Enova

Well, I don't see why leather should be an issue. Lots of hunters end up wearing leather if it's better and the rogues aren't interested in it... Just because the leather helm off Illidan is probably the best rogue helm in the game doesn't mean any other classes don't benefit from it. It simply makes rogues the main candidates for it; and quite frankly, I'd feel bad about getting one before a rogue, but I wouldn't let it get sharded, either.

 

Kamaa

Yes, a listing of mail based max dps could be shown. The information you're asking for is readily available to you. Use Cheeky's spreadsheet, and some of the posts above as a basis to build on, and let us know what you come up with. As for using BM, there is no "pre-requisite" to use BM for this thread, but try as I might I can't find a MM/SV setup that can theoretically out DPS BM.

 

Wunlastri

True enough Enova, rogues in RI have actually told me how good that'd end up being for me. After blinking at them, they then point out how they are saving for swords and I sigh heavily.

When using Cheeky's spreadsheet, I can never save my layouts as non Cheeky from Havoc. Even when I deleted his profile and tried to save it as Wun, it said Cheeky didn't exist and I couldn't save it.

 

Midnight

The purpose of this thread was to see if other people could come up with other creative ways to equip themselves besides the obvious T6 route that´d yield better DPS results. In order to make the results compareable we had to establish certain parameters. In my original post I proposed a setting of (de)buffs, consumables and enemy armor that I saw as typical for a raid environment. Restricting the equipment selection on top of this to only mail armors would counteract the orignial purpose of the thread though.

 

Midnight

I tried to recreate your build as good as possible and only came up with

DPS: 2002,71
Crit: 34,47%
Hit: 100%

You can download this spreadsheet here and tell me exactly where I made an error.
Also since this seemed to be the best theoretical DPS presented here so far the challange for everyone is now to get even more DPS only by changing Gear, Talents, Shot Rotations (excluding Latency of course) and Pet. If anyone can come up with a better setting I´ll upload it as new challange.

 

Kamaa

I'm guessing you have a hit/agi gem that you should make a crit gem instead.

Omegatron has arrived.

 

Midnight

Changing the [Glinting Pyrestone] in the T6 shoulders for a pure crit Smooth Lionseye raised the crit chance to 35,79% and the DPS to 2005,32 leaving another 3,28 DPS diffrence. Those can most likely be explained with some small diffrence in pet and talents.

btw 20011,41 DPS seem a little bit too much even for agi elixirs I think. SCNR

 

Kamaa

Hunter Buffs


Pet Buffs and Boss Debuffs


On a humorous note... I upped the damage a little more. Pet DPS can be increased by using Bite over LB.


Also, I use no hit/agi gems. All of them are pure crit ones. My apologies for a previous post suggesting otherwise.

Omegatron has arrived.

 

dreamtheatre

Total DPS=2377.79

Hunter DPS=1645.04
Pet DPS=732.76

Crit=41.63%
Hit=100%


Orc
Halberd of Desolation
Major Agility (Two Hand)

Cursed Vision of Sargeras
Glyph of Ferocity
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond (12 Agi)
Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst (5 Agi, 7 Sta)

Choker of Endless Nightmares

Gronnstalker's Spaulders
Greater Inscription of Vengence
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)
Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst (5 Agi, 7 Sta)

Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape
Greater Agility

Gronnstalker's Chestguard
Exceptional Stats
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)

Bindings of Lightning Reflexes
Assault

Gronnstalker's Gloves
Superior Agility
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)

Valestalker Girdle

Gronnstalker's Leggings
Nethercobra Leg Armor
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)

Shadowmaster's Boots
Dexterity
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)

Ring of Deceitful Intent

Band of Devastation

Dragonspine Trophy
Berserker's Call
Bristleblitz Striker
Stabilized Eternium Scope

Quiver of a Thousand Feathers
Timeless Arrow

Buffs
BoK, BoM, TSA, LoP, Air Totem,
GotW, Warp Burger, Flask of Relentless Assault

Pet Buffs
BoK, BoM, Battle Shout, TSA, LoP, Air Totem, Str Totem, Hunter's Mark
GotW, Kibler's Bits

2 Hunters (1MM, 1BM), Enhanced Shaman, Warrior, Feral Druid

 

Kamaa

If you want to add something to the thread, post within the limits provided in the first post. At least note the points where you deviate and the difference these deviations make. If I want to post some random and mostly useless information I can hit:

Hunter DPS 1785.82
Pet DPS 914.59
Total DPS 2700.41

This doesn't mean it's useful or even reasonable.

Omegatron has arrived.

 

Vaxum

The first post specifies talented FF, you're assuming non-talented. If you switch that up you'll be able to drop some +hit gear and hit a higher max DPS.

There are still a few baseline variables not specified in the initial post, we should lock them down:
Race: folk have been posting a mix of Orc & Troll #s. Let's pick one for consistency, probably Orc since it's the highest DPS.
Professions: it looks like everyone is assuming taking Enchanting for the ring enchants, should we assume any 2 professions worth of BoP stuff? This would let us also assume JC for [Stone of Blades], good for another ~2dps.
Latency: I'm assuming we're going with the spreadsheet default of 0.2 seconds - it's worth being explicit about this IMO.

Now, as for the max DPS # with talented FF - assuming an Orc Enchanter/JC, I get:
Hunter DPS: 1516.05
Total DPS: 2027.22

Dropping back to the assumptions Kamaa made (Troll Enchanter), I get:
Hunter DPS: 1521.99
Total DPS: 2015.11

The pet was assumed to be a Wind Serpent, with Bite as primary & Lightning Breath as secondary abilities. Since the the 1st post doesn't list the current "high score" items in each slot, here's what I settled on for gearing to achieve the above #s:
MH: Dagger of Bad Mojo, Greater Agility
OH: Dagger of Bad Mojo, Greater Agility
Head: Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Smooth Lionseye+Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, Glyph of Ferocity
Neck: Choker of Endless Nightmares
Shoulders: Gronnstalker's Spaulders, Smooth Lionseye+Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst, Greater Inscription of Vengeance
Back: Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape, Greater Agility
Chest: Gronnstalker's Chestguard, Delicate Crimson Spinel+Smooth Lionseye+Jagged Seaspray Emerald, Exceptional Stats
Wrist: Bindings of Lightning Reflexes, Assault
Hands: Gronnstalker's Gloves, Delicate Crimson Spinel, Superior Agility
Waist: Boneweave Girdle
Legs: Gronnstalker's Leggings, Delicate Crimson Spinel, Nethercobra Leg Armor
Feet: Shadowmaster's Boots, Delicate Crimson Spinel+Smooth Lionseye OR Stone of Blades if JC, Dexterity
Ring: Band of Devastation, Stats if Enchanter
Ring: Signet of Primal Wrath, Stats if Enchanter
Trinket: Berserker's Call
Trinket: Dragonspine Trophy
Ranged: Bristleblitz Striker, Stabilized Eternium Scope
Quiver: Quiver of a Thousand Feathers
Ammo: Timeless Arrow

There is one more upgrade I identified, but Cheeky's spreadsheet doesn't model it so you have to add it in manually - the exalted Scale of the Sands ring, which has an AP proc that works out to an average boost of 34.04 AP with this gear setup if you take the WoWHead comments re: procrate, duration & cooldown on faith (math here). Replacing Band of Devastation with the exalted Hyjal ring & adding in 34.04 AP by hand yields:

Orc Enchanter/JC
Hunter DPS: 1519.16
Total DPS: 2033.88

Troll Enchanter
Hunter DPS: 1525.10
Total DPS: 2021.59

 

Ishmaael

out of interest how much of a gain is it to swap the JC for LWer, and assume 1/4 of the time that you have drums.

or you could even assume constant effect due to the fact that if your like me you get put with 4-5 people who all have these drums, the 5th using restoration. While you might see it outside the perameters its still sort of in the spirit of everything.

 

Kamaa

This is not a thread for questions.

Vaxum,

You presented some new ideas and I'll take a couple of them and improve on it. I won't use the exalted Hyjal ring because.... this is a thread using Cheeky's Spreadsheet. ;-) I do however implore you to go to the spreadsheet thread and link the test results. No, I don't take wowhead as gospel, but if Cheeky is willing to implement the results then we might boost theoretical DPS in this thread.

I was most excited by the findings that it was possible finally for a slower end game weapon to beat the [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] but a few of your item choices were a little off. I also suspect your shot rotation was not efficient. Remember to use a 1:1.5 Multi/Steady priority when no haste procs exist, and a 1:1 rotation with a Multi/Steady priority while under haste procs. To clarify, I never used troll in my examples. I always used Orc as I will in the following example. I will also use the [Stone of Blades] as you suggested.

Complete DPS:
Pet DPS 521.47 25.66%
Hunter DPS 1510.99 74.34%
Total DPS 2032.46

Pet:
Wind Serpent

Pet Abilities in order of priority:
Bite
Lightning Breath

Race:
Orc

Professions:
JC/Enchanting

Main Hand:
[Dagger of Bad Mojo]
Greater Agility (One Hand)

Off Hand:
[Dagger of Bad Mojo]
Greater Agility (One Hand)

Helmet:
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]

[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]

Neck:
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]

Shoulders:
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Smooth Lionseye]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]

Back:
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
Greater Agility

Chest:
[Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
Exceptional Stats
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Stone of Blades]
[Smooth Lionseye]

Wrists:
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
Assault

Hands:
[Gronnstalker's Gloves]
Superior Agility
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]

Belt:
[Boneweave Girdle]

Legs:
[Gronnstalker's Leggings]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]

Feet:
[Shadowmaster's Boots]
Dexterity
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Smooth Lionseye]

Rings:
[Stormrage Signet Ring]
Stats

[Signet of Primal Wrath]
Stats

Trinkets:
[Berserker's Call]

[Dragonspine Trophy]

Ranged Weapon:
[Bristleblitz Striker]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]

Quiver/Pouch:
[Quiver of a Thousand Feathers]

Ammo:
[Timeless Arrow]

Please remember that all of this is within the parameters of not only the spreadsheet but the parameters set in the first post. Outside of that, creativity is the only limit. Also keep in mind there are some things suggested here that you wouldn't actually do. This is not the place to discuss the logic of these selections, but the numbers supporting them. If you have a question or an argument, please provide the numbers to support it, and use Cheeky's Spreadsheet as the basis for those numbers. If you think there is a flaw in the spreadsheet, use the spreadsheet thread to point it out.

Omegatron has arrived.

 

Vaxum

I like your idea of ditching the socket bonus on the headpiece for a [Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst] to meet the metagem requirement. I also hadn't considered using a 1:1.5 rotation when non-hasted, nice suggestion.

However, I'm having a hard time duplicating your #s with version 39 of the spreadsheet. I put in the exact same racial, gear/gem/enchant options you listed, switched to a 1:1.5 & 1:1 (Multi>Steady) rotations, and I get a lower DPS # than you listed. This also makes sense to me in that you swapped in [Stormrage Signet Ring] which should put you at 122 hit, or ~26 hit over the cap (assuming talented FF as specified in the first post).

Anyway, I have a slightly higher DPS solution - keep your gear almost as is, but swap [Stormrage Signet Ring] for [Band of Devastation] again. You are back to 92 hit, just a hair under the cap, and the resulting DPS #s are:

Hunter DPS: 1522.14
Pet DPS: 510.88
Total DPS: 2033.01

I agree that using [Band of the Eternal Champion] is questionable under the parameters of this thread (this is why I listed it as an afterthought). I've posted the #s for it on the TKASomething.com thread so it's up to Cheeky to decide if the procrate etc. is worth trusting enough to model in the spreadsheet. If he does, replacing [Band of Devastation] with [Band of the Eternal Champion] bumps total DPS up to 2043.50, which would be a nice boost.

 

Vaxum

I found one more tweak to our max DPS solution - we've been missing out on shoulder enchant DPS. Replacing the [Greater Inscription of Vengeance] (Aldor) with [Greater Inscription of the Blade] (Scryer) yields ~0.42 dps. Going further (and presumably still within the bounds of the original post since it is modelled in the spreadsheet), switching the shoulder enchants to [Might of the Scourge] from Naxx is even better, yielding another 1.65dps. Building on my previous post, the resulting max DPS is:

Hunter DPS: 1523.54
Pet DPS: 511.14
Total DPS: 2034.68

 

Kamaa

Vaxum,

Based on your obviously inversed pet/hunter DPS numbers I suspect you are struggling to reach my original numbers because of something to do with your pet. Did you make sure to give him bite, and make it the priority over lightning breath?

As for the [Band of Devastation] when I swap it in I see a minute DPS loss. (approximately .4) However, if I swap in the ring as you suggested and also drop to an entirely 1:1 shot ratio the extra haste is enough for a slight DPS boost bringing the new totals as listed below.

Complete DPS
Hunter DPS 1516.01 74.37%
Pet DPS 522.41 25.63%
Total DPS 2038.42


EDIT: Included [Might of the Scourge]. This is something I would have never thought to consider having not raided pre TBC. Thanks for all the help. ;-)

Omegatron has arrived.

 

Vaxum

I don't think so - I mislabelled the hunter vs pet DPS, but the #s are accurate. He had bite + LB, with bite prioritized.

How are you setting up your shot rotations? I still get the best results with the haste ring & a 1:1.X unhasted rotation, though I did notice when configuring the DST rotation that "DST Rotation" is best left as a strict 1:1 with Auto/Steady, while "DST & QS Rotation" is best set up as a 1:1 with Multi>Steady.

I'm happy to share my spreadsheet (or cross-check against yours) to see where the discrepancy is - the minor differences are quite vexing. Send me a PM or contact me directly on pdrayton at gmail dot com.

 

rabidfire

Using that link and making some changes I got 2020.92dps

Cloak: [Cloak of Fiends] (not going to argue if it exists or not, its in the spreadsheet end of story!)
Wrist: [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
Belt: [Valestalker Girdle]
Ring1: [Ring of Deceitful Intent]
Ring2: [Signet of Primal Wrath]
Trinket1: [Madness of the Betrayer]
Trinket2: [Dragonspine Trophy]
Weapon: [Bristleblitz Striker]

 

mickeyknox

Has anyone considered using Biznick's Accurascope in place of items with hit on them, replacing them with ones lacking hit? 30 hit is worth more item-value wise than 28 crit is, correct?

 

Kamaa

The accurascope is indeed the best scope available at the moment. The problem arises in finding enough gear without hit rating on it that actually does more DPS than the gear with hit rating on it. While the scope is better, you need to use almost every point of the hit rating for it to be better.

That means, and I'm just speculating because I haven't tested this much with the spreadsheet, that you need gear that has a maximum of ~115 hit rating and is able to put out more DPS than the alternatives with hit rating on them. The number is obviously far lower for a SV hunter. If your gear has 120-140 hit rating without the scope, then the scope is quite obviously a waste.

Omegatron has arrived.

 

Nakari

I'm reaching 2130,48 DPS (vs 7,7k AC) / 2399,22 DPS (vs. 6,2k AC) with a fairly ac-pen heavy gearset (-973 total), consisting of:

Full T6, Legs substituted for [Bow-stitched Leggings]
2x [Dagger of Bad Mojo] +20 Agi
[Bristleblitz Striker]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Signet of Primal Wrath] +4 Stats
[Stormrage Signet Ring] +4 Stats
[Choker of Serrated Blades]
[Softstep Boots of Tracking]
[Boneweave Girdle]
[Wraps of Precise Flight]
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
[Timeless Arrow]

Gems are 10 Agi for red, 5 Agi/5 Hit for yellow and 5 Agi/7 Stam for blue sockets (total: 2 blue, 4 yellow, 10 red).

Orc with standard BM spec, using strictly Steady:Auto rotation with moderate (i.e. realistic) buffs/debuffs typical for our raids:

Leader of the Pack
Blessing of Might (non-improved) for me and pet
Blessing of Kings for me and pet
MotW (5/5 improved) for me and pet
Warp Burger
Elixir of Greater Agility
Kibler's Bits

~200 AP Expose Weakness from our Survival Hunter
5x Sunder Armor
Faerie Fire (non-improved)
CoR

I guess I could get even higher going for leather on some slots ([Shadowmaster's Boots] for example) and taking a ravager as pet instead of my beloved raptor, though these results encourage me in my belief that currenty, ac penetration is a very nice stat to have

 

Kamaa

Your post doesn't reflect anything near the best gear setup available. Use the buffs/debuffs listed in the first post if you would contribute to the thread, otherwise you're just wasting everybodies time.

Omegatron has arrived.

 

Ishmaael

always so aggressive kamaa.

 

khel

Improved FF is something that very few raids will have, so this whole thread isn't going to be very beneficial to hunters that don't have this. The other buffs and raid setups affect stat priorities a bit sure, but hit rating hugely affects what the 'best' setup is.

[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Gronnstalker's Gloves]
[Valestalker Girdle]
[Gronnstalker's Leggings]
[Shadowmaster's Boots]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Stormrage Signet Ring]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
[Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness]
[Dagger of Bad Mojo] x2
[Bristleblitz Striker]

Also, one item that hugely affects your entire setup is the DST. With it, haste from items drops in value greatly, and suddenly items like [Valestalker Girdle] are replaced with [Boneweave Girdle], and [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] with [Insidious Bands]. For planning your final gear setup in a practical manner, I suggest starting with this trinket and deciding if it is realistic that you will get it eventually or not. I planned my gear setup expecting to never get a DST (/sigh), and I think this more accurately represents what most end-game hunters should be shooting for.

One other point that I would like to add, is that Cheeky's spreadsheet doesn't account for haste effects from consumables, and bloodlust. If you are in a group whose members use [Drums of Battle], haste potions, and bloodlust, then you will definitely be better off with a slower, higher dps weapon than the spreadsheet might lead you to believe.

Feel free to ignore this and continue the debate uninterrupted, but improved FF and the DST play too large of roles to simply check 'yes' or 'no' and get much practical information.

 

Fendryl

Slightly off-topic, but still somewhat relevant, it definitely exists now - we had one drop from the first chest tonight. Interestingly enough, with my current gear it scores better in Cheeky's than my [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]; however in my 'best' profile the Shadowmoon's is still better.