galzohar

When you're trying to "not click too late" what matters is your ping's variance and not your actual ping. Since if you know you, say, want to steady right after an auto hits, and you have 300ms constant ping, you just hit the stead 0.3s early. However if you have 200-300ms ping, you still have to hit it 0.2s early in case you get 200ms ping, but you might sitll get 300ms ping losing 0.1s. So what matters is your ping "varying range" and not your actual ping.

 

Howitzer

I'm usually runnin at 80ms-120ms ping and I'm sure my successes with the MM spec have something to do with that. I believe we're the only class that truly gets screwed due to lag. I suppose a lock could get messed up also with DOT applications.

 

Chulak

I ran with a spec very similar to that all the way through learning Kara and into Gruul's a bit, and it worked out very well. Recently I've been using http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cZVVfoVzhekbIhzMpcMb (Clever traps because I do BGs in my raid build as well). My AP is high enough to support dropping one point from Master Marksman, and I'm sitting at 2700 AP/35% crit raid buffed (With LotP)

 

XG08Zero

Just did a Gruul as MM to try out the abandoned raiding spec. I feel I did ok, though not sure what to analyze in dps charts for MM spec.

7/45/9 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Nataku - 1005 dps which is higher than I thought it would be as MM. I didn't have a shadow priest, but did have mana spring totem and to my surprise mana efficiency was manageable (and i was using super mana pots).
Wow Web Stats

and also, what are your thoughts on wind-serpents? It just seems using a pet with a low-focus ability (claw/gore) is a waste with all the crits from GftT, especially with a windserpent, you could say you're adding an instant 160ish damage to every crit. I haven't been analyzing wind serpents exactly about all the AI flaws that people complain about, but a good 160ish damage to every crit sounds helpful when you go over a certain %crit.

 

Demarion

Nicely done Howitzer.

What UI are you using in that video?

 

alienangel

Good to know there's some hope of going back to MM. Coming back to raiding and being 3 months behind in gear, it didn't seem worthwhile taking up a raid spot to do "MM hunter without shadowpriest/shaman" DPS so I finally switched to BM, and can't say I'm enjoying it much. The DPS is definitely nice on some fights (hyjal bosses, some BT bosses), but I'm terrible at keeping pet alive on stuff like Archimonde/IC (and I'd guess illidan), and the DPS lost on those from pet care seems to negate the DPS gained on easier bosses (not to mention the massive boredom of doing near optimal dps from just spamming my scroll-wheel).

Question about MM without an spriest or fel-mana pots, since I think it's worth addressing that horrible situation since I expect many encounter it now and then: with the un-nerfing of low-rank arcane shots does anyone find it worth putting down some r1 arcanes when in conservation mode? R1 multi is definitely worth it, and R1 arcane seems to be at about the same DPM as steadyshot (without 4/5 T6).

 

Azcards

Howitzer thanks for the post and information, I was directed to this by a fellow guildy and it is quite the interesting read.

My first post so some background information may be in order. I am the hunter officer for Killer Instinct and to date we have progressed through Kara and Gruul's. We have downed Void Reaver and are working on SSC so our gear is pretty good for now. The situation I have is boosting the hunter's dps output as a group and am looking at way's to accomplish this. Now for the noob questions.

When talking about shot rotations I see the 1:1 and 1:1.5 ratio being used, what is that in relation to? Auto?

I would also like to know what UI you are using in the video as I'm looking for something other than the standard.

That's enough for now, I'll wade in slowly.

 

Blargenheim

Recently leveling my hunter after quite the long break (Pre-Bc raid exp, also switching over from my Lock with limited SSC/TK exp.), I played as BM for quite a while, and was less than satisfied with the results to be honest. I respecced back to a cookie cutter MM spec that Howitzer recommended. I've yet to test the spec in PvE, but I feel that I will like it much like pre-bc when I respecced from 0/21/30 to an MM spec (Not sure of exact numbers) post 2.0. My question, however, is more directed towards trinkets. I've been looking for math for this for a little bit for effective ratings for all the trinkets. Right now, I am using the Bladefist's Breadth and Abacus and will be upgrading soon (Darkmoon Crusade and Bloodlust Brooch?). Values for all the trinkets would be rather helpful, and if there is already math on this if someone could direct me that way would be nice. Thanks in advance

 

Lumphoof

I'd like to better understand a full MM build, in the context of 25-man raids. My opinion, which could be wrong, is that the benefits of mid to deep Survival talents, for buffing personal DPS, outweigh deep MM talents.

It would seem that Lightning Reflexes (+15% AGI), Killer Instinct (+3% Crit) and Survival Instincts (+4% AP) have better synergy than than Master Marksman (+10% AP).

This hybrid build, 0/31/30, may be a better DPS option than a 0/43/18.

If we assume some very modest baseline numbers, not factoring in talents, of 600 AGI, 1800 AP, I think the 0/31/30 would clearly out damage the 0/43/18. In this example, 0/31/30 gives you an additional 90 AGI (and +90 AP, 2.7% Crit), 72 AP, 3% Crit, for a total of 162 AP, 5.7% Crit. Total AP is 1962 AP. 0/43/18 gives you an additional 10% AP, for a total of 1980 AP. No +crit bonus.

I am assuming a 1:1.5 shot rotation, Auto/Steady/Arcane/Auto/Steady, with Multi added as cooldown permits.

You could pull points away from Surefooted and put them into Careful Aim, but I think that Surefooted gives you much more flexibility with your gear choices.

If I'm missing something important, please let me know. I don't mean to flame anyone, but I'd like to understand why my assumptions are wrong, if they are.

 

alienangel

Lump, you can plug the proposed build into Cheeky's spreadsheet to see if it comes out better or not. It didn't a year back, maybe it does now. I'd guess the lack of Imp Barrage and the fairly large scaling off the higher AP from CA and Master Marks have a lot to do with it.

 

titortian

With the introduction of patch 2.3.2 we all found a few things very interesting... they do not need to be named but it has now been a week. i am no longer getting 2 aimed shots but i still am getting the 2 autoshots in a row seeing that we have already gone through a tuesday and i am still getting the double autoshots i do not think that it is a fluke while i am fighting i am still finding that if i spam steady shot i am getting more dps than i was using the 1:1.5 rotation and doing alot more if i stack speed enhancments like "rapid fire, imp hawk, and the abbacus of vial odds" seeing that stacking speed enhancments has become a god send recently should we change to a bm spec for raiding for even more speed enhancment of stay our MM specs and use what we have...

 

Female Tauren

Great post Howitzer.

I was wondering what's a good macro for the 1:1.5 rotation, or does anyone actually do it manually? I'm a big fan of manual weaving as BM, but when I try to do it as MM during a non tank n spank fight I mess up a lot.

Also, how does latency affect MM, would you advise someone to never go MM if their ping is above a certain amount?

 

Sympa

After being BM for nearly 6 months and a lazy one (using the steady auto cast sequence) I figured I would attempt to return to marksman spec. First attempts returning to marks left me feeling frustrated and like I had lost some labido. Considering myself a skilled player I was pretty troubled. Since then I've picked marks back up and would like to share some thoughts.

SPEC

Of the specs Howitzer has provided (one of them being a suggestion I made) I would have to recommend a marks BM build over the old-fashioned cookie cutter marks. I will review the three specs listed as follows:

1) 7/48/6 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
---< or >---
19/42/0 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
---< or >---
15/43/3 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

1) Cookie Cutter Marks
Using the first spec 7/48/6, a pretty cookie cutter marks spec you'll run into a few problems with shot rotations especially with the occasional gap in your 1:1.5 rotations. Using silencing shot to fill this gap as howitzer mentioned is a good remedy however It costs 6% of your base mana pool, however putting points into imp arcane shot will reduce dead time. As a hunter in t6 equivalent gear that seems hefty even to me mana wise, which leads me into specs 2 and 3.

2&3) Marks BM Hybrid
Using either of these specs will give you a few advantages over a cookie cutter marks build. Your pet becomes a more viable source of damage and you can begin using kill command to supplement dead time in your shot rotation. This is especially important in terms of longevity. Kill command only costs 75 mana with a 5 second cooldown. Silencing shot costs 6% of your base mana and has a 20 second cooldown. Even if you had specced into improved arcane shot to reduce dead time, arcane shot costs 273 with a full rank. Reiterating my point, kill command is a real asset to a Marks BM hybrid hunter. Your pet gains 20% damage still with either spec it just does not gain the benefit of frenzy effects or ferocious inspiration on crits.

SHOT ROT

As far as shot rotations go I have to completely agree with howitzer in every way. There is no macro you can write to give you a rotation to spam. You need to be fairly fluid and able to adapt to whatever situation occurs. This is actually one of the reasons I enjoy marks, its not mindless. (As an aside stop asking for a cast sequence rotation for marksman and adapt). Just keep in mind your goal is to not have dead time. I will usually begin with a multi, auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady, auto and adapt as necessary. Anytime I am using a multi shot between autos (with-ought a steady) I will try to hit kill command.

More to come later maybe.

My blog, about wow and the like.

 

thrawn8586

Hey, my first post here so sorry if I'm going about this in the wrong way but...I was curious as to how much armor pen. was valued to a hunter, marks in particular. I realize that my gear is probably not good enough to worry about things right now, but I was taking a look at the badge gear (just started running heroics) and noticed that most of the mail gear had armor pen., but I'm not quite sure how this pans out to a marks hunter. Thanks in advance for the replies.

 

Saryanne

Good post Howie.

I am a MM Hunter at heart, it was and is my favorite tree, currently I am BM though to help my guild progression. I look forward to a day when I can go back to MM and do well. Cheeky does slightly crush my hopes though ):

That being said I have raided a decent amount of 25 man content as a MM and one thing this post overlooked was LWing and Drums of Resto. 650 Mana every 2 minutes is great. Your group loves it as well.

I prioritize my Pally buffs in this order. Wisdom > Kings > Might > Salv. With Wisdom, Mana Oil, Draienic Wisdom pots, Fel Mana Pots and Drums of resto, you never need switch to Viper. Staying in Hawk counteracts Kings and Might somewhat. I like Kings better then Might because it not only affects AP, but crit and Mana as well. Might is better then Salv because with MD's and FD, I never really have mana issues. I'm only using t4/pvp/t5 gear now though. I am pretty anal about hitting my FD every 30 seconds, so I don't know if that will change when I get t6.

I spam KC constantly. I strongly reccomend LWing for MM hunters, because I strongly feel that extra 650 mana every 2 minutes is what fills the gaps until a mana pot comes up again. Figure that is an extra 3250 mana every boss fight total.

I can't wait to be able to go back to MM for good, with the DST, I sometimes wonder if I could do it now. Cheekys spreadsheet says no though ): and so does testing, but I miss it. The bad thing is no matter what I would be respeccing twice a week for PVP and PVE lol.

 

Killua

While I agree with you for the most part, I had to note that (with efficiency) arcane shot highest rank costs 207 mana, while silencing costs 181.
When I have the mana available I also tend to use kill command often, the +20% crit from focused fire are helping it's efficiency a fair bit. (even without unleashed fury skilled)

 

mickeyknox

How high should one value armor ignore? Spreadsheets show that if you can get hit rating elsewhere, dual Dagger of Bad Mojo is better than a Halberd of Desolation. I have both, but I was wondering at what point does stacking armor ignore pay off?

 

Hypothraxer

One thing that might be useful for non-macro users (like me):

With the new patch your specials will wait until the auto shot fires if you activate it ~0.5 seconds before the auto shot fires. The awesome thing about this is that you're basically shaving off up to 0.5 seconds of the GCD (since that one is starting even though the shot hasn't fired yet). This means that a multi+arcane combo between two auto shots is very easy to pull off. The same goes for Steady+Arcane+Kill Command or even Steady+Multi.

The results are funny to watch:

Wow Web Stats

(Full log: Wow Web Stats - contains Illidari Council, Illidan and a full MH run).

 

Ailuridae

I noticed that noone ever cared to put any talentpoints into Improve Hunter's Mark. I am MM and we are raiding TK and SSC. We normaly have 2 or 3 rogues and 2 ferals plus 4 hunterpets with us. At the moment I 've got 5 points in it, so every melee gets that 110 AP bonus. Is it in that case worth the cost or should I try one of Howitzer's builds which I really would like to do?

 

Shandara

For us, it's the SV hunter in the raid who has imp. HM, so the rest of us (BM and MM) don't have to spec it. It _is_ a good bonus if at least 1 hunter in the raid has it, so if noone else has it you should pick it up!

 

Sympa

First off your raid has WAY too much physical dps -just throwing that out there. but along with that you guys should use a survival hunter. Make sure they are aware they agility is their best stat, it doesn't matter how much dps they loose on an item if it gains them agility for the most art because you have SO MANY melee classes that they will more than make up the difference by their gain in dps from the increased EW. Also if they make a hunter spec survival make him the imp mark bitch. <3

My blog, about wow and the like.

 

alienangel

I did it manually all year. With Imp AotH proccing randomly I'm not convinced you can come up with a macro that will work well.

And if you just want to spam a macro, you might as well be BM anyway, the timing is half the fun of MM.

 

Exbox

Hello, I usually don't post but I see the discussion about rotation and would like to put my two cents in.

As of now, as a surv or MM spec I find myself Using the rotation straight out of the Illustration thread [Excuse me for not linking it]

That promotes a rotation around white dps, and 100% not clipping autoshots. I find it hard to believe that one can bypass clipping while stuffing in a special EVERY single steady shot.

Steady, [Special], Auto (Repeat) seems hard to sustain with autoshots always riding on the back of the second steady, unless one has an extremely slow speed (3.2+)

I use when surv or MM the
Steady, Special, Auto, Steady, Auto
rotation, which works fine. I'm more of MM/SV supporter but realize BM does maximize personal DPS.

My only concern. With the developement of the "new" BM macro, isn't it possible that this "new" !autoshot blah blah /cast Steady shot macro could be used for MM?

I apologize if any of my issues are addressed in posts previous: I read most of the earlier posts but in retrospect realize my eyes definitely glazed over some parts.


Thanks!

 

Regdar

Hey Howtizer,

Sorry if I skip the part about having been your fan for a long time and having loved every single one of your movies

I saw the Illidan clip shortly after you released it on stage6 and even then I wanted to point out a fact that during phase 1, you constantly delay auto shots, even without Quick Shots procs, either by pressing steady shot too late, or inserting a multi shot just before auto was about to cast. The reason I found for it then was that maybe since special shots do more damage than autos then if you don't use them per cooldown they yield a bigger DPS loss than a delayed auto shot does. That or I'm greatly confused due to your skill buttons not showing GCD...

Apart from that, I agree with Cheeky's doubts on the usefulness of Improved AotH. When Quick Shots procs, there is NO WAY that you won't be delaying autos with a 1.5:1 rotation. It goes like: steady-arcane-auto-steady-delayed auto, no matter what you do, and that really ticks me off... I tried using PowerBuffs and switching to 1:1 every time Quick Shots procced, but always had the feeling I was losing DPS by doing so.

I tried one the hybrid specs you said were only for fixing insufficient stats, but having recieved a 6% crit chance buff (even more with BoK) at the cost of 200 RAP and 2% damage, especially without having to deal with those annoying Quick Shots, I noticed that my rotations were more accurate and comfortable, and I still made 1st place on the usual bosses (even Teron Gorefiend with 1600 DPS and no group buffs aside from a single BL).

Ok, sorry for the wall of text, Howitzer. Though I'd still be very grateful for your comments on the above paragraphs but the main question is : How do you deal with attack speed increasing buffs? More precisely: how do you alter your rotation when you suddenly find yourself getting Quick Shots or Bloodlust?

How do you extract the most DPS from blood fury, rapid fire and trinkets- using them all at once? I imagine that if you get 702 AP from using blood fury and Berserker's Call and restrain from pressing rapid fire, your arcane and multi shots would also benefit from the AP increase and you would extract more DPS from those 15-20 seconds, while using rapid fire thereafter or waiting for a Tsunami Talisman proc or something. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

(Wow Web Stats WWS for one evening of BT when I was 0/31/30. Check my buffs throughout the evening - always a shadow priest, but never a feral druid or shaman, albeit an occasional bloodlust)

 

partime

I have a couple of questions i am wondering if u guys would be able to answer.
Well first off as MM when under any form of haste (quick shot, DST, heroism) do switch to a 1:1 rotation or do u switch to a 1:1 rotaion when your attack speed is say under 2 sec for example?
My second question is this if u have improved arcane shot would a shot rotation like this (AS-SS-MS AS-SS-ARC AS-AS AS-SS-ARC AS-SS-MS) would that work to increase your dps of you can handle the increase mana cost, or would it just lead to clipping of your auto shot?