WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 100

Sartuk · 09/11/08, 9:14 AM

Originally Posted by Aym

I dont think this is an unreasonable change. Four explosive shots in a row, from a PvP perspective, is very powerfull. I think that two free shots (meaning you can chain three in a row) seems fitting. Especially with the chance to proc off a sting, which surely is a buff, if the 15% chance is retained. That means that during a 18 second serpent sting (glyphed) you have 6 chances of proccing LaL, giving you a 90% chance to proc at some point during the 18 second duration - and if the initial shot can proc it aswell, you get a theoretical 105% chance to proc LaL each 18 seconds. Disregarding that, going per tick, you have a 5% chance to proc LaL each second, giving you 3 procs per minute - on paper, ofcourse.

Still, its a lot better than to have it proc only on the initial hit.

Just a small correction: Assuming it stays 15% per tic (which it wont), the actual chance to proc at least once on a serpent sting shot would be ~68%, assuming my coffee-less math is anywhere near correct. Percentages aren't additive, etc. etc. etc.

sjogren · 09/11/08, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

The added bonus of applying it as many times as you like for whatever duration you need is definitely a plus; on long-winded multi-add bosses you could even work it into your cycles: Switch it on whenever a new add comes to avoid pulling, regen a little, back off again. Or, say you get a FD resist, turn to mana-battery mode instead of switching off attack; you still throttle TPS but keep at least a modicum of DPS and regen to boot.

The double gcd:s kind of speak against using it too often, though. Of course if the alternative is to twiddle your thumbs instead, then yeah, some mana regen is definitely better.

Killua · 09/11/08, 9:27 AM

Originally Posted by sjogren

The double gcd:s kind of speak against using it too often, though. Of course if the alternative is to twiddle your thumbs instead, then yeah, some mana regen is definitely better.

Aspects only incur a 1s global cooldown since 1 or 2 builds in the beta, so only 2 seconds wasted on switching.

Melkunie · 09/11/08, 9:34 AM

Quickly done comparison 25 vs 10 man tier 7

agi = +37
stam = +53
int = +23
haste = +25
crit = +14
ap = +88
armor ignore = Changed in latest build. Penetration vs ignore so cannot compare yet.

Not much difference between single items, but it adds up fast like you can see.

The items simply gain from there previous stats, no fancy new stats that could make certain versions better like more AP on 10 mans and more haste on 25 mans(i would use the 10 man version then). Boring but progression wise a good choice.

Also, could these sets share set bonuses like arena armor?

sjogren · 09/11/08, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Killua

Aspects only incur a 1s global cooldown since 1 or 2 builds in the beta, so only 2 seconds wasted on switching.

Yes, but still "wasted" time. I mean, if you spend 10s on mana regen, you only get 80% viper time. If you spend 20s, you get 90% viper time.

Gokey · 09/11/08, 9:45 AM

My live reads: 'Enemies armor reduced by 1851'

On beta, at level 72, 1851 pre-wotlk armor pen reads: 'Enemy armor reduced by up to 31.15%'

Eni · 09/11/08, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Napkin math:

The way I see it (raid-buffed): 12k mana pool, 5k base, BM spec

Auto shot (say 2,9 base speed = 1,5 speed after all haste effects, which is not unrealistic): 1/1,5 = 0,67 per second
Steady Shot (say every 1,5 sec after all haste) = 1/1,5 = 0,67 per second

Total shots per second = 1,33

12k * 2,9/100 * 1,33 = 452 mana per second

At the same time you gain roughly 110 mana per second from buffs/talents (Invigoration, JoW) and spend 130 mana per second on shots (Steady Spam, 4% base of 5000 on a 1,5 sec frequency = 5000*0,04/1,5 = ~130).

Net gain 452-30 = 432 mana per second.

Time to full mana = 12k / 432 = 27,7 seconds

atm viper gives mane back on all dmg from the hunter. (sting tics, traps, .) but melee.

Ufthak · 09/11/08, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Melkunie

Quickly done comparison 25 vs 10 man tier 7

Also, could these sets share set bonuses like arena armor?

I believe that was the stated intention. However I can no longer find the post. Sorry.

Aym · 09/11/08, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Catalept

Firstly, I sincerely doubt they'll keep the proc-rate the same, only changing it to 'per tick'.

Secondly, from a PvE perspective, LnL just allows you to replace one special with a slightly higher damage one. From a PvP perspective, however, it allows you to replace a 1.5-second cast with an instant... as I said, in the case of LnL, I'm just not sure that there's a middle ground where it's useful in both, but not OP in either.

That depends on your spec. For example, as a PvE survival hunter, there is quite a difference between my steady shot and my explosive shot. Its not nearly as big for MM hunters, obviously, as they just use arcane shot.

KraxisSingular · 09/11/08, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Eni

atm viper gives mane back on all dmg from the hunter. (sting tics, traps, .) but melee.

How does it work?

Let's assume I use an Explosive trap, will the mana proc only on the explosion, or also on the ticks? The same with the stings. Only the application? If not, then DoT based mechanical could help a lot. Oh and btw, does all attacks count as weaponspeed regeneration? If so then getting the slowest weapon will be a great help since we won't get faster specials but they would then proc for mor mana per hit.

Eni · 09/11/08, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

How does it work?

Let's assume I use an Explosive trap, will the mana proc only on the explosion, or also on the ticks? The same with the stings. Only the application? If not, then DoT based mechanical could help a lot. Oh and btw, does all attacks count as weaponspeed regeneration? If so then getting the slowest weapon will be a great help since we won't get faster specials but they would then proc for mor mana per hit.

On all dmg that means ticks and trigger if the trigger do dmg. Special like viper sting and scorpid sting don't give mana back.

and the mana is same no matter where the dmg come from.

lets say i fight 4 mobs i have serpent sting on 2 of them and then i put down a explosive trap i now get 200*4 from the start hit ( 200 is the mana i get back for having AotV. and 4 is the mobs that get hit) then i melee the target and get no mana back since it is a melee attack, then ss ticks on the first target and i get 200 mana back and then it tick on the next target and get 200 again then explosion ticks and i get 200*4 back then i go range and shot a auto shot and get 200 back and then multi and get 200*3 bakck then use volley on all 4 and get 200 per hit back (200*4*6sec) and so on.

Sartuk · 09/11/08, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Melkunie

Quickly done comparison 25 vs 10 man tier 7

agi = +37
stam = +53
int = +23
haste = +25
crit = +14
ap = +88
armor ignore = Changed in latest build. Penetration vs ignore so cannot compare yet.

Not much difference between single items, but it adds up fast like you can see.

The items simply gain from there previous stats, no fancy new stats that could make certain versions better like more AP on 10 mans and more haste on 25 mans(i would use the 10 man version then). Boring but progression wise a good choice.

Also, could these sets share set bonuses like arena armor?

I'm pretty happy about the difference between 10 and 25 man gear. It makes the 25 man obviously better, but not really shockingly so on a piece by piece basis. Assuming this keeps up, 10 mans should at least be a somewhat viable means of gearing, especially if that's all your current guild can do (IE, gear up in 10 mans, move on to a better guild with your 10 man gear which wont actually be gimp for 25 man content.) I like it!

As for LnL, yeah, replacing a steady with an explosive is a big difference, but unless they really do buff that proc rate from stings up, even 2 extra shots wont be *that* huge of a boost. Still worth taking considering where it is, especially if you intend on ever PvP'ing, though.

Cranch · 09/11/08, 12:45 PM

Kill shot question: in the 200% Weapon Damage portion, what exactly is being used? Is it the damage range of your ranged weapon?

The RAP needed for the old kill shot to match the new is (2100-x)/.15, where x is "weapon damage," so I am curious as to exactly what a reasonable value for x is.

Unahorn · 09/11/08, 12:52 PM

Hello there,

I've been an avid reader of these boards for a few years now, not posted yet though I think.

edit: removed request to crosspost on beta-boards, /ignore that.

I've been thinking about our whole mana regen situation and the band-aid fix that's been in place for us for a while now (Aspect of the Viper). In the current live version our base mana regen has been messed up for a while now (especially after the general mana regen mechanic changes). Currently on live I have 2 MP5 passive in combat without AotV.

All other mana using classes have good possibilities to gear for passive mana regen through their normal gear. Hunters lack severely in this department.

Since we've already got plenty of stats on our gear we have to worry about (agility, stamina, intellect, crit, hit, haste, Armor Penetration) there really is no room to gear for a lot of passive mana regen (through spirit or MP5).

It would be nice to give hunters a passive mana regen through our intellect instead of spirit, or as a different option, give hunters a passive trainable skill that gives us spirit equal to x% of our intellect.

This way we gain some passive mana regen without having to resort ot itemizing for another stat on our gear.
Because having a passive mana regen of 2 MP5 in combat just doesn't make sense for a mana using class.

Sartuk · 09/11/08, 12:57 PM

See, I don't mind AotV as a "bandaid fix" as long as its actually decently useful. On live, it sort of fails. I think they have the right idea now on Beta, the numbers just need some serious tweaking (IE, lower the damage reduction significantly.)

That said, *some* sort of passive regen would be fantastic, something like you suggested. All I'm saying is that the AotV changes so far are, on the whole, still very promising, so I wouldn't lose all faith in this bandaid fix yet.

Ketari · 09/11/08, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

More than reasonable given (1) it's not on a CD (2)doesn't require 8s uninterrupted channeling and (3)you do more than 50% of your DPS while channeling (I assume pet's DPS doesn't halve).

Evocate isn't a Mage's only means of regeneration, let's see.. they also have mana gems and mage armour as well as 5 arcane, 2 fire and 2 frost talents which return mana, none of them having a significant opportunity cost, and mana are low enough in their trees to stack (even efficientcy is a stretch to stack for Hunters). Yes, they push through more mana than we do, but they can sustain damage for far longer than we can.

We have just Viper base, and no spirit or mp5 on our gear.

BM has Invigoration, which was allready even pre-nerf was performing poorly in testing.

MM can stack talents for a 13% cost reduction on its common shots, and there's Chimera/viper, which cripples MM damage since they depend quite heavily on Chimera/serpent to compete in damage terms with BM - you have to spend 20% of your cooldowns on it, it only works against mana using enemies and it dosn't scale.

SV has Thrill (currently bugged and returning too much on explosive, which explains why SV Hunter mana seems fine), and replenishment - I've assumed in my theorycrfting that replenishment is allways provided by someone, which is reasonable for 10-mans, less so for 25-mans (i.e. Hunters are penalised heavily for the larger raid size)

Dosn't quite compare, does it?

Evocate does not dictate entirely which stats are best for DPS (haste and int) or make using all but a single spell (steady shot) a bad choice in DPS terms or a single spec (BM) entirely superior to the other choices because of a single talent (serpents swiftness) despite all other talents.

There needs to be a substantial revision before it goes live. Changing the numbers in non-radical ways will still heavily favour haste/int itemisation, spamming steady shot only and BM spec

Sartuk · 09/11/08, 1:02 PM

I was actually unaware of Thrill being bugged with Explosive Shot. That would explain my lack of mana issues. How much extra is it actually returning, if you know?

Ketari · 09/11/08, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sartuk

I was actually unaware of Thrill being bugged with Explosive Shot. That would explain my lack of mana issues. How much extra is it actually returning, if you know?

It's potentially proccing off each tick rather than just off the shot itself.

Melkunie · 09/11/08, 1:24 PM

Good news for the many Tauren hunter's out there. Just came back from the beta and our hitbox is the same size as a noggenfogger and deviate fishes. What a big change and not a single comment from Blizzard about it.

◊ Lactose · 09/11/08, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Ketari

BM has Invigoration, which was allready even pre-nerf was performing poorly in testing.

While Invigoration might have been performing poorly in some tests, I wouldn't give it too much weight.
Personally, the only reports I've heard from others about Invigoration have been from soloing or similar - not so much bosses or raid scenarios. From my own personal experience and testing I know Invigoration isn't all that awesome in soloing, for a number of reasons:
- Pet is using global cooldowns on e.g. Growl, reducing amount of special attacks and the use of active Invigoration charges.
- Single fights don't last enough for a freshly procced Invigoration to be of much use - if I crit a mob, it will rarely (if ever) survive long enough for 3 special attacks from my pet.
- Pet is often spending some time stunned, or snared while the mob runs off to kill me after critting. The pet often lags behind, unable to attack at all before the mob is dead (this might be related to the extreme latency we're experiencing at times, though).

The end result based on the and solo testing is generally the benefit is much, much lower than it would be in a raid setting (which is mostly what we're concerning ourselves with).

Regarding Kill Shot, most (every?) shot referring to Weapon Damage refer to the base damage on the weapon itself. In Steady Shot's case, this is normalized to that of a 2.8 speed weapon, but for everything else I can think of it's just the pure listed weapon range.

Shandara · 09/11/08, 1:38 PM

What I'd like to see is a full 25-man raid doing some DPS/longevity tests on a target dummy. Fraps/WWS it and see how long you can go on.

Only then can we put Invigoration and like talents in their proper context (i.e. raiding and fully buffed).

Cranch · 09/11/08, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Lactose

Regarding Kill Shot, most (every?) shot referring to Weapon Damage refer to the base damage on the weapon itself. In Steady Shot's case, this is normalized to that of a 2.8 speed weapon, but for everything else I can think of it's just the pure listed weapon range.

Thanks, Lactose. We might see say 250 dps bows at the end of LK, meaning roughly 750 weapon damage. That'd work out to ~9000 RAP needed for the new kill shot to match the old (rather than the 12.5K I posted earlier.)

Zurai · 09/11/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Melkunie

Good news for the many Tauren hunter's out there. Just came back from the beta and our hitbox is the same size as a noggenfogger and deviate fishes. What a big change and not a single comment from Blizzard about it.

Hallelujah. I've been complaining about our hit boxes since Onyxia.

Melkunie · 09/11/08, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Zurai

Hallelujah. I've been complaining about our hit boxes since Onyxia.

Don't get to excited yet. The newest version also screwed up faces of some races. I remember a similar situation in TBC beta. They gave taurens a new(awesome) crossbow and gun animation similar to what orcs have. A sidewards recoil. But that push also gave some big errors so they rollbacked and never introduced the recoil animation again and we are stuck with a rather boring shoot animation.

It's also not in the patchnotes and no blue said anything about it.

For now, its freaking amazing! No more deviate fishes for KJ shield.

◊ Jawbone · 09/11/08, 2:02 PM

I'm really concerned about the Armor Penetration changes. As with all percentile based reductions, the more someone has the better the reduction is against them. Take some quick napkin maths:

A previous poster said that 1700~ actuall is now 30%~, so I'll be using those numbers.

15000 armor - 30.00% = 10500
15000 armor - 1700 = 13300
new system better

10000 armor - 30.00% = 7000
10000 armor - 1700 = 8300
new system better

5000 armor - 30.00% = 3500
5000 armor - 1700 = 3300
old system better

If the stat factors current armor over maximum armor, then reductions to the targets armor from our pets, our warriors, our druids, etc., will actually decrease the effectiveness of a stat we're finding all over our gear. This also means that casters, who frequently find themselves sub-5k armor, will be more resilient (before resilience) against all physical attacks, while we have no additional protection against them.

Layman's terms: Casters will always have armor against physical targets, but physical (and all classes for that matter) have no solid stat to reduce damage from spells. I do not count resists because of how horrible the mechanic is. Armor ALWAYS prevents direct physical damage, resists SOMETIMES prevent spell damage.

Please tell me I'm reading all this wrong. I dearly want to be wrong.