Best possible DPS in Cheeky's Spreadsheet - Page 3

Peritus · 01/12/08, 3:12 AM

HI all , Very nice thread, I was just wondering, I know that the aim is to have 100% hit rating,
but with the BM shot rotation all we ever shoot is steady/auto ,so lets say i switch 3% hit with
3% crit (by replacing gems), that means that over time for every shot i miss it will be conpecnated
by a crit, with the +30% crit dmg skill and the +3% crut dms meta gem for every crit over miss ill do 33% more dps.
so 3%(crit over hit) X 33% bonus = 1% more dps ?
thats if you are just dpsing ,dont care about missing a pull,and dont have to worry about missing and aim shot.
am I right or am i missing something?

b.t.w
I see that the pet of chice is a wind serpent,anything special I have to do to max out the
win serpents dps?

Love your hunter threads

alienangel · 01/12/08, 12:07 PM

Peritus, you're probably better asking that question in a thread like http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t15179-h...elp_me_please/ , this one isn't really for questions. The merits of hit vs crit for different specs are also discussed quite a lot in various hunter threads around, so you could probably learn all you need just poking around for a while.

alienangel · 01/23/08, 2:51 AM

This seems kind of obvious so maybe I'm missing something, but you get higher DPS replacing the [Boneweave Girdle] with [Don Alejandro's Money Belt], socketed with two [Delicate Crimson Spinel] - you don't need the hit from the mail belt since we're assuming Imp FF, and the dps stats on the leather one are much better.

Hunter DPS			1477.37
Total DPS			2010.40
Ranged Critical Hit Chance	35.86%
Ranged Hit Chance		100.00%

This is using all the same settings as in the Best-DPS-Build.xls spreadsheet linked in the first post.

edit: actually, even without the extra hit from Imp Faerie Fire, replacing the [Boneweave Girdle] with [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] is a dps boost, albiet a much smaller one.

Maarc · 01/25/08, 4:39 PM

Where do you get Cheeky's Excel spreadsheet? I tried the link at the start of this post and could not get to it.

Sarutobi · 01/25/08, 4:57 PM

The most recent version of the spreadsheet can always be found in the first post of this thread.

Koroshiya · 01/25/08, 6:16 PM

Hopefully I didn't break any of the rules. Downloaded the sheet, added the buffs, put in some gear and got the following. If I missed any of the rules please let me know.

Hunter DPS: 1524.84
Pet DPS: 568.58
Total DPS: 2093.43

Ranged Critical Hit Chance: 39.52%
Ranged Hit Chance: 100.00%

Dwarf
Twinblade of the Phoenix
Major Agility (Two Hand)
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)
Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst (5 Agi, 7 Sta)

Cursed Vision of Sargeras
Glyph of Ferocity
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond (12 Agi)
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)

Choker of Endless Nightmares

Gronnstalker's Spaulders
Greater Inscription of Vengence
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)
Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst (5 Agi, 7 Sta)

Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape
Greater Agility

Gronnstalker's Chestguard
Exceptional Stats
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)

Bindings of Lightning Reflexes
Assault

Gronnstalker's Gloves
Superior Agility
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)

Don Alejandro's Money Belt
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)

Gronnstalker's Leggings
Nethercobra Leg Armor
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)

Shadowmaster's Boots
Dexterity
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)
Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)

Band of the Ranger-General

Signet of Primal Wrath

Dragonspine Trophy

Berserker's Call

Barrel-Blade Longrifle
Stabilized Eternium Scope
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)
Delicate Crimson Spinel (10 Agi)

Netherscale Ammo Pouch
Timeless Shell

alienangel · 01/26/08, 1:53 AM

For one thing Gunnery, you changed the race to dwarf, sadly it's supposed to stay as Orc :S

Also, putting your gear choices in, I only get 1995.4 total DPS

.

When you changed the two 1H weapons to a 2H, did you remove off-hand weapon and it's enchant? That doesn't get done automatically and both weapon and enchant need to be set to none manually.

If you have, maybe I'm not setting up the DST/QS rotations optimally for the new haste effects.

Koroshiya · 01/26/08, 4:29 AM

Originally Posted by alienangel

For one thing Gunnery, you changed the race to dwarf, sadly it's supposed to stay as Orc :S

Also, putting your gear choices in, I only get 1995.4 total DPS

.

When you changed the two 1H weapons to a 2H, did you remove off-hand weapon and it's enchant? That doesn't get done automatically and both weapon and enchant need to be set to none manually.

If you have, maybe I'm not setting up the DST/QS rotations optimally for the new haste effects.

Hmm I didn't see anything in the instructions that said the race. And when I download the spreadsheet it defaults to Troll not Orc. So since others defined Orc I thought we were able to change the race. So what are the rules again? I am at work so I don't have the sheet I did it on, but I can try and recreate it here at work. There is definitely no enchant on the OH, since I never put one in.

Maarc · 01/26/08, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sarutobi

The most recent version of the spreadsheet can always be found in the first post of this thread.

I tried that first, but got this message, translated from German->English ala AltaVista Babel Fish

The desired side is not attainable

The Website, which wants to visit you, exceeded and is temporarily not not attainable the granted capacity. If you are the operator of these homepage and want the fact that your homepage is at short notice again attainable clicks you please here!

All information to the private homepage with Arcor.de finds you here!

Their Arcor team

My guess from that Gerglish they exceeded their Bandwidth and nobody is allowed to access the site --- except the owner --- for awhile.

So, where do you get Cheeky's Excel spreadsheet?

Midnight · 01/29/08, 8:51 AM

I'm sorry for not replying in a long time. I'll get the first post up to date as soon as I've checked all the proposed settings here myself and validated them to be working within the given parameters.

Also you're right about my ISP. It looks like they allows 1GB traffic per month only which has been exceeded for this month already. I removed the link to the customized spreadsheet with the current best results for the time beeing and may be looking for an alternative for the future. Sarutobi already posted the link to the original DPS spreadsheet thread a few posts above yours though, you can get a default version there.

On another note - I agree that talented FF isn't really "close to real raid conditions" most of the times as I stated in my first post. I've got to admit that when I first set the parameters I simply didn't think about the hit rating bonus it grants. Unless those with the currently highest settings agree I don't want to just change those parameters as I see fit though as it'd seem somewhat unfair considering the work they put into fiddleing around with their settings.

Oh and about the race question - no, I didn't limit the race selection to a certain race, pick whichever one you think is best suited.

edit: I just realized that not only did cheeky change the default target level to 70 (I knew that from reading the spreadsheet thread) but also changed default latency from 0,2s to 0,1s vastly changing the results of the spreadsheet if left untouched. I assume Koroshiya didn´t change those to get to the result he did. Of course you'll have to set those to the old values so the result stays comarable to the earlier ones. Also you should add a link to your talent set and specify which shot rotation and pet you´re using.

Midnight · 01/29/08, 10:09 AM

Alright trying to recreate Kamaa's latest spreadsheet proposal I couldn't quite get her numbers but for some reasons it even exceeded them by a few DPS.
I'm getting:

Hunter DPS: 1514,77
Pet DPS: 526,99
Total DPS: 2041,76

I made sure to use lvl 73 as target level and 0,2s latency on the shot rotations tab.
Did you already use the lates v. 40 of cheeky's spreadsheet? Maybe some items are calculating as higher damage with that one. Anyway - it'd help tremendously if you could link your talents and explained the exact shot rotation you're using at what speed.

edit: got even one more dps by changing the shot rotations somewhat.

alienangel · 01/29/08, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Midnight

Alright trying to recreate Kamaa's latest spreadsheet proposal I couldn't quite get her numbers but for some reasons it even exceeded them by a few DPS.
I'm getting:

Hunter DPS: 1514,77
Pet DPS: 526,99
Total DPS: 2041,76

I made sure to use lvl 73 as target level and 0,2s latency on the shot rotations tab.
Did you already use the lates v. 40 of cheeky's spreadsheet? Maybe some items are calculating as higher damage with that one. Anyway - it'd help tremendously if you could link your talents and explained the exact shot rotation you're using at what speed.

edit: got even one more dps by changing the shot rotations somewhat.

for mine I just downloaded the xls linked in the first post with kamaa's settings, and changed the gear slots I listed :o

Cheddar · 01/29/08, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Midnight

On another note - I agree that talented FF isn't really "close to real raid conditions" most of the times as I stated in my first post. I've got to admit that when I first set the parameters I simply didn't think about the hit rating bonus it grants. Unless those with the currently highest settings agree I don't want to just change those parameters as I see fit though as it'd seem somewhat unfair considering the work they put into fiddleing around with their settings.

It goes without saying that we appreciate all the work everyones done this far for the initial paramiters, but I really would like to see some ideal gear set ups without the talented FF

.

Vaxum · 01/29/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Midnight

On another note - I agree that talented FF isn't really "close to real raid conditions" most of the times as I stated in my first post. I've got to admit that when I first set the parameters I simply didn't think about the hit rating bonus it grants. Unless those with the currently highest settings agree I don't want to just change those parameters as I see fit though as it'd seem somewhat unfair considering the work they put into fiddleing around with their settings.

I'd rather we adjust the original parameters to NOT assume talented FF in every raid. Along the same lines I suggest we outlaw pre-TBC items like [Might of the Scourge] due to sheer rarity. I do think we should continue to allow folk to pick any race (though all the winning setups will be Orc), any 2 professions for the BoP/unique items & enchants, and any faction alignment (Aldor vs Scryer).

Yes, I've posted a couple of "best DPS" options that leverage the +hit from from ImpFF & the Naxx shoulder enchants since they fell within the boundaries we were minmaxing for, but IMO both of these are sufficiently rare that it reduces this thread to an intellectual exercise, not something that we can point folk at to make best-in-slot decisions. Personally I'm happy to redo the experiment with revised parameters if it means the thread becomes more relevant and useful to a broad swathe of T6-level hunters.

We've had recurring issues trying to duplicate reported DPS #s, between all the gear/buff/debuff settings, hasted/nonhasted/DST shot rotations, etc. communicating a "MaxDPS" setup is non-trivial. I'm sure this will continue unless we have some consistent place to get the latest "official", validated results. In my opinion the best option is to keep the post at the top of the thread updated with a link to the spreadsheet download, if you need unmetered high-bandwidth hosting space send me a PM and I can get it hosted for you.

alienangel · 01/29/08, 4:07 PM

I think doing this over without the Imp FF assumption would be worth it. It's nice to know how huge a DPS boost Imp FF is, but most of us will never have that debuff up reliably during a raid.

And I think some of us have done versions of optimal gear without Imp FF already ^_^.

The central hosted xls to work off would be nice though, I'm not even going to try starting a .40 spreadsheet from scratch and trying to duplicate your settings before making my changes.

I don't think the Naxx shoulder enchant is that bad though, it's ironically easier to get than Imp FF, and it just amounts to slightly more ap/crit, which is fundamentally different from Imp FF (since that effectively lowers our hit cap, which is far from the case with higher AP/crit).

Midnight · 01/30/08, 5:58 AM

Alright than, let's change the original parameters to not include imp FF. I hope Kamaa, who didn't comment on the subject yet, doesn't mind either.
Concerning the hosting space: unless I find an easier way I´ll contact Vaxum today. I also encourage everyone to send me his or her version of the spreadsheet to midnight.wow@gmx.de if the dps exceeds those posted in the first post.

Haroc · 01/30/08, 4:22 PM

Concerning the talent build in the first post, could you motivate the point in Beastial Swiftness instead of another point in Improved Mend Pet?
Also why would you put two points in Improved Arcane Shot instead of two points in Rapid Killing?

kaapis · 01/31/08, 9:13 AM

I have real problems with Cheeky's spreadsheet. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea, and it can be useful. However, its '50 shots' means that mana is unaccounted at all, and means that its dps numbers are way out of whack with reality. The spreadsheet rewards the hunters that spend the majority of their boss fights in Auto Shot because they ran out of many 45 seconds into the fight :/

Also, some effects are simply averaged out over all 50 shots instead of being truly represented as burst of DPS boosts.

I know why these choices were made, to help make the formulas manageable, but it is still frustrating that mana plays no role in the spreadsheet when it is so critical to a hunter, especially in boss fights (or any fight that last more than a couple of minutes).

Thelegend · 01/31/08, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by kaapis

I have real problems with Cheeky's spreadsheet. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea, and it can be useful. However, its '50 shots' means that mana is unaccounted at all, and means that its dps numbers are way out of whack with reality. The spreadsheet rewards the hunters that spend the majority of their boss fights in Auto Shot because they ran out of many 45 seconds into the fight :/

Also, some effects are simply averaged out over all 50 shots instead of being truly represented as burst of DPS boosts.

I know why these choices were made, to help make the formulas manageable, but it is still frustrating that mana plays no role in the spreadsheet when it is so critical to a hunter, especially in boss fights (or any fight that last more than a couple of minutes).

Don't use it then?

Cheeky · 01/31/08, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by kaapis

I have real problems with Cheeky's spreadsheet. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea, and it can be useful. However, its '50 shots' means that mana is unaccounted at all, and means that its dps numbers are way out of whack with reality. The spreadsheet rewards the hunters that spend the majority of their boss fights in Auto Shot because they ran out of many 45 seconds into the fight :/

Also, some effects are simply averaged out over all 50 shots instead of being truly represented as burst of DPS boosts.

I know why these choices were made, to help make the formulas manageable, but it is still frustrating that mana plays no role in the spreadsheet when it is so critical to a hunter, especially in boss fights (or any fight that last more than a couple of minutes).

I provide time till OOM and how much mana usage you have. I trust you (and others) have the ability to change rotations to see if you are better off with a lower DPS, higher DPM rotation. The spreadsheet is a comparison tool, not a combat simulator.

Glaurong · 01/31/08, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by kaapis

I have real problems with Cheeky's spreadsheet. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea, and it can be useful. However, its '50 shots' means that mana is unaccounted at all, and means that its dps numbers are way out of whack with reality. The spreadsheet rewards the hunters that spend the majority of their boss fights in Auto Shot because they ran out of many 45 seconds into the fight :/

Also, some effects are simply averaged out over all 50 shots instead of being truly represented as burst of DPS boosts.

I know why these choices were made, to help make the formulas manageable, but it is still frustrating that mana plays no role in the spreadsheet when it is so critical to a hunter, especially in boss fights (or any fight that last more than a couple of minutes).

Also depends on what spec you are and if your raid is good about remembering mana demands. I always have Blessing of Wisdom, Resto Shaman Mana Spring, Major Mageblood, Mana Oil. 75% of the time we have Judgment of Wisdom up and we just found a spot for a Ret paladin so that will go up to 100% hopefully.

That, combined with super mana potions gives me an inexhaustible supply of mana as a BM hunter and our SV hunters don't complain much either.

• Intermission · 02/01/08, 1:11 AM

Any chance of a detailed list of what's allowed and not allowed in regards to buffs/settings/etc on the first post?

I ask this because the dps of my regular raid gear shows me at 2138 and all my settings match the vague paramaters in the first post. Yet the current highest is 2020ish?

List of every variable I can think of:

- Averaged out trinkets/wrath/bloodfury/etc: YES
- Custom Target settings:
6200 armor (a common low armor boss amount)
Level 73
0 Resil
Other Type (not a human or beast etc).
- Spell Ranks:
True Shot Aura 4
Aspect of the Hawk 8
Serpent Sting 10
Arcane Shot 9
Multi Shot 6
Hunter's Mark 4
Steady Shot 1
Kill Command 0
Aimed Shot 7
- Rotation:
1:1 priority (Multi above steady - no arcane)
0.2 seconds latency (I wish...)
- Regular 41/20 BM build
- Including pet damage
- Buffs:
Kings
Might (full improved)
AB
MOTW (full improved)
Flask of Assault
Warp Burger
- Pet Buffs same as hunter except 20 STR food
- List of NO's:
NO totems
NO Leader of the Pack
NO scrolls
NO other TSA or other imp hunters mark
NO Expose Armor
NO Battle Shout
NO Battle Shout
- Target Debuffs:
5 Sunders
CoR
FF (not talented)
- Pet:
Ravager
Bite->Gore priority
- Spreadsheet version .40

And I cant think of anything else.

The stuff I lised was what I used. I'm not even using 2x Daggers Of Bad Mojo, or Illidan Helm etc.

So what rules did I break to give me this dps?

Midnight · 02/01/08, 4:01 AM

Well I guess the biggest diffrence is the low Target Armor.

Originally Posted by Midnight

All the other DPS relevant Data like Armor, Target Debuffs etc should stay at the default values as they're pretty representative for typical average raid conditions already.

Default value for Target Armor is 7700 which is kind of the average boss armor. Lowering this to 6200 on current Best-DPS sheet yields a 2260 dps rate. Another minor diffrence is that I´m not including food buffs for either the hunter or the pet. Basically you can just download the spreadsheet posted in the first post of this page or the unaltered version from Cheeky and keep all the settings beside the gear, shot rotations, talents, pet and those mentioned in my post.

• Intermission · 02/01/08, 4:35 AM

Originally Posted by Midnight

Well I guess the biggest diffrence is the low Target Armor.

Default value for Target Armor is 7700 which is kind of the average boss armor. Lowering this to 6200 on current Best-DPS sheet yields a 2260 dps rate. Another minor diffrence is that I´m not including food buffs for either the hunter or the pet. Basically you can just download the spreadsheet posted in the first post of this page or the unaltered version from Cheeky and keep all the settings beside the gear, shot rotations, talents, pet and those mentioned in my post.

Ah that explains it. I thought armor was pretty much split between 6200 on some bosses and 7700 on others. Figured I'd help myself to the tastier option when choosing the target boss (Azgalor).

This is where I got the numbers from: http://elitistjerks.com/496799-post8.html

Fun idea btw! I'm gunna go tweaking now that I know that standard.

I'm curious tho, why no food? Such a cheap buff I use it on almost every boss. Pet food I admit I very rarely use though. And our pallies fail, no imp Might!

.

Midnight · 02/01/08, 5:06 AM

Well to be honest I didn´t really put that much thought in my initial settings of parameters. That beeing said I think unlike the 3% additional hit rate due to improved FF the usage of buff food won´t have much of an impact on the gear selection anyway. That is I don´t think any of the proposed settings here would gain much more or less by using buff foods than the others do. The only thing that´s really important is that everyone uses the same parameters so the results stay comparable.