The criteria should really be further restricted by professions. Any raiding hunter who is serious about dps is going to get LW for drums. The question should be JC vs Enchanting. Also 80 haste should be included in the "Hand Adjust" category really, as it has a big affect on the overall setup.
well if the drums gets added, then I don't see the need to restric it further. Some ppl do actually have jc and enchanting, so picking between 2 of any profession seems fair.
The criteria should really be further restricted by professions. Any raiding hunter who is serious about dps is going to get LW for drums. The question should be JC vs Enchanting. Also 80 haste should be included in the "Hand Adjust" category really, as it has a big affect on the overall setup.
The thread as far as I know is about highest personal DPS, not highest raid DPS. There's no reason to set restrictions on professions just because most hunters will have one particular profession - if it turns out some other profession yields higher personal DPS there's no reason to say the best possible DPS configuration in the spreadsheet can't use that profession instead of LW.
The criteria should really be further restricted by professions. Any raiding hunter who is serious about dps is going to get LW for drums. The question should be JC vs Enchanting. Also 80 haste should be included in the "Hand Adjust" category really, as it has a big affect on the overall setup.
- Except if their professions is needed elsewhere
Originally Posted by alienangel
The thread as far as I know is about highest personal DPS, not highest raid DPS. There's no reason to set restrictions on professions just because most hunters will have one particular profession - if it turns out some other profession yields higher personal DPS there's no reason to say the best possible DPS configuration in the spreadsheet can't use that profession instead of LW.
- What is the point of best personal survival dps if the end setup ends up giving the raid less overall damage? (i know this is not what your quote is about, but the issue is related now you bring up the best personal dps criteria)
I think we need a new version of this thread. Since Cheeky has kindly given us a version 49 of the spreadsheet, which even has some dps numbers for each item individually. While this works in theory, I find that different gear combinations show more dps increase than their individual stats suggest.
Using version 49 and as a jewelcrafter (but not an enchanter since I'm not) I have come up with 2721.49 total theoretical dps (including pet).
I have a Windserpent pet using only Lightning breath, and a 3:2 rotation (since that is what I normally use) and I have full raid buffs, pet buffs, and target debuffs (since this is just in theory)
I find that the madness trinket isn't that great, if you can make up the hit elsewhere.
2721.49 DPS
This is the gear I used (Use enchants that are most appropriate):
Shiv of Exsanguination
Shiv of Exsanguination
Duplicitous Guise (Del Crim spi) (Relentless Earthstorm)
Hard Khorium Choker (Glint Pyre)
Gronnstalker's Spaulders (Smooth Lion) (Shifting Shadowsong)
Shadowmoon's Destroyer's Drape
Bladed Chaos Tunic (Shift Shadow) (Smooth Lion) (Crim Sun)
Gronnstalker's Bracers (Del Crim)
Gloves of Immortal Dusk (2x Del Crim)
Gronnstalker's Belt (Del Crim)
Leggings of the Immortal Night (3xCrim Spin)
Gronnstalker's Boots (Stone of Blades)
Angelista's Revenge
Band Of Ruinous Delight
Dragonspire Trophy
Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness
Thor'idal The Stars' Fury
- What is the point of best personal survival dps if the end setup ends up giving the raid less overall damage? (i know this is not what your quote is about, but the issue is related now you bring up the best personal dps criteria)
The point is that the spreadsheet this thread is centered around has nothing to do with raid dps, it does not even attempt to quantify it (nor should it). The only thing it does quantify is personal DPS, and bringing in things like the raid contribution of drums or EW is largely irrelevant to the thread (I'm sure discussion of these is relevant, but making rules requiring raid DPS considerations is not).
If someone wants to use the thread to post the best personal DPS setups for Survival and MM hunters instead of just the personal DPS setup (which currently always means BM), I don't think there would be serious objections - but recording the best raid DPS setup is not useful, since I'm sure that would recommend everyone be survival, with LW. The survival thread already has people posting their best Raid DPS setups.
The point is that the spreadsheet this thread is centered around has nothing to do with raid dps, it does not even attempt to quantify it (nor should it). The only thing it does quantify is personal DPS, and bringing in things like the raid contribution of drums or EW is largely irrelevant to the thread (I'm sure discussion of these is relevant, but making rules requiring raid DPS considerations is not).
If someone wants to use the thread to post the best personal DPS setups for Survival and MM hunters instead of just the personal DPS setup (which currently always means BM), I don't think there would be serious objections - but recording the best raid DPS setup is not useful, since I'm sure that would recommend everyone be survival, with LW. The survival thread already has people posting their best Raid DPS setups.
Well, you kinda outlined my reasons for bringing this up in your reply, knowingly or not.
There could never be a recommendation for everyone to be SV. Its just not possible. Well, not unless every guild would always bring 1 and just 1 hunter to an encounter. MM - well, enough said. BM, thats when you are not the SV which in turn means the majority. Which brings me back to my original question really. Personal dps does not kill bosses, raid dps does. So your dps is actually your personal dps+what you bring to the raid.
So, if this thread is about the best setups, it should really be about the best setups. For bm it is easy, since best setup equals best personal dps as the raid contribution (group FI) is static. But for SV it is not, its all about the balance (and raid setup). I really cannot see where finding the best theoretical SV setup would not be useful ^^
And for such a setup you could also without too much effort outline a standard setup in terms of people benefitting and thus a formula for the EW component to add on top of the spreadsheat dps. Then you will end up with a raw total number for comparison, as the aim of this thread is.
Edit:
- And your last line: Yes, but thats raid setups. Raid setups vary across guilds. Either you most often run with enough physical dps to warrant a survival hunter, or you dont. If you dont there is no point looking at sv setups at all. If you do, then there is every point in finding the best gear setup for the best benefit. And there will be an average of physical dps benefitting from ew across high end guilds to fit the equation to add to the cheeky total.
So, if this thread is about the best setups, it should really be about the best setups. For bm it is easy, since best setup equals best personal dps as the raid contribution (group FI) is static. But for SV it is not, its all about the balance (and raid setup). I really cannot see where finding the best theoretical SV setup would not be useful ^^
And for such a setup you could also without too much effort outline a standard setup in terms of people benefitting and thus a formula for the EW component to add on top of the spreadsheat dps. Then you will end up with a raw total number for comparison, as the aim of this thread is.
I didn't say finding the best theoretical SV setup wouldn't be useful though ^_^;; I said the spreadsheet doesn't quantify raid DPS, so arguing about it in a thread predicated on posting spreadsheet-validable (OT: if you know what the verb for that is supposed to be, please PM me >.>) gear setups is pointless, since you can't point to any such output on the spreadsheet.
More to the point, the spreadsheet can't give anything other than a rough estimate of raid dps, since you can't expect it to take inputs for the class, gear, spec and behaviour of every person in your group and your raid, model their DPS as well as yours, and calculate what effect drums/EW has on it. The best it can really do is something like "EW dps = [number of decent melee] * 0.6 * [EW Value]". Until now the spreadsheet has dealt in absolutes, not estimates (afaik the only estimates still in it are the small shortcuts on DST/Madness PPM, and maybe QuickShots uptime), and sticking in a rule of thumb like EW contribution would be slightly icky.
I didn't say finding the best theoretical SV setup wouldn't be useful though ^_^;; I said the spreadsheet doesn't quantify raid DPS, so arguing about it in a thread predicated on posting spreadsheet-validable (OT: if you know what the verb for that is supposed to be, please PM me >.>) gear setups is pointless, since you can't point to any such output on the spreadsheet.
More to the point, the spreadsheet can't give anything other than a rough estimate of raid dps, since you can't expect it to take inputs for the class, gear, spec and behaviour of every person in your group and your raid, model their DPS as well as yours, and calculate what effect drums/EW has on it. The best it can really do is something like "EW dps = [number of decent melee] * 0.6 * [EW Value]". Until now the spreadsheet has dealt in absolutes, not estimates (afaik the only estimates still in it are the small shortcuts on DST/Madness PPM, and maybe QuickShots uptime), and sticking in a rule of thumb like EW contribution would be slightly icky.
Well, the first page frame conditions already makes several assumptions, so making an assumption for a standard raid setup (ew formula) wouldnt feel too awkward or icky in my book. It would ofcourse have to be calculated and posted alongside the spreadsheet result for the final result. But ah well. At least we can agree on disagreeing
I think we need a new version of this thread. Since Cheeky has kindly given us a version 49 of the spreadsheet, which even has some dps numbers for each item individually. While this works in theory, I find that different gear combinations show more dps increase than their individual stats suggest.
Using version 49 and as a jewelcrafter (but not an enchanter since I'm not) I have come up with 2721.49 total theoretical dps (including pet).
I have a Windserpent pet using only Lightning breath, and a 3:2 rotation (since that is what I normally use) and I have full raid buffs, pet buffs, and target debuffs (since this is just in theory)
I find that the madness trinket isn't that great, if you can make up the hit elsewhere.
2721.49 DPS
This is the gear I used (Use enchants that are most appropriate):
Shiv of Exsanguination
Shiv of Exsanguination
Duplicitous Guise (Del Crim spi) (Relentless Earthstorm)
Hard Khorium Choker (Glint Pyre)
Gronnstalker's Spaulders (Smooth Lion) (Shifting Shadowsong)
Shadowmoon's Destroyer's Drape
Bladed Chaos Tunic (Shift Shadow) (Smooth Lion) (Crim Sun)
Gronnstalker's Bracers (Del Crim)
Gloves of Immortal Dusk (2x Del Crim)
Gronnstalker's Belt (Del Crim)
Leggings of the Immortal Night (3xCrim Spin)
Gronnstalker's Boots (Stone of Blades)
Angelista's Revenge
Band Of Ruinous Delight
Dragonspire Trophy
Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness
Thor'idal The Stars' Fury
-Tronar
well unlike everyone else you have actually used the legendary bow for starters. Dont have time right now to put in your minimal changes into my SS but will do it later when I get home. Can't imagine you'll get more than 300 dps increase through switching a cloak, a trinket and yes the bow is good, but still.
Race: Night Elf
Weapon: Halberd of Desolation with Major Agility
Head: Gronnstalker's Helmet with Glyph of Ferocity (+12agi, Relentless metagem)
Neck: Choker of Endless Nightmares
Shoulders: Gronnstalker's Spaulders with Greater Vengeance (+10crit, +10ap/2mp5)
Cloak: Shadowmoon Destroyers Drape with Greater Agility
Chest: Gronnstalker's Chestguard with +6stats (+12agi, +10crit, +12hit)
Wrist: Bracers of the Pathfinder with with Assault (+10ap/2mp5)
Hands: Gronnstalker's Gloves with Superior Agility (+12agi)
Waist: Boneweave Girdle
Legs: Gronnstalker's Leggings with Nethercobra (+12agi)
Feet: Softstep Boots of Tracking with Dexterity
Ring1: Band of the Eternal Champion
Ring2: Angelista's Revenge
Trinket1: Berserker's Call
Trinket2: Dragonspine Trophy
Quiver of a Thousand Feathers with Timeless Arrows
This is fully MH/BT geared with hitcap.
Buffs are: Kings, Might, Int, Sta, GotW, Assault flask & Warp Burger (no pet buffs, shouldn't matter)
I did the following testings, the Total DPS was, as a BM Hunter
With Crossbow of Relentless Strikers & 1:1 rotation: 1376,16 DPS
With Black Bow of the Betrayer & 1:1 rotation: 1356,12 DPS
With Bristleblitz Striker & 1;1 rotation: 1361,79 DPS
So far, this should look right. People saying that the Crossbow is the best BM Hunter weapon pre-Sunwell are right. But...
Crossbow of Relentless Strikers & 3:2 rotation: 1397,31 DPS
Black Bow of the Betrayer & 3:2 rotation: 1409,36 DPS
Bristleblitz Striker & 3:2 rotation: 1415,26 DPS
So what does this mean to the theorycrafters? Does this mean Bristleblitz Striker is superior to Crossbow after all, or is it a mistake in the spreadsheet?
The Bristle is often better than the X-bow. It depends on your haste, more specifically, it often depends solely on whether or not you have the DST. With the DST Bristle is almost always better. If you have further questions you might try directing them to the BM hunter thread or the hunter help thread. This one is less directed towards help and more so to maximum theoretical DPS.
well unlike everyone else you have actually used the legendary bow for starters. Dont have time right now to put in your minimal changes into my SS but will do it later when I get home. Can't imagine you'll get more than 300 dps increase through switching a cloak, a trinket and yes the bow is good, but still.
I didn't read where we weren't using the Legendary bow. My bad. Again, I was using Cheeky's newest SS (49) also, since he said he fixed a lot of small problems in that version.
As for madness, I can't find a good way to make it better than DST and Ashtongue. I realize hit is sometimes hard to make up, but I just don't see it as a great trinket.
To help you out, my buffs are as follows:
Every hunter buff except True Shot Aura (who takes a MM to a raid anymore), and no scroll of agility (which if added puts me at 2739.28 dps) warp burger and flask of relentless.
I've also added all the pet buffs (which are a bit unrealistic, but this is only theorycraft anyway). (once again leaving out the agility scroll and TSA)
I also put all the Debuffs except Improved Hunter's Mark, curse of Recklessness (which alone puts me at 2885.78), and curse of shadows (which doesn't affect us)
I used Hawk in shot rotation with a 3:2 "hand-weaved) with .2 sec latency. I have the quickshots at 3:2 also, where if I changed it to 1:1 (steady) it would also up my dps a bit. (2752.68).
Haven't really messed with the DST settings since they kind of confuse me.
So If I add the agility scrolls (me and pet), and the curse of recklessness debuff, plus change quick shots to a 1:1 my total DPS output is 2942.67.
If I then changed back to Golden Bow i still get 2804.68 with all the buffs.
Still pretty uber considering that this doesn't add the Drums (which we all use in my guild) nor Bloodlust. Again, this is just in theory and I like to see the big numbers. I'm just curious if anyone else can post a larger theoretical DPS so I don't strive for the wrong gear (we are doing Sunwell now).
Just saw the MMO-champion post about the confirmed gear off of Kil'jaeden and I set up custom the new gloves and cloak (using all the new buffs mentioned in my previous post) and I came up with: 2968.57 total dps
hunter dps 2262.36
ranged crit 46.65%
ranged hit 99.88%
New Gloves with Del Crim Spinel and Glint Pyrestone. New Cloak with Rigid Lionseye.
This is with the Legendary bow. Once again, just trying to see what the top number can be in Cheeky's SS. Pretty crazy numbers.
If you want positive responses you might try posting within the guidelines set in the original post. Without that, you are adding nothing to the thread and simply posting inflated numbers.
With the gear out of the way, i have assumed a "Typical" raid setup of 8 Physical DPS (2-3 Rogues, 1 Enhance Shaman, Ret Pally,
DPS Warrior, 2-3 Hunters (inc myself)) and also 3 Tanks, i.e., 1-2 F Druid, 1-2 Prot Warrior.
According to the Spreadsheet my EW AP is 292, with a 99% up time. According to many EW Calculators, this EW AP results into the following:
292.41 * 98.99% uptime = 289.45 AP to the raid. Since this spec has Imp. Hunters Mark aswell, thats another 110 AP to melee, so for melee the total AP is 399.45 AP, and to ranged it remains @ 289.45.
For Physical DPS, the Increase in DPS for the physical clases is around;
399.45 * 0.3 * 5 = 599.18 DPS (Based of 5 Melee clases, outlined above)
289.45 * 0.3 * 3 = 260.51 DPS (Based of 3 Hunters)
399.45 * 0.15 * 3 = 179.75 DPS (Based of 3 Pets being active, aka 3 hunters)
399.45 * 0.05 * 3 = 59.92 DPS (Based of 3 Tanks, this is only in terms of DPS tho, not Threat)
So when they are all added up, they result in 1099.36 DPS for the raid.
So in total, this SV Build brings;
Hunter Total DPS 2384.34
Total Raid DPS 3482.70
(Plz Note; the EW Calc's are very rough as it generalises classes that would make more use out of straight AP then other classes)
I look forward to any1 else lending there mind to Maximising SV DPS!
Edit: Swapped [Item not found!] in the Shoulders for the [Design: Delicate Crimson Spinel] in the boots. Thanks to TheSkilledOne, for pointing this out.
Edit: Corrected the AP to raid based off having Imp. Hunter's Mark. Thanks to Ramsess, for pointing this out.
So the only buff included is the agility elixir, no raid or party buffs right? Also, what is the time until oom? Finally, thanks for doing this.
Yes, the only buff is agility elixir, NOTHING else. Like i said @ the top of the post it would be greatly increased with group synergy, etc. The mp5 used in in this 345. Now following this guidelines set @ the beginning of this thread, i have not included any buffs like Wisdom, Weapon oils, Major Mageblood, etc. So time to oom as it stands is just under 2 minutes. However, with Wisdom, Weapon Oil, Major Mageblood and a Shaman in your group it goes up to just under 3 minutes. But @ this level of gear we known when to chug mana pots, etc. If Judge Wisdom was on the boss the time to oom is greatly incresed, up to 27 minutes infact, which is more then enough for any Sunwell boss we have seen yet (ie, dont know Kiljaeden encounter, as my guild is still on M'uru)
Alright, I'm trying to shut up certain hunters in my guild. 1 agility = 1 ranged ap. It's roughly 1 crit for every 35 agility. What is the ratio between crit rating and crit percentage? And yeah I'm not a hunter, I'm just trying to get them to stop rolling on certain pieces of garbage.
Alright, I'm trying to shut up certain hunters in my guild. 1 agility = 1 ranged ap. It's roughly 1 crit for every 35 agility. What is the ratio between crit rating and crit percentage? And yeah I'm not a hunter, I'm just trying to get them to stop rolling on certain pieces of garbage.
This is kinda the wrong thread for Q&A, but you base assumption of 1 Agility equating to 1 Attack Power is correct. However, the DPS gained from 1 Agility is greater then the DPS gained from 2 Attack Power, once Kings is applied. So without knowing which items they're rolling on, I can't tell you if they're garbage or not. But a lot of the Sunwell leather is especially tasty.
Alright, I'm trying to shut up certain hunters in my guild. 1 agility = 1 ranged ap. It's roughly 1 crit for every 35 agility. What is the ratio between crit rating and crit percentage? And yeah I'm not a hunter, I'm just trying to get them to stop rolling on certain pieces of garbage.
Things work roughly like this for hunters. It sometimes changes based on hit/haste cap, but this will give you a pretty good understanding of why hunters want your leather pieces, which are the best in socket.
1 Haste > 1 Hit > 1 Agility > 1 Crit ~= 2 AP ~= 7 Armor Pen
This can also be affected by the amount of armor pen they already have. Stacking armor pen is huge.
In the future, if you have any other questions, you may be better off directing them to the hunter help thread, this thread is not really designed for answering questions.
Alright, sorry about that. Thanks for the answers. And yeah it was some time back and she rolled on the Ancestral Ring of Conquest from Lurker >.> She replaced Garona's Signet Ring with it.
Alright, sorry about that. Thanks for the answers. And yeah it was some time back and she rolled on the Ancestral Ring of Conquest from Lurker >.> She replaced Garona's Signet Ring with it.
Str on the other hand is absolutely useless for a hunter. That hunter should be slapped.
05/09/08, 6:18 AM
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