Howitzer

This is an informational compliation of the Marksmanship playstyle, specifically, and is a work in progress. I hope you enjoy!

Introduction

Most Hunters, (and rightfully so), specialize into Beast Mastery and / or Survival for maximum DPS potential or benefit of the overall raid. The Hunter class itself is quite unique, (screwed), in that we are the only class that has 3 very different ways of playing via the 3 talent trees, and yet we are only offered 1 type of armor set for PVP and PVE raiding. Most of you know that the requirements for hit rating for BM and MM builds do not apply to the Survival tree because of surefooted, nor does the survival or BM tree rely more on INT stats and/or MP5 as the MM tree does. The amount of agility on gear to a MM hunter, (while still very important), is not "AS" important as it is to a Survival spec Hunter because of Expose weakness, the LR talent, and the flip-flop of higher scaling RAP in MM vs higher scaling AGI in Surv. Both specs, very different, require different tweaking of stats, gear, consumables, and overall playstyle. Because of these variables throughout each talent tree we have to make informed decisions on what types of gear to select, what kind of shot rotations we will use, what type of group make-up we'll shine in, what we can offer to a raid, PVP, and so on and so forth.

What I will discuss here specifically isn't so much number-crunch, but a more hands-on approach to explaining the playstyle of Marksmanship in PVE and PVP assuming you are a fresh level 70 Hunter.

Itemization & When to go Marks?

The success of the MM spec is definitely gear dependant. The primary stats you want to look for when crafting, looting, or purchasing gear is as follows, (in order of importance):

1) Hit Rating (if not maxed)
2) Agility
3) Crit Rating
3) Attack Power
4) Intellect
5) Stamina
6) Mp/5

If your hit-rating is max or damn near to it you should not be afraid to spec into MM and try it. While the DPS potential from T4 content to T5 will not equal the damage output of BM spec, the MM tree will begin to show its prowess beyond this point and especially in PVP. The choice to go Marksman for you should be solely based on what your RAP / CRIT / HIT is currently at, (or what your raid really needs). If you're hovering below 2000 Ranged attack power as Marksman and have less than 120 ~ or so hit rating (not yet capped) and less than 20-23% crit I would re-consider your gear choices and stick with either a Hybrid MM/SURV build (or go with Beast Mastery until you raise the bar in terms of gear.

You will notice that T4,5,6 and all off-set pieces are VERY tailored to the Marksman spec. Why Blizzard did this? No one really knows. What I do know is that if you like the MM spec, you'll probably love T6. T5 is very nice for Beast Mastery, but still has sufficient power to perform with MM quite well. The benefit of Marks Hunters seeking upgrades is they do not have to cringe as much with a heavier INT number on items since it translates a portion into RAP. On the other hand the Survival hunter will try to stay away from that more since they don't use nearly as much mana from ToTH and get no benefit from Careful Aim. You just have to remember that no other tree is as mana-intensive as Marks is, you have to balance yourself between AGI/INT/STAM and don't neglect any 1 stat too much.

You will NOT get exceptional performance with sub-par gear as a Marks Hunter like you would with Beast Mastery. Leave that misconception at the door. Big numbers do NOT equal big DPS.

Choosing Your Talents

Recommended Marksman builds for PVE:

1) 7/48/6 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
---< or >---
19/42/0 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
---< or >---
15/43/3 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This build focuses on DPS keeping raiding in mind as well as occassional PVP. I really enjoy having builds that will perform well in both cases to avoid constant respecs without gimping myself in either. Nothing is worse than constantly respecializing your talents and its a quick way to become broke. Both specs assume you have ample hit points, hit gear, don't care for trapping, savage strikes, or monster-slaying. Some people will argue that monster-slaying should be a part of a PVE build... I will tell you that the only damn thing you'll find this useful on is Gruul. You'll find Humanoid Slaying useful in PVP as well as PVE in SSC / TK.

Recommended Marksman builds for PVP Arena:

2) 0/45/16 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This build takes away lots of sustained DPS potential in exchange for survivability and is built to annoy the opponents as much as possible. You don't have the mana conservation talents and sacrifice that for stuns, dazing, trapping, hit points, improved SS/Viper, and higher use of Arcane shot. I personally never use a spec like this because I am not hardcore into the PVP Arena scene. I'd only say blow your respec cost on this build if you're dedicated to arena play.

Recommended "Hybrid" build for PVE:

3) 0/36/25 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
---< or >---
4) 0/31/30 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

These two specs are excellent for Hunters that enjoy the playstyle of Marksmanship but do NOT have the gear to support it. It improves your gaps in gear in the following areas:

a) Lack of Hit-Rating
b) Lack of Crit percentage
c) Lack of Hit Points

While you will not have as much attack power as a full MM spec and will not have bigger numbers you will have a much higher chance to hit and will crit much more often. Both of these builds play similar but obviously the 31/30 build will shine better with a higher amount of agility while 36/25 will be better if you have a high INT count on your gear. I would say choose one of them depending on where you stand in terms of itemization. You can use these talent specs until you find yourself comfortable enough to move to a full marks build. The choice is yours. Obviously some of the talent choices are personal preference. You're always going to have a little "filler" in terms of early tier survival talents like savage strikes vs imp. wing clip or entrapment. All this is up to YOU. But the core abilities related to DPS shouldn't change.

The Marksman Shot Rotation

This is such a common topic that is asked so often its mind-boggling. The problem isn't that it is complicated, the problem is that Hunters go from level 1-61 using a certain set of shots and abilities and their world is turned upside-down at 62 with the introduction of steady shot. A lot of Hunters break down and choose the easy route of macroing steady shot and auto shot mixing in Kill Command. This is not the way a marksman hunter will play in PVE.

Rotated shots (mana permitting):

a) Arcane Shot
b) Steady Shot
c) Multi-Shot

The "best" speed for Marksmanship is 2.9-3.0 speed. Gone are the days of 3.4 speed bows, (oh how I miss Ashjre'Thul, Crossbow of Smiting). Having said that, you are going to have to start a fight with either an Auto Shot, or a multi-shot, or Arcane shot, it really doesn't matter and it all depends on if you can use multi at the time or not. We still, to this day, use Multi-shot as a primary dps ability for single-target DPS. This is because as a Marksman you have 6 talent points invested into the skill and it will do more damage than any other shot you have except Aimed shot which isn't used in shot rotations. It is a vital component to MM DPS. If you followed my talent build you will have 4 points in Improved Arcane shot which will lessen the gap of "dead-time" that you are waiting for a shot to come off cooldown.

VIDEO Example of long-fight using MM shot rotations:
Stage6 � Marksman VS Illidan�-�Video and Download���HowitzerFubar

The trick to proper shot rotation is always having an arrow coming off your bow at a 1:1.5 ratio. NOTE: You are not always going to be firing off 2 specials in between each autoshot cooldown, there is always going to be a bit of variation. What you'll generally see is as follows: I usually start off with either a multi or arcane, allow autoshots to fire and then rotate steadys in between using cooldowns whenever they are up. (If you time things correctly you'll have points where you'll notice 3 shots hitting almost at the same time)

Variations are fine but the general idea is you'll be using 1:1.5 i.e. - A shot rotation with more than 1 special per 1 Auto Shot, or 3 specials per 2 Auto Shots, (you get the drift). This changes based on your latency, your bow speed, your mana consumption, the duration of a fight, and so on. YOU have to dynamically choose which shots will work and when.

Example 1: I am not going to be spamming multi-shot and arcane shot when I am at 20% mana. I will, without thinking, immediately switch to a 1:1 Steady shot / Auto Shot rotation knowing that if I do not I will simply go OOM and my DPS will dwindle to nothing.

Example 2: My Arcane shot, Multi-shot, are on cool-down with less than 2 seconds before one of them will refresh. Auto shot is also on its very short delay. I have a choice of "waiting" for a shot to come up or fire, or, I can use my Silencing Shot for 50% damage output at the cost of mana. Yes, I have many times used Silencing shot as a very fast "filler" before repeating my shot rotation, its one of the nice things Marksmen have vs other builds, an extra instant-shot every 30 sec when needed. While this doesn't happen often, it definitely helps fill the gap if necessary.

In closing, you never want to be waiting for something to do. You will always have to monitor your cooldowns, (I recommend getting Cooldown Counter), and manage your mana depending on what type of group setup you have.

Haste Gear, Yes or No?

I've tried using large amounts of haste gear with a Marks build and I'd advise against it. It really can screw up your shot rotations. It can be hard enough to juggle your Improved Aspect of the Hawk proc in-addition-to your Rapid fire. When you factor those in and add haste gear to the equation it turns into a mess. The other problem with haste gear is that its iLVL points budget is way-too-high for what its worth. You're better off getting gear with crit/agi and other stats that will benefit you more than the haste on an item. Overall, if you're Marks, forget about haste gear beyond what your talent gives you, and, of course, the only exception, is the Dragonspine Trophy trinket. Using that item is good if you have no access to end-game trinkets like Tsunami Talisman or Madness of the Betrayer.

Ideal Group Composition

Since you're Marksman, you're pretty damn useless to the majority of others grouped with you considering the Trueshot Aura is stuck at a dismal 125AP. If you group with a rogue or warrior they might appreciate it, but who needs them? I don't. =) You want to be grouped with a Shadow Priest, Feral Druid and/or a Shaman. While it is unrealistic to think you'll have all 3 in a group, it is very important that you at least get yourself a Shadow Priest. Running out of mana as a MM is horrible. The only way to help yourself offset mana use is mana oils, fel mana potions, and timing the use of them right when you're down 3200 mana, not when you're almost dry.

I've found that the 5% crit bonus from a Feral Druid translates to much more damage potential than a shaman dropping Grace of Air, (as MM). Some will definitely prefer the pairing of a Shaman+Shadow Priest over this because of Mana Tide, GOA, etc, and overall better mana regen. Its really going to end up being in the hands of the raid leader and how they choose to manage grouping of Hunters, (which as you all know isn't always pretty).

Buffing Priorities, Consumables & Threat

You're going to have threat problems, this is a given. Your hits are going to be huge, fast, and powerful. Consider yourself a ranged MS warrior, because thats pretty much what a MM hunter is. You need Salv, believe it or not, and you're going to want to prioritize Blessing of Might over Kings for DPS if you don't have the option of having both. Using Omen / KTM is a must. Managing your threat levels is just as important as managing your shot rotations. Nothing can aggrevate someone more in a raid than a stupid Hunter that constantly pulls aggro. You will, more than survival or BM, be the master of Misdirection. No other spec will build more threat on those initial 3 shots than a Marks Hunter, and thats a GOOD THING! Switch targets often in multiple mob scenarios on trash if you have several tanks. If your Feign Death resists, hold off, or move to a new target before starting up again.

As far as consumables go, you're going to want to use the following in order of importance:

Flasks / Elixirs:

1) Flask of Relentless Assault or:
2) Elixir of Major Agility + Draenic Wisdom / MP5 Elixir
3) Ravager Dogs
4) Hit-Rating food (if not capped)
5) Mana Oils on weaponry
6) Blackened Sporefish

Potions:

1) Fel Mana (expensive)
2) Super Mana Potions (at the least)

Hunters that spend their money on consumables, (and I mean ammunition, too), are the ones that are going to shine and stick out from the crowd. You all know that Hunters are the easiest class to play, hardest to master. They are also the easiest class to hate because you can so-easily make life miserable for a raid or small group.

Tips & Tricks

1) Viewing distance, in my opinion, is absolutely vital being a Hunter. It doesn't matter whether its PVP or PVE. The more information you have on your screen around you the better off you're going to be at making fast decisions and t his really goes for any Hunter build not just MM related. I recommend typing the following in-game: /console CameraDistanceMaxFactor 4 or go get oTweaks, makes CVar commands ez-mode.

This is a beautiful, (not really well-known), option to really increase your zoom ability and I've found it invaluable, especially in PVP.

2) Hot Key usage, I will go under the general assumption that some people do not customize their hotkeys much. Instead, playing with default controls or minimal customization. To this, as a Hunter, I'd have to say is a no-no. My current hot-key configuration is as follows, just for reference/example:

Keys:

Q - Initiates AutoShot
E - Scatter Shot
F - A macro that ties together Raptor Strike / Mongoose Bite (in case Mongoose is active for use.)
i.e. -
/cast Raptor Strike(rank)
/cast Mongoose Bite(rank)
G - Feign Death
1 - Silencing Shot
2 - Arcane Shot
3 - Steady Shot
4 - Multi-Shot
5 - Aimed Shot
Numbers 6,7,8,9, are bound to Q,E,F,G
Numpad: "+" bound for a macro tied into Blood Fury + Rapid Fire + Any active AP trinkets.
Numpad: "-" bound to Serpent Sting, only really used to annoy Rogues

Mouse Configuration:



Middle Mouse press - Pet Attack
Left Mouse front - Wing Clip
Left Mouse rear - Hunter's Mark

(yes, thats my mouse, go get one, they rock. Seriously.) RAZER® DIAMONDBACK.

Mouse-Turning / Mouse-look: Using WASD to turn is a big no-no as a Hunter, (hell, I'd say for any class). You should be doing jump-turns, and other fast movements with the use of the right mouse button for turns. If you're not used to doing that, get used to it. Hunters that use W,A,S,D or the arrow keys to turn should really try their best to break that habit.

In the end, everyone has their own setup and what they've become accustomed to over the years of playin WOW as a Hunter. But the most important thing is to have your main abilities very easily accessible at your fingertips so you can use them at any moment without having to glance, click, or wonder where the skill is, because if you do, you've already lost a fight, or screwed up in a raid.



---- Will add more later.

 

XG08Zero

first? amazing post howitzer!!!

I sometimes do kara with my PvP MM Spec and It's alot more fun than BM.

Anyway, questions I've always wanted to ask you -

Am I reading this wrong or is that a 1:1 Rotation? I thought 1:1.5 was the best to use?

And if 1:1.5 is the best rotation, which is what I always assumed, when would you use Rapid Fire. I can't pinpoint when you used it yourself in your video at all. I'm guessing save it for 20% or lower mana when you need to resort to a 1:1 rotation anyway, allowing Rapid Fire to close the weapon speed gap.

 

Wunlastri

It's 1:1.5, but is accounting for cooldown considering you don't clip or get latency screwed.
Since I have DST, I normally wait until I'm low AND it procs, switch to viper (if i havent already) and hit RF, weaving in specials or just 1:1ing if mana is too low.

 

Dreamflow

Howitzer, very nice post. But I remember doing a thread for MM hunters already(without a piece of theorycrafting) and you complained because there was a general theorycrafting thread already... :P

GJ nonetheless ^^

And as XG08 said, why using a 1.1 rotation as MM? For mana?

 

Howitzer

1:1.5 - always is the best to use for MM. I'll only go 1:1 when under mana constraints or when haste is too high i.e. - when IAoTH + RF is up for SS/AS rotations and MAYBE squeezing in multi if it won't mess things up. I edited it to be a little more clear.

 

intrepidos

Nice post, Howitzer.

Quick question, when you're hasted and using a 1:1 shot rotation, when exactly is it safe to use multi-shot without it messing up your rotation? Is it something you can distinguish through the current time of autoshot timer? Please fill us in!

 

Cheeky

Why take 5/5 IAotH in a PvE MM build? Is it purely for those times you are under 20% mana and drop to a 1:1 rotation? I'm almost positive your DPS in an unhasted 1:1.5 rotation will be better than your DPS in a 15% hasted 1:1 rotation. And if you have a 2.9-3.0 speed weapon the global cooldown negates any advantage of haste to a 1:1.5 rotation. It seems an odd thing to sink 5 points just to get to 2/2 Focused Fire.

Also, while you don't come out and say it, is it your belief that in T6 gear a primarily-MM build will out-DPS (in typical raid fights) a standard 41/20/0 build? I haven't seen WWS reports that indicate that, nor does the math behind our mechanics bear it out. I know some fights are pet unfriendly, but most DPS races are fine with your pet attacking almost 100% of the time.

You also touch on the group buff aspect of MM, but I think this needs more attention. The Shadow Priest you desperately need is in the same quandary you are having Warriors and Rogues in your group - you do nothing for him. The Spriest would be much better off (~3% better for him and the mana/health return to the group) if you were a BM spec. The additional raid DPS and flexibility benefits of BM cannot be understated.

In general, this was a great post, and I respect your effort to help out the MM-lovers (myself included) out there, but since you are such an icon you have to be careful to not provide a false impression of MM. Personal DPS aside, there are many negatives to bringing MM Hunters to raids. I know this is going to generate 50+ threads on the Official forums titled Howitzer says switch to MM at T6!!!1!!.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Howitzer

Yes, I realize that some might not like the 5/5 IAoTH but I've never had it decrease my DPS. I haven't modeled it as I'm not into that per se, but I will tell you that if you're fast enough with good latency it will do nothing but help you, you're just doing things at a faster pace and rotating shots less methodically and more dynamically. My belief as far as T6 MM spec vs T6 BM spec is that BM will beat out MM in the end. The reason I personally choose MM as of late is because of the type of fights in Hyjal and BT, (blizzard's overall current end-game). The other reason is I enjoy MM in PVP immensely. Nothing beats 2 shotting casters.

In regards to the group scenario. I was saying that TSA is only useful to classes we don't necessarily want to group with, meaning that the MM spec is most definitely pretty damn useless to a raid unless you're providing the buff to another BM hunter or SURV hunter in your group and we're already paired up with a shadow priest on top of it. Everyone knows the FI proc's goodness in a group/raid setting, there is no arguing that and I've made many threads supporting your own comments above.

The reason for this thread is no matter what class you are you're always going to have a few apples that fall farther from the tree. What I mean is not everyone is going to succumb to the cookie-cutter expectations of a class, follow a spreadsheet, or listen to the advice of others. They're going to play what they enjoy. Its a vent to explain my own experiences and get input from others on how the MM tree works on a functional level, nothing more. This isn't a "go MM now!" post in the least bit. On the contrary, it is here to try and help educate not only Hunters, but others who play with them to realize that it isn't worthless as long as the player is capable. We're all here to discuss and learn.

Skill > Gear > Spec, I always say. =)

 

Cheeky

I completely agree, and I hope you didn't take my comments the wrong way.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Enova

Personally, I can't tell how hard a MM hunter would have it with mana consumption, but wouldn't a Shaman + Shadowpriest be a better (and certainly more realistic) option? Even if you were stuck in a caster group and thus don't get a Grace of Air totem, Shadowpriest + Mana tide beats having lots of crit but only being able to use 1:1

Guilty as charged ^

 

WallaWalla

Howitzer,

I've been a big fan of your stuff, as well as Cheeky and have been playing MM for quite some time. One question I see is regarding your rotation.

The part regarding weapon speed and then rotation.

Now, maybe my latency is just borking everything up, or maybe I am misunderstanding something that should be apparent (which I probably am). I'm pushing Sunfury and due to the GCD, fitting all of that after Steady would be clipping my auto shot back at least .5 seconds, if not longer. So, are you suggesting not using a quiver to get the full attack speed of the bow, or am I just being a noob with bad latency?

 

Hypothraxer

I've been raiding as MM hunter ever since and I think this is a very good post - however I don't agree on all the points.

I'm running around with roughly 8900 mana unbuffed and I can tell you that potting at 3400 mana left is late. I'm using a super mana potion when I hit 7000 mana and with that I find it extremely difficult to actually run out of mana when I'm additionally using MP5 buffs (that's without a shadow priest). It goes so far actually that I'm using Fel Mana potions only on Kaz'Rogal and Mother - on anything else Super Mana potions do the trick just fine. I have to admit though that the Mark of Conquest plays a huge role in this.
In my opinion, mana is a non-issue even for MM hunters.

I strongly disagree on this. You will build aggro very fast in the beginning - but as soon as you have landed two successful feigns you won't have more aggro problems than any other hunter build. How? You're not really doing exorbital more damage than a BM hunter (though you will do a lot more damage on those rather pet-unfriendly fights like Azgalor and Archimonde (though Archimonde isn't really a fight per se for a hunter since you're usually hiking around Hyjal avoiding the doomfires)). So Salvation is not needed.



I'd add Blackened Sporefish to that list - especially when running a low mana pool like on Mother.

 

Ciani

You misunderstood what he wrote.

Thanks for the post also. I'm sick of the "Is MM dead?" discussion. I am currently the cookie-cutter 41/20/0 build for raiding purposes. I'll be respeccing to MM until after the holidays and we start raiding again. I think people put too much emphasis on what others do and "this spreadsheet says this or that". Survivabilty for example is as important as DPS IMO something that many forget, and something that a spreadsheet is usually not going to include.

 

Howitzer

You misunderstood. I meant 3400 mana down, as in, if you had 8900 mana, you'd make use of the Fel Mana right at 5500-5600, or, 3400 down. Sorry my English is retarded today. =)

As far as this goes, I'm going to have to disagree big time! I have, and I am not kidding here, generated almost 30-40,000 threat in less than 30 seconds on Kael'Thas a while ago. This was before my FD was up again. If I happen to get too many lucky crits in a row for 2700-3600 it is going to be game over for me pretty fast and I have to back off. I cannot even count how many times FD will resist as well. I suppose it depends on the player and how hard they are pushing themselves as to whether or not they could use Salvation. It also depends on the tank and how hard they are generating threat, but as you know a tank's threat has a limit, whereas the damage output of a DPS class scales differently. All in all I would say that if you have 3 paladins, not too many mana issues, get yourself some salv to go balls-out on fights.

 

Hypothraxer

Hm - Kael'Thas is a bit special though since you're sporting the bow which increases your damage to ridiculous levels. I have never encountered this Threat-Problem on Kael'Thas since I was usually on Egg / Phoenix-kite duty. But I have encountered it on RoS which pretty much equals Kael'Thas regarding damage (6000+ multi-shot crits during Deaden).
However every hunter build will have problems when they face a FD resist.

I just don't really see it necessary to have Salvation since it really only serves the hunter the first minute of the fight and from there it just isn't really helping much. Though I guess opinions can differ on this subject.

 

Gorillapaws

I'm a MM T4 raiding hunter, and I tend to stay in aspect of the viper instead of hawk. Because of this, I didn't pick up IAoTH. Am I really crippling my dps?

On raids I tend to fall behind some of the best geared BM hunters in the guild on the damage meters, but usually not by very much, and sometimes I do manage to beat them out. The other talent I was somewhat surprised to see was the 2 points into Combat Experience; it seems like a relatively steep price for a very modest gain in AP maybe at the T6 level it makes more sense, but I still think those points could be better invested elsewhere.

Personally, I think the MM spec brings a lot of utility to a raiding guild as long as the hunter can make up for his slightly diminished dps by providing utility in other ways. For example, as a MM spec my pet dps is less crucial, and so it frees me up to have a bird as my raid pet. Having screech up on the boss mob allows us to use the curse of recklessness since they more or less negate each other. The net result is being able to reduce the armor of a boss mob for the entire raid which is a nice boost to raid-wide dps.

 

Howitzer

I think you're falling into a bit of a trap. First thing is you should always use Aspect of the Hawk. You're crippling your DPS for no reason. You shouldn't use Viper unless you're seriously starting to go low on mana. You should instead be using potions to get your mana back. So in that regard, yes, you are crippling your DPS. The other common mistake people make is thinking that just because they are Marks spec, their pet doesn't matter. Your pet is going to be doing between 150-200 dps or more, (depending on your gear, if the pet is buffed, etc), on any given fight. Taking your pet out of the equation is also severely crippling your damage regardless of what spec you are. I will still always use a Ravager or a Cat for all fights because they push out the most damage.

As far as Combat Experience, everyone knows it is lack-luster. However, later on, it adds that extra bit of crit, AP, mana, that you just cannot squeeze out of gear or buffs anymore. The only alternative to CE is to choose another 2 pts into a talent that simply won't boost your DPS.

 

Kaladian

I have raided as a BM hunter since i hit 70 but the last 3 weeks i have tried MM since we have everything on farm. I generate a ton more aggro as a MM hunter compared to BM. I agree if we have 3 pallies i want Salv.

 

Aelatian

You sure that shot rotation is right? It's kinda physically impossible to squeeze in a Steady, Arcane AND Multi between Autos due to the GCD, not to mention the fact that it would be clipping autos. Also, do you really hold off using an Arcance shot solely to be used with Multi given the different cooldowns?

IMO one of the key skills to being a Marks hunter is the ability to stick to a rough idea of a rotation and be able to adjust your rotation on-the-fly to compensate.

Personally I weave in an Arcane between a Steady and an Auto whenever Arcane is off cool down as a general rule of thumb. Then whenever multi is off cooldown I tend to use it in place of a steady shot, as I've found with many fights, trying to weave a multi with any other special between auto shots is hell because of the hidden cast times for multi and auto shot not to mention latency and human error. That's just my 2 cents, any opinions welcome

 

Howitzer

Just a rough example, not exact in terms of sequence. I defined what I meant by 1:1.5 and changed it. Yes, I agree that you can explain shot rotation until you're blue in the face but you can't get it down unless you practice and try it over and over again until you are able to adjust it on-the-fly at any given time. I usually start off with either a multi or arcane, allow autoshots to fire and then rotate steadys in between using cooldowns whenever they are up.

 

Sympa

Howitzer I am fairly surprised that you didn't include the Marks BM hybrid for dps. The following is a completely raid oriented MM spec but have at it.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Its bit different than the standard cookie cutter build but 20% pet damage instead of increased range and humanoid slaying is nothing to laugh at.

My blog, about wow and the like.

 

Howitzer

Thanks, I completely forgot about that thinking only about what I was writing. Thats what this thread is for anyways! I added a build to the original post. Thanks again. =)

 

Shandara

More correct would be to say you generate more BURST aggro than BM, actual TPS over a long period (say the full 10min fight) would be roughly equal. If you can't control your burst when it's important (i.e. at pulls or early feigns), then you're doing something wrong...

 

Chulak

I'm one of the die hard MM hunters that gets scoffed at by a lot of people in the Blizz forums. We're currently farming Void Reaver and working on Al'ar and Lurker, with one of our BM hunters and one of our destro locks starting to catch up to my DPS. I've always hand woven shots, and the fact that my latency rarely climbs over 125 certainly helps me. Based on the fact that we're downing VR in less than 9 minutes and Gruul by grow 12, I believe it's safe to say that I'm not in an "everyone sucks and I suck less" situation. According to Recount I'm sustaining about 750 DPS on Void Reaver (due largely to the amount of running around, VR doesn't like me much), and about 860 on Gruul.

I'm currently raiding with the following spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, which is admittedly a bit of a hybrid Battleground/Raid spec. I keep a good number of points in survival in order to get Surefooted, which has always given me greater flexibility in gear selection regarding Hit Rating. With some recent upgrades my geared +Hit has improved significantly, but at the same time I'm reluctant to give up a spec that has been working for me. 2% crit from Killer Instinct is a great way to spend a couple points, and unbuffed I'm currently sitting at 2083 AP and 27.70% Crit.

MM is definitely very gear intensive, and unfortunately most of the T4 gear is lackluster at best. I saw a DPS decrease going from my Beast Lord Gauntlets (With good gems of course) to the T4 Gloves, so they sit in the bank. I saw a DPS decrease going from the Laughing Skull Battle Harness to the Scaled Breastplate of Carnage, so it sits in the bank. The T4 shoulders don't even look like they're worth trying. The legs and helm are great pieces and won't be upgraded unless I can get VR's Greaves or T5. Due to the randomness of the loot tables, the new badge rewards were a boon to many classes including MM hunters, as the Gauntlets of Sniping were the first clear upgrade from the BL Gauntlets, absent the Gauntlets of the Dragonkiller.

MM is definitely a mana hog, and with my rotation it's especially draining. I've found that raiding with Viper up all the time is the best way for me to maintain a full rotation through 8-9 minute boss fights, chugging Fel Mana pots every time the CD is up. Starting with Hawk and switching to Viper at 50% still runs me out of mana by 6 minutes or so into an encounter. Our guild is also short on shadow priests and we rarely have more than one in the raid, so as Raid Leader I'd be neglecting the good of the raid if we only had one and he was in my group.

I keep 3 points in Imp Arcane, as I've found that with a 2.9 speed bow 3 points brings arcane up precisely when I want it for every odd cycle.

This is my current "perfect world" shot rotation, assuming someone else is keeping Scorpid up (as applicable):


Arcane > Auto > Steady > Multi > Auto > Steady > Arcane > Auto > Steady > Auto > Steady > REPEAT.

Note that for 2 out of 3 cycles I'm getting two specials between each auto shot. Occasionally I may clip an auto for less than .5 seconds or so, but my personal experience has shown that clipping an auto for a fraction of a second in order to weave in a special that can crit for over 2k is well worth it. I've tried the Multi > Arcane > Auto cycle, and due to the GCD it always feels like I'm clipping more than I do with my standard rotation. In my opinion it's also absolutely critical to macro Kill Command into all of your specials. While it's true that MM pets don't do nearly the damage of BM pets, maximizing pet damage is often and unfortunately overlooked by MM hunters.

The above is posted in the spirit of the original post, to gather ideas and methods for maximizing the MM spec.

While I understand and agree that Ferocious Inspiration does more to buff the raid than TSA possibly can, I run a casual guild. We don't require full PVE specs of our raiders, and we find ways to optimize typically shunned specs such as Enhancement Shamans. We progress a bit more slowly, but we're still making our way pretty quickly to 3rd place horde side on our server. I say that so that I can say this: As Howitzer said, not every hunter is going to gear and spec into a spreadsheet perfect model of perfect world DPS. I believe it should be a part of our mission to help every hunter maximize the output of their chosen play style, and it's nice to see a thread like this pop up once in a while.

I've been primarily MM for most of the life of this toon, and as a result I've got a profound familiarity with the coordination it takes to put out maximum DPS with the spec. I won't rule out ever trying a raiding BM spec, but I'm not likely to do it while we're still progressing comfortably and I'm still top damage as MM.

 

Irimli

Howitzer great post!

Chulak, just read over yours and saw that you were having mana issues, but that you always have KC tied to one of your specials, isnt that really contributing to your mana issue? I am not an expert at all, but I almost never use KC as it seems a waste for MM, when I was BM I spammed the KC/SS macro all the time, but I wasnt using arcane and multi at all.

I guess my question is should MM hunters be using KC as much as that? Or only sparingly?