. We do SSC 2-3 times a week and Tk usually 1 time a weeks. We are not nearly as progressed as some other guilds due to the fact that we are only like 5 months old. But with that said i come here very often and read the posts and try to use them the best i can to help my hunters in the guild get better. So what can i do to break the 1k sustained Dps mark? I currently use the following macro as a shot rotation, throwing in Arcane shot whenever it is off cooldown. I also use my MS whenever it is availiable and can be safely used.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Here is my armory link.
The World of Warcraft Armory

I also use the macro listed below to blow my trinkets. whenever they are up.

/petattack
/use Bloodlust
/stopcasting
/cast Bestial Wrath
/stopcasting
/cast Intimidation

Soo,,now with myself exposed plese help i can sustain about 890-950 DPS on every raid but i know that i should be doing more then that. I just dont know how i can pull it of. I a mthe Hunter Class lead so if i cant do it then i shouldnt expect my hunters to be able to do it. Thanks

@Jnnab: Tried the

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

macro already? Maybe this one ist the better alternative. You should gain a 3:2 (Steady:Auto) Rotation with this. This should be nearly the best macro for you, while wearing a 2.9 oder 3 Weapon. Alle the best to you and good luck!

Short Question: How much affects the Ping / Latency the Dps?
Also I should have a fairly fast InternetConnection (6000 DSL without "Fastpath") with 2 PCs on the router, my Latency in the Raid is about ~170-200ms. In low-activity Areas it dropps to ~70, but only the Raid is interesting.

I read something about a ~50dps loss for low Latency-Players @ 200ms. Is this "true" / is it possible to count the low latency into "dps-loss"?

Thanks for your answers. Also I'd like to know (if you have the time), if there is a dps-loss, why is there a loss? I dont understand that in the technical way. My Cast will appear 200ms later at the server, thats ok. But this cant be a loss, because the next cast also will appear only 200ms later, or does this affect the rotation that much?

Thanks a lot.

Edit: I forgot: On TeamSpeak2 and on websites, I have a latency of 50ms. And thats another fact I cant understand. :-(

That 200ms goes both ways.. 200ms for your client to get the action to the server, and another 200ms for the server to get the result back to your client.

What's your pet? For your gear, a ravager will be best. Eventually, you'll want to switch to a wind serpent when your crit rate gets high enough (~35%.)

Using +8 agi gems will increase your dps slightly.

The shot macro can be simplified to:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

The issue is that you need to spam this about 10 times a second or use Quartz and try to hand-time it. I've tried both ways, and the spamming (using a Nostromo keypad) is so much easier on my fingers (and gives me higher dps.)

I tend to reserve Intimidation for interrupting mob spells -- to blow it immediately seems like a bad idea.

Don't blow your cooldowns until Ferocious Inspiration is up. That'll also help you manage your aggro.

And most importantly of all -- make sure you are fully buffed and use consumables.

Use WWS to track dps, and use recount to track instant dps.

Good luck!

When I was doing that "survey" our guild members were Kara+-T5 geared and numbers they provided are spreadsheet numbers.
Proper math on EW is long due I believe As Kaber noticed himself gain depends on your guildies performance.

I'll just copy/paste this answer I formed once(with minor edits):

Lets say you have 1000agi.
1. That's 250 AP EW.
2. Rogue spreadsheet says 250ap bonus = 100dps@T6 gear (made up the number)
3. You have 2 rogues. One doing 2000 and one 1500 dps, same spec, same gear, same group, different skill/luck
4. You must move allot and your EW uptime suffers (80% uptime).

Did you contribute 200 dps (2x100dps from spreadsheet) out of that 3500? No, uptime is not 100%.
Was it 160 (80%)? No again, those rogues are not robots from spreadsheet. (one is doing 2k other 1.5k dps)

What needs to be done for is finding % of dps increase for each Physical class by EW. And calculate raid gain for each from there to be precise.
For me constant (250ap) EW would be 75dps increase in spreadsheet, that equals to 4,42% of my (personal, no pet) dps. And if I'm doing 1200 personal dps (instead 1700 from spreadsheet) ... that 75dps lowers to 53dps gain from EW.

Note that this % changes with Talents/Rotations and current Gear as well with external buffs and procs.
To actually find what EW does for your raid with great accuracy, you need to dissect your combat log.

Jnnab--Is your armory as of 02/21/08 your pvp kit or your raiding kit? Same with your spec. If this is the gear and spec you use for raiding, then you need to pick up quite a bit of hit rating, and respec to improve your pet's focus generation (Go for the Throat and Bestial Discipline). If this is not your raiding setup, tell us what you use. Based on your meta gem this might be your pvp kit but I am unsure.

Assuming the gear in your armory is your raiding stuff, as was already mentioned you need a ton of hit. That is hurting you a lot.

I'm in SSC and TK as well, but have a lot more T5 and such then you. Cheekys says I should get about 1500 DPS but that just never happens. Usually I sit right around the 900 - 1100 mark, once in a while on some fights, I may hit 1200 - 1300, but nowhere near 1500. With your gear and hit, you should honestly be normally hitting about 700 - 800. Remember your sustained DPS is also a factor of how long the fight lasts. How good your overall raid dps is will affect your sustained DPS numbers.

Do you have any WWS for us to look at? We can give you a lot more help if we see those.

I tried this macro this morning, and it refused to shoot an arcane shot what am I wrong?

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot

This is your problem, as techincally you can only /cast one spell per macro. (/cast !auto shot is a physical and /cast KC is for you pet, not you).

try either

just /cast Steady Shot(and get rid of the the arcane shot)

or

/castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot