PSGarak

How does judgement of wisdom rank in the overall hierarchy of MM hunter regen mechanics? Without having done math or played a hunter beyond level 13, I would assume that a hunter is probably one of the classes that benefits the most from it, along with enh shamans, and that it might make or break your ability to last on some fights.
Also, KC doesn't proc judgement of wisdom on the hunter, right?

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Iod

Correct.

As I understand it, the Hierarchy of Paladin Blessings is as (usually) follows:
Might
Kings
Wisdom
Salvation

Certain circumstances may cause a shift in this due to either specific fight conditions, or raid composition. A survival hunter may want to prioritize Kings over Might if only one blessing is available.

(a MM hunter would get more out of taking BoMight and running with aspect of the viper than BoW and AotH... provided they're not relying on the haste procs of IAotH)


Though it has been my experience that regardless of spec, Judgement of Wisdom is a hunter's best friend. In one Magtheridon kill I netted over 12.5K mana from JoW (though at this time I'm BM spec )

I think our Ret Pally was there that time and maintained 100% uptime. Though perusing my WWS's on average it'll get me between 4-6K mana for the longer fights.

 

Trohck

In my experience JoW with 100% uptime on a single target will return about 1x [Decent Shadow Priest]'s worth of mana to a hunter on a boss fight.

Here is a WWS confirming that: Wow Web Stats

 

Slaughtt

Mana Spring Totem is 25 Mana per 2 seconds.
Mana Oil is 14 Mana per 5 seconds.
Fel Mana is 3200 Mana per 2 minutes.
Black Bow of the Betrayer is 8 Mana per shot.

In 10 seconds of a shot rotation assuming 1:1.5 you'd expect at least:
247 for Multishot (x1)
414 for Arcane (x2)
495 for Steady Shot (x5)
Totaling to 1156 Mana per 10 seconds.

Mana Spring cuts off 100 Mana per 10 seconds.
Mana Oil takes 28 Mana per 10 seconds.
Black Bow of the Betrayer takes off 128 Mana per 10 seconds.

1156 - 256 = 900.

So you're effectively losing 900 mana per 10 seconds. A Fel Mana pot will restore 3200 mana and it will take 3.55555 rotations to use up that fel mana pot. That's 35 seconds of extra DPS time assuming no haste procs or Blust/Heroism switching to a 1:1 rotation.

Keep in mind this does not factor in any haste procs such as IAotH, Bloodlust/Heroism, Drums of Battle where you would switch to a 1:1 rotation normally. If my calculations are right, it would show that I would most likely go oom.

If it was me... I'd want a shadow priest :P Or at least JoW which is almost 74 mana back per shot.

 

Kehoe

As far as paladin buffs go, I have found myself juggling them quite a bit recently. I tend to always want Kings, because it is increasing agility, mana pool, and health pool (which with the recent respect trying 5 in iAotH, I will definately need). Salvation has been increasingly useful with the more T6 I receive, so it has become my third favorite buff behind might / wisdom, which I choose based on the length of the fight. This is just personal preference, and I haven't spent nearly as much time in BT / MH as some of these guys, my guild just recently downed Illidan.

 

Mearis

What is the benefit for the raid of a hunter going MM versus BM? It seems like MM has inferior DPS to BM on any fight that isn't exceedingly pet unfriendly, lacks any group support buffs, and requires more support from the raid in order to perform well.

I understand wanting to carve your own path, and I fully believe in skill > spec and gear, but can someone tell me why as a raid leader you would want one of your hunters to spec MM over BM, assuming you already have a survival hunter?

 

whitemanfromtown

I can see the logic behind this, but one thing I'm wondering is this. If you're solely running giving up hawk to run viper so you can use KC, what is the math behind the two abilities? There's no way KC is a % dps increase, since its static damage. KC seems to run around ~30dps for most non-BM hunters. What contribution of dps is given up by not using hawk? I feel its more than 30, probably closer to 60 or 70.

 

Howitzer

This is a very valid and common question in regards to accepting MM hunters into a raid. Last night was a good example. We had a BM hunter and a Survival Hunter in our raid through Hyjal / BT and then myself as MM. We were all equally geared, all in the same group, along with 1 resto shaman and 1 shadow priest. Needless to say, the performance level was like this: me 1st, then the BM hunter 2nd, then the survival hunter 3rd, with the survival hunter surpassing the BM hunter on several occassions. Now I am "NOT" saying that MM is going to beat BM, I know BM is better. All I'm saying is that there was still not 1 boss fight where I was not top 5, and the addition of the EW proc + FI proc made my shots scale to ridiculous levels, (it was pretty damn fun).

Having said that, I'll stress again that you're not going to show competitive numbers with MM until you're at least full T5 or equivalent or greater in terms of gear. BM is still going to win in a straight | stand still | pew pew | scenario. However, most of you know that the fights in this game require a lot of movement, fast shots, range, some kiting, etc. I think my pet died 3 times on fucking Archimonde and the bosses prior from Rain of Fire. I don't know about you but that seriously pisses me off, (and I was 41/20/0 for a portion of Hyjal last night before respec back to 7/48/6).

 

Chulak

Last night for Gruul I gave up KC entirely to try going back to Hawk with a switch to Viper at about 40% mana. Overall I did 856 DPS for the fight, which is about what I expect on Gruul. I certainly felt somewhat better mana efficiency overall, especially when I switched to Viper (though it wasn't a massive change). That said, my DPS was within a few points of where it was last week using Viper 100% of the time with KC macroed into arcane and multi. My overall DPS wasn't really effected by the change, at least for this first evaluation. Like many hunters, I still need to switch to Viper when mana starts to get low...so Hawk is not up 100% of the time anyway. In any case, I'm going to continue doing a few comparisons. Since my gear should remain static through the process I should be able to see an objective comparison between both methods overall. I don't want to make a value judgement based on one or two encounters.

 

Kaladian

Howitzer do you mind posting the WWS from that raid last night. I love sending time looking over other players WWS and you guys running 3 different specced hunters in one raid would be great information to look at. I have spent hours on the PTR working on Mr boom trying different specs but you never get the true feel until you raid with that different specs. Looking at WWS from guilds at the same level as us help me determine where i need to do better. Also i have thought the same thing as Mearis if your say top 5 DPS as MM odds are you would be top 5 as BM and bring another roughly 3% damage to your group , what benefit does MM bring to the table. We usaully only raid with 1 hunter in the raid which isnt me most of the time =(.

 

Howitzer

Me as Marksman, (yes, I know its not breaking 1600-1800 dps).

Here is the Najentus fight from last night with all 3 hunters all different specs:
Wow Web Stats

Same deal, on Supremus:
Wow Web Stats

 

Kehoe

He basically answered this already, but I will answer it from my own experience. Most hunters are horrible at their class, so when you find one who knows what they are doing, they can basically spec how they choose as long as they continue to do this right. I consistantly post in the top 5 for most fights with a MM spec, and enjoy the playstyle more than that of beast mastery. I feel lost without the increased range from survival, and scatter shot from marksman if I am doing the kite duties in MH, and the 1:1 shot rotation is not as dynamic as the cooldown watching involved in MM.

 

Kaladian

I agree that it is how you want to play the game but at that end of the day you could be easy top 5 as a BM hunter and give your group a 3% increase in damage. He question is valid What does a MM hunter bring to the raid as a whole that vs what a BM or SV bring. 3% more damage scales where TSA does not. Blizzard has messed up the hunter trees to the point that they are all messed up with pvp/pve skills together. In the old days MM was the raid spec and SV was the pvp spec but now MM has PVP skills like scattershot/silent shot but SV has all the other PVP skills.

The problem is this what does each spec do for the raid and MM brings the least to the table. If there is 1 spot for a hunter to me SV or BM would bring more to the raid then a MM. AT T6 level the gain between BM and MM dps is very close but BM brings 3% increase damage to who ever he is grouped with. MM needs a better group buff.

 

Kehoe

You are assuming that all 3 hunters offer the same level of skill, which is rarely the case. Until my guild recruited a new BM from another server, I had not had a hunter be competitive with me in TBC. And in all honesty, my guild doesn't care about hunter's spec, it is more about if they are skilled enough to do their job on the boss at hand. I am competitive with the other DPS classes, I take the job of being the main puller and usually main target marker for the raids. Skilled hunters are a commodity on many servers

And like I said above, I prefer the playstyle of marksman more than that of beast mastery. It is easier for me to do my job with scatter shot and silencing shot than intimidation.

 

bznotins

Howitzer, thanks for starting a thread on theorycrafting MM Huntards. I'm MM because I simply enjoy the playstyle. I like the "glass cannon" approach and micro-managing my pet is something I just don't enjoy. Thankfully I still compete in my guild's raids as MM (I rarely beat the BM Huntard though) so I'm allowed to stay that spec.

A few things I would like to debate with you. Most of this is what I have gleaned from Cheeky's spreadsheet.

Haste rating. A big mistake to ignore it. For a MM Hunter using a 2.9 or 3.0 it is the single most important stat IMHO.

Just to give you an idea of my current progression, we're farming ZA with everything down in SSC and TK except Vashj and Kael. My spec is 12/43/6. The 3 points in Humanoid Killing are proving to be more valuable than the last 3 points in Unleashed Fury just based on the number of Humanoid bosses we face as a percentage.

My Armory Profile to give you an idea of my gear. I bought the BT Shoulders and Bracers -- we're not in those instances yet.

Here is a WWS Parse of a recent Nalorakk kill. Nalorakk is a good barometer for me because it is the closest "Patchwerk" type fight in ZA where there are no adds (inflating DPS with MS) and very little running around. I pulled over 1100 DPS on this fight because I had a feral druid, enh Shammy, and SV hunter in my group, but 1000+ isn't uncommon even without those buffs.

Anyways, with all that out of the way, here are my thoughts.

Haste. Using Cheeky's spreadsheet and a 1:1 rotation, the incremental value of each attribute is as follows:

Agility + 1 0.531
AP + 1 0.226
Crit + 1 0.464
Hit + 1 0.472
Int + 1 0.112
Haste + 1 0.603
Armor Pen + 1 0.049

In the 1:1 scenario, Haste is clearly the most valuable stat. Even considering diminishing returns and that I already have a ton of it.

Granted, in a 1:1.5 rotation the value of Haste diminishes greatly. The problem is that most 1.1.5 rotations require both a SP and reliable JoW to be viable. Without those two, even chain-chugging mana pots won't allow you to sustain enough mana to stay in the rotation without resorting to changing to AotV or swapping DPS buffs for mana buffs. And by dropping those buffs you defeat the purpose of being in the 1:1.5 rotation anyway. In a 1:1 scenario it is also realistic to have KC in the rotation while you can't afford the mana loss of KC in a 1:1.5 scenario.

Also, you said that the Flask of Relentless Assault is better than the Major Agility + Dreanic Wisdom combo. I would have to respectfully disagree. The Flask is 120AP. The latter combo is 35 AGI, 20 Crit, and 20 INT. Using the above DPS values, we have 27 DPS for the Flask and 30 for the combo plus the (minor) benefit of a larger mana pool.

Great thread and it's a real treat to be chatting MM theorycrafting while the rest of the Hunter world chats BM.

 

whitemanfromtown

I disagree with this. If your weapon speed becomes faster than 2.5, it will botch your rotation because of cooldowns. Lets say its 2.4, after 4 shots you're at 9.6 seconds and will have to wait .4 seconds in order to cast multi-shot or a 2nd fully talented arcane shot. The spreadsheet assumes that you're able to cast steady shot at "Time 0" after every other auto shot and that your latency never changes (which it most definitely does if you're using cable). Its nearly impossible for a human to match that kind of accuracy, despite what they may think of themselves. In my opinion, haste is benificial at times, but other times its detrimental. I wouldn't want to play with a stat that's completely dependant on your latency at the time you're casting your shots.

 

Howitzer

I think the value of a flask vs double elixir depends on what your current crit rating is at. If you're below say 30% unbuffed crit as MM then I'd agree a double elixir is going to benefit you more increasing the frequency of your critical shots. There are different ways of looking at it, really. Your AP flask is benefiting every shot and scaling higher than the agility boost. Your elixir is giving you AP as well, and also increasing damage only on those extra crits you'll get over the course of a fight. Modeling this? I haven't done it. I don't believe in spreadsheets, I've never bothered using them, (nothing against Cheeky or anyone else), but you need to get a feel for your character's potential through your own play ability and no modeling is going to do that for you. I often switch between AP flasks and double elixirs depending on what I'm fighting. I like using both, as you said, due to the mana pool diff / crit / etc.

As far as using a 1:1 rotation hasted as MM, exclusively, I think that just defeats the purpose of Marksmanship. I'd just go BM if that were the case.

 

Ishmaael

As BM i use an elixir combo any time im going to need the mana (ie. any time i dont get a spriest/shaman and our ret paladin isn't raiding). If you need the mana theirs really no comparison imo.

 

MikeMo

I am not trying to knock you but I just don't know what you mean by the word "competitive". How do YOU define competitive? The BM hunter, assuming he is in your gear, is 500-600+ DPS lower than he should be. Comparing your DPS to that of the BM hunter in your raid is going to make you feel a lot more competitive than you are assuming those are typical numbers (your 1481 output in that link may have just been a bad night).

Also, how did your pet die to Azgalor rain of fire? Your pet should be on the demons during that fight no matter what spec you are unless you guys do something weird like tank them 3 miles away or kite for some reason

Also, could you link phase 1 RoS WWS's for me. I like to use that phase to compare hunters as it's agro free and a nice DPS test for those who do not have to tank it.

 

Howitzer

Phase 1 ROS last night. Wow Web Stats One marks hunter and one survival hunter. The BM hunter wasn't in the raid. Don't get me wrong here, we're talking WWS farm-content, people half-asleep, and just plowing through normal week after week BT bosses. This isn't like balls-out trying your best from everyone in the raid, I'm pretty sure. hehe =)

 

Slaughtt

I've found myself on a similar standpoint.

But switching to a 1:1 rotation does appear to work when Quick Shots is active, a Rapid Fire or even a lucky Bloodlust (melee scream for it). Which we already know this, but you find that whilst your DPS is increased because of the haste bonus, and casting at a 1:1 rotation, you will usually notice yourself having more mana compared to if you received no haste bonus.

Just wondering if you find that switching to a 1:1 rotation because of a haste effect would also consider as defeating the purpose of Marksmanship.

Oh and considering your raids DPS is performing exceptionally well, the duration of the boss fight will decrease, your DPS should increase and say you go OOM after 5 minutes, yet the boss dies in 4 minutes, you would not run out of steam before the end and your effective DPS on WWS would increase and thus have a larger E-peen effect imo!

 

Howitzer

No, I definitely switch to 1:1 many times in the course of a fight when RF/Quick shots is up, etc. as I said in the original post. I just don't think that doing that rotation exclusively is a good thing to do as marks as it negates several talent points spent into multi shot.

 

bznotins

OK I did a bit of modeling in Cheeky's spreadsheet. I realize OP isn't a fan of spreadsheets but it is the only good testbed we have. Even WWS has uncontrollable variability.

Again, keep in mind I'm not in T6.

0.3s lag:

Specced MM with Haste gear, 1:1 rotation: 1220 DPS (mitigated, raid buffed)
Specced MM with non-Haste (but equivalent iLvl gear), 1:1 rotation: 1173 DPS
Specced MM with non-Haste (but equivalent iLvl gear), 1:1.5 rotation: 1221 DPS

0.1s lag:

Specced MM with Haste gear, 1:1 rotation: 1220 DPS (mitigated, raid buffed)
Specced MM with non-Haste (but equivalent iLvl gear), 1:1 rotation: 1186 DPS
Specced MM with non-Haste (but equivalent iLvl gear), 1:1.5 rotation: 1267 DPS

Clearly lag plays a quite important role here. Unfortunately I'm cursed with bad lag but I can see how OP's point bears-out in the model.

 

Acauna

I am wondering how you make sure you don't clip your autoshot after a Steady Shot? I use the macro "/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot" to make sure that I get an autoshot to fire before I cast my next Steady Shot.

 

Lidocaine

A few of us have tried out 0/43/18 or something very similar with some success.

This spec can be useful for someone struggling to get enough into the hit cap, while waiting for a Halbred to drop, or someone who wants to use a Twinblade or other non-hit weapon. It also allows for little to no +Hit gemming, and you can focus more on other desirable stats.

While you do lose out on the 2% bonus damage while pet is active, as well as no imp. Aspect of the Hawk, most of the modeling I've done using Cheeky's spreadsheet shows similar DPS output between the earlier specs posted and this spec. Any thoughts?