acer6798

Oh i was assuming for BM spec. Id agree you would have room for both as a surv spec. Im not sure tho that it would negate it completely. my ashtongue is up 80% of the time. at 275 its a constant 200 on average, the sliver is around 150 when averaged out. the hats emakes up dps wise. but not AP wise.

Im sorry i assumed it was a BM spec. for the Muru encounter. I believe as surv the DST and sliver is your best combo to seek for. As for the ashtongue to spine. I think that it would be a dps upgrade. However in a 3:2 my trinket is up 80% of the fight. averaging around 200 AP through the encounter. the sliver is judged around 150 i believe considering its uptime is far less due to internal CD. so i dont think it will negate the loss from the switch. the haste will simply tighten your rotation. Still resulting in a dps increase.

For some reason it didnt register my first post, so i wrote the second one and the first one magically appeared. Sorry about the double post with generally the same response.

 

Kaganar

Any particular reason why people are using crit scopes? It seems like they're just being defaulted to. MC's [Biznicks 247x128 Accurascope] has +30 hit, and hit/crit is considered equally expensive on gems. This would free up a trinket slot from what some perceive as an inferior trinket ([Madness of the Betrayer]), and make room for something else It's only two points of hit, but it is two points of hit you don't have to gem of use that god-awful trinket for (awfulness of trinket is exaggerated).

 

alienangel

This would be where you post a higher DPS result using a different scope

 

acer6798

I generally assume that its due to the accessibility of making the scope. One requires you to go into MC and farm the mats, the other is easily solo able. Another would be that some of the newer servers don't even have the scope available to them. As for looking at a DPS stand-point all i can figure is i have looked into this myself and it would generally be a way to free up the 30 hit rating yes, but generally once you have your ideal set your already around the hit cap thus the crit scope is more beneficial. Id say its a matter best left to what your gear is suited for, and not from a simple dps view.

 

alienangel

The mats are fairly easy to get if you can round up a pug MC run late on a friday night.

I'm not saying using the hit scopes are a bad idea, I had one on my old steelhawk the day I got it, and still have one of the badge Xbows in my bag with a hit scope, which I swap out with my current crit-scoped xbow on some fights. But I haven't managed a dream gear setup that had higher dps with a hit scope than a crit one - there's no fundamental reason for this to go either way btw, so you may well find such a setup.

 

Rokh

There's every reason to use a hit scope vs. a crit scope. In fact there are very few situations where it pays you to use a crit scope over a hit scope. It's all in the gemming; if you have gems you can swap around for more dps stats, then using a hit scope is great. Breaking it down:

Hit scope: 3x 10 Hit Gems / 6x 5agi 5hit gems
Crit scope: 2.8x 10 Crit Gems / 5.6x 5agi 5hit gems

Basically, if you're socketing for Hit/Agi or pure Hit, it's worth it to switch around gems and use a hit scope instead.

 

Kamaa

The problem is, none of the end game builds socket for hit rating. Every one of them sockets for pure crit or crit/ap. The only thing you could change from some of the ideal end game builds would be swapping [Madness of the Betrayer] for [Berserker's Call] but then you are only 20 points below the hit cap, 21 or 22 at most. Unless you can make use of 29+ points of hit rating from the hit scope, then the crit scope is better.

People aren't using the crit scope because it's the best scope. People are using it because it's the best scope for the best gear.

Omegatron has arrived.

 

Xoran

None of the endgame builds (as of now) socket hitrating, because they all use leather items to cover the hitrating. I recently checked out the new Kil'jaeden loot and at a first glance it seems, that [Coif of Alleria] with the +hit-scope will beat [Duplicitous Guise]. So we might see a use for this scope in the future.

 

Ondskaben

I fail to see how you come to this conclusion. Putting them to a small compare test (cancelling out the sockets as they are identical) the coif with a hit scope would have 2.715% crit 30 hit rating, where the guise with crit scope would have 2.343% crit 34 hit rating. Then you can argue about the 4 hit rating difference versus the 0.372% crit difference.

Trouble is, the coif has 182 armor ignore on top whereas the guise has haste on top. The haste might be what makes or breaks your desired setup for a certain rotation sweet spot. On the other hand you might have what you need and the armor ignore could be of higher value to you. You could also end up in a scenario where you would want your hit centralized on very few items where the guise with a hit scope could yield 64 hit rating. Etc.

Just trying to illustrate that from where I am sitting, these two items don't compare well without a desired background profile.

 

alienangel

This seems exactly the wrong thread to argue like this. We're arguing about results we can get out of a spreadsheet. If using a hit scope instead of a crit scope yields higher DPS than the current best setup in the spreadsheet, then post the new setup with the hit scope, and the discussion ends.

If you can find no such setup, then thank you for the reminder that hit scopes exist.

 

Khassandra

With my current gear, if I replace my crit scope with the hit scope, and replace two +10 hit gems with +10 crit gems (at which point I can stop using the Choker of Vile Intent and go back to the Shattered Sun Pendant of Might), my dps goes up by about 10. Minor change but it would definitely open up other gear upgrades for me. Unfortunately, Biznick's scope is impossible to find on my server and impossible to get a group together just to farm mats.

 

alienangel

Yes, I occasionally end up in gear sets that favour the hit scope too (in fact I'd hazard that anyone who kills Mother Sharaz often ends up in this situation regularly). But sadly what gear the two of us are wearing is a long way off from being relevant to "Best possible DPS in Cheeky's Spreadsheet".

Sorry to hear about your server's Biznick status Have you really asked around though? When I actually started looking for a crafter a few months back, I was surprised to find that 2-3 people I didn't know had learned the schematic since it started dropping in MC again.

 

Khassandra

Agreed. I haven't had the best luck with drops and when I have seen something drop that I can use, like Madness of the Betrayer, someone like a shaman snatches it from my grasp.

With Biznick, its not so much a lack of anyone having the schematic, but no one making it. I look everytime I go to the AH (for both the scope or any of the mats), but it seems that MC isn't a very popular destination anymore. Sad, because I'd be willing to pay a good chunk of money for one.

 

Xoran

So I had a little time and wanted to back up my statement about the +hit-scope with some hard data. I entered the new Kil'jaeden loot as custom gear and these are the results:

First by changing to the new [Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury] stats and going to an all 1:1 rotation, we get 2541,61 dps as reference.

Then I entered [Thalassian Ranger Gauntlets], [Cloak of Unforgivable Sin], which are clear upgrades and went with [Angelista's Revenge] and [Berserker's Call].
This results in 2590,72 dps seen here.

Now I change to [Coif of Alleria] and a +30hit-scope and I get 2604,33 dps, which can be taken to 2607,47 dps by inserting one glinting pyrestone (instead of a smooth lionseye) for the final bit of hit.
Because of a little bit less haste now going back to a 1:1,x rotation further increases the dps to 2610,56 respectively 2613,68!

Final spreadsheet

 

Energy

I don't see how you can shoot a reliable 1:1 even with max haste with that bow. You'd need like 480 haste to get near 1:1 drawspeed.

 

Rifeus

This really doesn't fit in here, but the attackspeed you'd want to have a 1:1 on draw speed, for whatever reason that is, is 1.5 + latency. Assuming you a 150ms latency you'd want to be close to a 1.65s attack speed. Correct me if I am wrong. So that is 2.7/(1.2*1.15*1.05*x)=1.65, if you solve that you'll need a passive attackspeed increase of 12.93% which is 204 haste rating, which you can almost get by having some good haste items:
Trinket/Ring/neck/felspine/cloak = 196 haste rating.

 

Tornhoof

Since I'm writing a hunter module for my weo2 tool I have a small question about Cheeky's Spreadsheet, where is the armor reduction of the dps in his sheets?. I can find the effects of armor penetration on the armor, but not where the dps is adjusted for the armor.
My current module has no pet dps or effects currently so the result is currently only autoshot/steadyshot and probably not every buff is currently properly applied, but Pastey.net - paste bin is the current result. If you find severe errors, like items which should not show up in any case, please tell me

http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

 

Reinforce

I got a bit confused with haste & shot rotations. Right now I use Crossbow of Relentless Strikes and my speed is 2.00 exactly. I use a 3:2 rotation because Cheeky's spreadsheet showed me more dps with 3:2 then with 1:1. However, when I used the page with Quick Shots, it turned out that 1:1 overdps 3:2. I couldn't see what the difference would be with Dragonspine Trophy (which I have as well as of today).

What exactly do I have to expect now? Would I need to assume that if there's any haste boost, the 1:1 rotation overdps 3:2 rotation? Or am I looking/thinking the wrong way? I hope someone can clear it up for me, I'm lost.

 

• Intermission

He said "1:1,x".

("1:1.X" might seem more familiar to you).

It's a fancy way of saying 1:1.5, but not quite 1.5. Due to haste, you wont be able to keep the 1:1.5 cycle going, so you wait an extra auto/steady before the next special.

It's what most BM hunters did before the "3:2 revolution". It's a 1:1 but with multi's and arcanes thrown in when you can, in order to produce more shots per minute (eg an extra multi shot is worth a 0.8 second auto clip). See this post for more info. It's very old, but it has me explaining a 1:1.x in there somewhere, though it wasn't named at the time.

 

justbekuz

When quickshots happens, your 3:2 rotation essentially turns into a 1:1 rotation. So you should be inserting the 1:1 rotation into that tab.

 

Energy

I'm talking about when he said he'd go to an all 1:1 rotation, you know, as quoted. Thanks for the explanation though.

 

• Intermission

He listed that result as a reference of the change of gear, not the rotation he intended to use after he lost the haste items.


Here is when he mentioned his actual shot rotation:

 

Barradin

Moved to correct thread

 

Energy

I don't reallly see your point. He's talking about shooting 1:1 with a lot of haste items equipped, then after changing some items he goes back to 1:1,x. My question was that it does not seem feasible to shoot 1:1 even with those haste items because you'd need like 480 haste to get to 1.5 draw speed. Someone else then noted that you could substract your ping worth of haste from the rating required, proving that it's possible to shoot 1:1 as long as you have 150+ ms ping.

I just don't see what your explanation of 1:1,x or the fact that he changes items and goes back to 1:1,x (which, mind you, is done to boost the spreadsheet dps and in reality is pretty hard to effectively pull off, especially for such a small dps gain) has to do with the reality of shooting 1:1 with a Thoridal.

Trying to bring some of the spreadsheet's findings into the real game is what interests me more than theoretical 3 dps increases you could get from shooting less practical rotations.

 

Ferrari_13

Yes it does. Go and equip the lowest level bow you can find, for example from a level 1 zone. Now equip only your weapon(DW or 2H) and bow and attack Dr.Boom then use the [Fel Sharpening Stone] and you will see the difference. They even stack if you DW, but i don't know if they scale properly.

Edit: Grammar police called me