Stats
COMPLETELY unbuffed, a 41\20\0 BM spec.
HP: 8553
MP: 6808
Hit Rating: 145
AP: 1720 (no AotH)
Crit: 24.96%
Agi: 566
My guilds progression (in 3 weeks of raiding [beginning at guild formation\No kara])
Up to Vashj in SSC
2\4 TK (2 1% wipes on Al'ar)
All lower content cleared.
I'm wondering when do I consider respeccing to Marksman? Not only to see a personal DPS benefit but also to help the rogue \ warriors in my group (as im usually in a group made up of these classes).
What stats should I be aiming for before I consider it?
What progression before I consider it?
Should I be considering it now?
Well, you wont be seeing much of a personal dps increase, perhaps a slight decrease rolling from BM to MM. As for helping the rogue/warriors in your group, the 3% dmg increase from FI actually outweighs the rather small amt of AP gained by TSA. However, having said that based on what I can assess from your gear your in a decent position to consider switching to MM from BM. I've spent my whole career as MM and part of BC progression as a Pally. MM takes a lot to consider when itemizing your stats. Be mindful of items with Int as its an intricate part of a MM build, keep using agi gems to scale with, try to use very few if any pure gems (single stat ex 8 crit or 8 ap, 8 agi is completely acceptable). I recommend a 7/48/6 build.
*kettric
Sorry mate, havent been able to locate another hosting of that vid for you. Wanted to find it for myself due to using it as a sort of benchmarking for my own dmg output.
I'm wondering when do I consider respeccing to Marksman? Not only to see a personal DPS benefit but also to help the rogue \ warriors in my group (as im usually in a group made up of these classes).
What stats should I be aiming for before I consider it?
What progression before I consider it?
Should I be considering it now?
Etc, and any other helpful info.
Thanks!
There are a few threads about the subject already, but in short i can tell you that
If your raid doesn't have a survival hunter yet, i recommend speccing to survival, this depends on how much physical classes your raids have though.
If you already got a good one in the raid, then you should probably spec BM instead. Your personal as well as your raid DPS will be a lot higher than a Marksman would be.
-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.
I'm one of our guilds better geared hunters, we had another spec Survival without consulting our raid leader, and he was recently given the Boots off... Solarian or VR and has yet to enchant or gem them, along with a number of other pieces that remain unenchanted. He also has mixed gems (ie.. ap as surv), anywho, his position in the guild is being considered.
I'm not comfortable speccing survival until I get 700 agi unbuffed, and considering my relatively low agility at the moment, I think it will take me quite some time to get up to standard.
The reason I questioned marksman is because I know a lot of the hunters in BT\MH are specced marksman and I could never figure out quite why, I also thought BM gave better results.
The reason I questioned marksman is because I know a lot of the hunters in BT\MH are specced marksman and I could never figure out quite why, I also thought BM gave better results.
Well, the pet-unfriendly fights do tend to get more unfriendly and more common. And the massive DPS lead BM has earlier on begins to shrink. I'm not going to say MM is better DPS, as I really have no idea if it is, but so far all I have read and heard is that MM begins to get closer. Of course that could be because of the pet-unfriendly fights.
Since stage6 was shut down, I havent been able to find your movie anywhere else...perhaps I just havent been looking hard enough, or perhaps this has already been addressed in this thread, if thats the case, then I'm sorry for wasting your time, but if this is not the case, then would someone please paste a link to a place where this vid can be found.
As I have posted earlier I have not been able to find any other copy of Howitzer's video against Illidan. It would appear that he is going to have to host it in another location at this point in time unless someone knows of where the video can be found.
Well, the pet-unfriendly fights do tend to get more unfriendly and more common. And the massive DPS lead BM has earlier on begins to shrink. I'm not going to say MM is better DPS, as I really have no idea if it is, but so far all I have read and heard is that MM begins to get closer. Of course that could be because of the pet-unfriendly fights.
It could also be that as more and more guilds are moving to farming BT, the hunters you're inspecting are getting bored of being BM full time and switching back to MM - DPS loss for the hunter and the party, but non-DPS utility gained, and [debatably] more fun to play.
Our guild is 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK and will immediately hit Hyjal when 2.4 comes out. My question is this, with some haste gear being available for badges and other haste gear from hyjal/bt in general would respeccing MM be a better option for me? I haven't really looked at the numbers so I dont really understand the amount of haste it takes to increase weapon speed a particular degree. I like raiding as a BM hunter but from what i hear T6 instances are very unfriendly to pets. Currently, we have 5 raiding hunters who all happen to be BM so I'd be breaking the mold if I were to respec marks. Please help me if you can, I would greatly appreciate it.
P.S. I have the gun from alar and just over 150 badges if that helps
from what i hear T6 instances are very unfriendly to pets
I think Alienangel pretty much explained it : justifying respeccing Marksmanship because "my pet dies" doesn't sound right to me.
(some) Tier 6 fights are not melee friendly, that's a fact.
Still, your raid will bring rogues, arms/fury warriors, feral druids and Enh. chamans : you don't kick them from the guild the minute you can enter Mount Hyjal and Black Temple. And still, they survive, and do their job in the different encounters they come across.
That reminds me a lot of what was said around the time Void Reaver, The Lurker Below and Al'Ar were considered "pet unfridendly". Even before some tuning down on these fights, BM hunters just found ways to keep their pets alive.
Same applies to T6 raid instances. You've been raiding through T5 content with a pet on your side, learnt how to use him and keep him alive, and you think he's gonna die on the first Goul you'll send him to in Hyjal ?
When just entering T6 content, from T5, I believe a BM hunter deals more damage than a MM hunter.
(That might change later on with gear upgrades).
Respeccing MM because you think the playstyle is more enjoyable, or fits better what you like to do as a hunter is a whole different thing, and is, in my opinion, much more honest and understandable.
He meant take the entire line out. The problem with this that I've found is that it actually lowers my DPS due to the fact I run only the basic haste from the quiver and nothing more outside of Quick Shots or Rapid Fire. I've continued to use the castsequence macros with AS and MS added in with castrandom and KC on the final line, and my DPS has been higher than ever before.
So I swapped ove rto MM last week after we dropped Illidan. I wanted to see if I could maintain my dps now that I have almost all T6 level gear.
So far, what I have noticed:
1. Mana is a problem if I am not running Viper. I run out very, very fast.
2. Manually timing shots sucks even more. Perhaps I am doing them wrong, but am I trying to fit a AS/MS PLUS a SS between autoes? If so, that seems bloody near impossible.
3. My dps, so far, does not seem to ahve taken much of a hit, and on pet unfriendly fights, is a bit better. So that is good.
Questions:
1. Haste. Avoid it all? Just a little bit? It would seem that this is tied in with my shot rotation question - if I am only going to do 1 special between autoe's, it would seem like haste is just as important to a MM hunter as it is to a BM.
2. Is ti just me, or is TSA a pretty damn poor replacement for EW or FI?
3. From a raiding perspective, Silencing Shot is a poor replacement for BW as well.
4. Is my pet while solo really holding aggro a lot better, or is that my imagination? Once my gear got pretty good, I had almost given up with my pet holding aggro - now he seems to be holding it like a champ.
So I swapped ove rto MM last week after we dropped Illidan. I wanted to see if I could maintain my dps now that I have almost all T6 level gear.
So far, what I have noticed:
1. Mana is a problem if I am not running Viper. I run out very, very fast.
2. Manually timing shots sucks even more. Perhaps I am doing them wrong, but am I trying to fit a AS/MS PLUS a SS between autoes? If so, that seems bloody near impossible.
3. My dps, so far, does not seem to ahve taken much of a hit, and on pet unfriendly fights, is a bit better. So that is good.
Questions:
1. Haste. Avoid it all? Just a little bit? It would seem that this is tied in with my shot rotation question - if I am only going to do 1 special between autoe's, it would seem like haste is just as important to a MM hunter as it is to a BM.
2. Is ti just me, or is TSA a pretty damn poor replacement for EW or FI?
3. From a raiding perspective, Silencing Shot is a poor replacement for BW as well.
4. Is my pet while solo really holding aggro a lot better, or is that my imagination? Once my gear got pretty good, I had almost given up with my pet holding aggro - now he seems to be holding it like a champ.
Hello, I am nowhere near as progressed as you are, but I have been MM my entire career until about two weeks ago.
I think I can potentially answer some of these things.
Mana usage is very large for MM. I always had to chug Fel Mana pots and switch to Viper often (even with a pally judging wisdom). As far as aimed shot goes, its just poor dps, for any spec; too much pushback, even for a net 2.5 speed MM hunter. You should be trying for a auto > steady arcane > auto > steady > auto > steady multi >
and weave arcanes and multi's whenever their cooldowns are up. I also specc'd IAotH, and when it would proc, I would switch to almost a 1:1 rotation, so it became my mana efficient mode.
As for my two cents regarding your questions:
1. Haste is not highlty sought after. Possibly to tighten up any dead space in shot rotations, but I have never had this be a problem as MM, even when I was using a Season 1 crossbow (3.1 speed). I think some people have toyed with the idea of stacking haste to the point of being able to run a "heavy" 1:1, but to match serpent swiftness would require somewhere around 315 haste (sorry, I do not know the exact number) and likely subtact too much from your other stats, although I cannot say for certain, as I have not tried spreadsheeting this or aquiring sufficient gear in game.
2. Yes, Trueshot aura is pretty weak. Maybe when a hunter just hits 70 it outweighs the others, but it does not scale and becomes surpassed by the others rather quickly. If you consider what percentage of a party memembers' attack power increases by due to Trueshot aura, it becomes quite underwhelming.
3. Silent shot has little to no value in raids, in my experience.
4. Your pet's growl scales with its attack power, so MM pets become great at holding aggro. I very much noticed the opposite when I went from MM to BM, and had to back off or intimidate for my pet to keep aggro when farming, etc.
Oops my mistake(s). Need more coffee I guess. I mis-listed initially mis listed the 1.5:1 shot rotation as well.
To correct myself: auto > steady arcane > auto > steady > auto > steady multi >
What I have seen myself is that the initial steady, special cycle 1 for me does push back slightly on occassion (possibly due to my latency), when looking at my auto shot timer. On the cycle 2 however - the steady only cycle - the 1.5 second steady cast completes long before the next auto and I can begin the cycle 3 steady shot inside of the .5(ish) second cast time of my next auto without clipping, leaving up to 1.5 seconds available time for the multi shot in cycle 3 to release in proper time.
I have found often the first SS/AS shot to be a tight squeeze, but thereafter any SS/special cycles following a steady only cycle should be relatively easy to fit. No one likes clipping, but its not seem to be the deal breaker it is in BM. The greater difference between steady and auto times when compared to BM has always seemed to allow me some wiggle room and some minor pushback on an arcane has been far less detrimental than a SS pushback. I have found, at times, I feel that I am too far behind in time to fit in my special without absolutely clobbering my auto, I will simply delay my special for that cycle and get back on track on the next cycle, although in a perfect world that is not what any of us strive for.
I apologize for the lack of math here, this is just my in-game experience. Perhaps one of the others here can be more precise
For your shot rotations I recommend using the macro I use, it adds in AS and MS to the steady/auto, works fairly well with haste situations and adds in KC. Ive been using this macro for approx a month now in BT/Hyjal SSC/TK and have not had issues with it in terms of performance.
As for your concerns with mana consumption. Yes, mana consumption goes through the roof as Marks, the Efficiency talent though they may seem to be a waste are a god send and a blessing and go a long way towards helping. Also, I have personally begun to invest in using Fel Mana Potions, these are extremely valuable for hunters, I hardly have to revert back into Viper for regen and I'm allowed to go full bore on the boss (situation permitting). I pop a FMP when i hit roughly 90% mana to expidite the speed in which the CD comes up in relation to how much mana I've burned. Doing this I dont actually cap out and waste ticks while sitting at 100% mana because my consumption is simply too high.
As far as Haste goes, I personally use none outside of the base from Quiver, the haste gained during QS, RF, and BL. I dont use haste pots and with the mana consumption of MM being as high as it is, I dont want to burn that CD on something other than a FMP or SMP if I can absolutely help it.
Silencing shot isnt viable for raids unless your looking to throw 1 point somewhere, just about the only thing its good for is towards the end of a boss fight its a "throw everything you've got, including the kitchen sink" kind of shot due to the dmg coeff and mana cost, fortunately its an instant so it doesnt mess with steady/auto.
For pet aggro, this will be more of an issue with the MM tree becuase it pulls more focus away from your pets abilities and more towards your own personal abilities. Having said that what you should find is that while out soloing, your pet should be able to establish a considerable amount of initial threat but once you land a couple chain crits early, you'll be looking to kill it before it gets to you. Which is essentially how MM performs when putting forth 100% dps while soloing. To remedy this situation as best as I can think of I have scaled back my attacks by ommiting MS entirely and only run Steady/Auto/Arcane atacks while soloing unless Im MD'ing multiple mobs to my pet.
To add in MS, jes add it after the Arcane shot (example: /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi Shot) and your good to go in that respect. Its a spam macro, I advise running 2 versions one with MS and one without, during periods of time where your mana pool is under stress use the one without MS.
I have some clarification questions about MM, specifically regarding rotations and QF. Please tell me if any of the following statements are incorrect:
1) Assuming no haste gear, when QF procs, I am supposed to drop to a 1:1 rotation.
2) A 1:1 rotation does not necessarily mean steady/auto. It means special/auto.
3) QF procs infrequently enough that I will actually be able to use 1:1.5 the rest of the time.
4) QF procs are a time to "regen" mana by using less mana in your rotations.
Thanks!
P.S. I am currently survival. Can any hunters who have played survival and MM comment on how bad the mana problems actually are?
I picked up Cheeky's Spreadsheet and using a 1:1.5 without any multi-shot I gain 56 DPS with my current incomplete T6 gear, My only problem would probably be Mana Regen (could swap Ferocity for 2x combat experience and 3x hawk eye).
Hi everyone just found this site and looking for some advice.
I've been MM since level 1 and would like to stay that way, but I'm kind of stuck in a dps rut. I've never really been damage driven and have chosen to stay MM because I like playing the spec. Long story made short I've been doing 25 man content for a couple weeks now and am getting out performed pretty badly by everyone including people that have comparable gear. Saturday we did Mag's and I did pretty awful (like 500 something dps) and was called out for it by a couple people. I got a damage meter and did a Dr. Boom test and got up to 780 averaging around 740 dps (could somebody tell me what's a good mark of thumb?) My stats all seem fine with whats mentioned in this thread (2156 ap w/ tsa and aoth; 161 hit; 22.40% crit; 498 agil), so I've brought my problem down to my rotation or my attack speed. I'm doing the right moves but it's possible I'm clipping some autoshots. My ranged attack speed is at 2.36.
Right now I have wolfslayer which is faster than I'd like but I've had no luck with Sunfury and I'm not going to have 150 badges for a while. I guess I'm wondering if there's any alternatives that could help me out here for a weapon. I'm considering going BM until I can get a new weapon but I'd really rather stay MM.
Specwise it looks ok, take a point out of Savage Strikes and put it in Humanoid Slaying. You really do want to max it. Also take one point out of Imp. Sting and put it in Go for the Throat, maybe couple it with one from Imp Arcane Shot. As it is you can't reach your Autoshot anyway as it is too fast. But that one I'm not too certain about.
Yes, Wolfslayer is hurting you, but you are aware of this. Perhaps going PvP for the S1 crossbow? It should give you enough time on each auto to get your 1.5:1 rotation going and with some time to spare. If PvP isn't an option I can't guide you much as I'm BM.
However, do upgrade your scope. The critscope is best.
You are a fair bit over the hitcap, so perhaps looking for new pants would be an option? If you do Gruul you have a nice possibility there, but I'm sure you know that.
You are running with green quality gems, that amounts to a lot of difference when we are talking about all of them, more or less. Three of the gems are 'blue', you only need two for the meta, and in the case of the shoulders you don't really need the socketbonus.
However, even so you should do quite a bit better than 500 DPS. Do you use your pet actively all the time? Despoite being a lot less powerful than a BM pet it is still a massive portion of your potential DPS. And, please don't take it wrong if it doesn't apply, you don't use Aimed Shot in a normal rotation right? I see Hunters do it now and then, and it is a thing that can really hurt DPS over time.
Maybe post your rotation and what you do when and where. Then the more knowledgeables Hunters can jumpt to the rescue.
03/14/08, 11:47 AM
I mis-listed initially mis listed the 1.5:1 shot rotation as well.
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