WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 103

cutfang · 09/12/08, 2:43 PM

Not sure if anyone brought this up, since its relatively minor, but if the T7 set is carrying a lot of haste then wont hunters (especially BM) have to bring a stupid amount of bullets for raiding Naxx? I havn't seen any new ammo pouches, so maybe this isnt a problem at all.

Kaejin · 09/12/08, 3:20 PM

Something I hadn't thought to ask until now: Any new quivers/ammo pouches?

*Skarsnik* · 09/12/08, 4:05 PM

Ok, I've seen the Wasp special ability eluded to in a couple recent posts. The way I read it, it is the only pet ability that benefits the whole raid, and since I'm survival specced, raid wide is what I am here for anyway (though the new hunting party is delicious, that's a topic I'll mention in just a sec).

Is the armor reducc that the wasp offers stackable with Sunder armor, FF, and or Curse of Recklessness? I haven't seen anything that says so either way, and am wondering whether it would be worth more to the raid overall to bring that extra armor debuff, instead of the occasional howl that a wolf offers. Since the howl range is only 20 yards, and once he's in melee with the mob, I myself am more than 30 yards from him, the howl rarely is useful to me. The other reason I'm hesitant to use a wolf is that, with hunting party now to consider, the party I'm placed with in a raid may be very much a caster or healer group. If that is the case, howl is practically useless. Just seems that a wasp's buff, ASSUMING IT STACKS, is the best overall pet skill out there.... aaaaand, discuss.

Doncabesa · 09/12/08, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by *Skarsnik*

Ok, I've seen the Wasp special ability eluded to in a couple recent posts. The way I read it, it is the only pet ability that benefits the whole raid, and since I'm survival specced, raid wide is what I am here for anyway (though the new hunting party is delicious, that's a topic I'll mention in just a sec).

Is the armor reducc that the wasp offers stackable with Sunder armor, FF, and or Curse of Recklessness? I haven't seen anything that says so either way, and am wondering whether it would be worth more to the raid overall to bring that extra armor debuff, instead of the occasional howl that a wolf offers. Since the howl range is only 20 yards, and once he's in melee with the mob, I myself am more than 30 yards from him, the howl rarely is useful to me. The other reason I'm hesitant to use a wolf is that, with hunting party now to consider, the party I'm placed with in a raid may be very much a caster or healer group. If that is the case, howl is practically useless. Just seems that a wasp's buff, ASSUMING IT STACKS, is the best overall pet skill out there.... aaaaand, discuss.

This was answered by blizzard back on 8/28/08, first search result on google World of Warcraft (English) Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

Originally Posted by Zarhym(Blizzard)

There are thirty or so different categories into which buffs and debuffs fit. Here you will find a comprehensive list of the changes made broken down by category and which spells/talents are in that category.

Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness

Killua · 09/12/08, 4:41 PM

As far as I know wasps are exotic pets, so you need to be BM to bring one.
edit: Somehow worms being an exotic pet and bringing the other armor reduction debuff lead me to believe it was an exotic pet, too. my mistake.

*Skarsnik* · 09/12/08, 5:00 PM

It is not an exotic pet, but a new pet class.

Doncabesa, your post was helpful, but doesn't fully clarify whether Sting will stack or not.

Steelfleece · 09/12/08, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Killua

As far as I know wasps are exotic pets, so you need to be BM to bring one.

That's incorrect; Wasps are not exotic pets.

efb;

Sting won't stack with Faerie Fire or Curse of Recklessness (which will not stack with each other either).

I'll also add I haven't seen any new quivers or ammo pouches.

Doncabesa · 09/12/08, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by *Skarsnik*

It is not an exotic pet, but a new pet class.

Doncabesa, your post was helpful, but doesn't fully clarify whether Sting will stack or not.

Yes it did actually, please read the post by the blizzard employee. That list clearly states what will and will not stack. Sting will not stack with the similar abilities listed as minor debuffs (CoR and FF). It will however stack with the "major debuffs" for armor removal.

*Skarsnik* · 09/12/08, 6:26 PM

Ah, I was under the impression that FF and recklessness stacked(which led me to think Sting might also stack), but I was apparently mistaken, thank you very much for the clarification!

Kutak · 09/12/08, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by *Skarsnik*

Is the armor reducc that the wasp offers stackable with Sunder armor, FF, and or Curse of Recklessness? I haven't seen anything that says so either way, and am wondering whether it would be worth more to the raid overall to bring that extra armor debuff, instead of the occasional howl that a wolf offers. Since the howl range is only 20 yards, and once he's in melee with the mob, I myself am more than 30 yards from him, the howl rarely is useful to me. The other reason I'm hesitant to use a wolf is that, with hunting party now to consider, the party I'm placed with in a raid may be very much a caster or healer group. If that is the case, howl is practically useless. Just seems that a wasp's buff, ASSUMING IT STACKS, is the best overall pet skill out there.... aaaaand, discuss.

Hunting party applies replenishment to raid or party members, so if you're put in a certain group over another, it won't be because of hunting party. Also, you might end up being within 30 yards of your pet anyways, because of potentially melee-provided buffs like windfury totem, unless they have their ranges extended.

Mikari · 09/12/08, 7:17 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

The conversion rate is apparently exactly 7 (I used about 30 items on Wowhead as a comparison). So 7 'ignore armor' in Live is 1 ArP Rating in Beta.

As for the amount of rating needed for 1%, I couldn't match up 15,38 with any known ratings (like crit rating) as a closest match so I'll go with 15,38 for the moment.

One question though, does it work before or after debuffs are applied (my guess is after). That shouldn't be too hard to check.

Whitetooth stated the following in the Combat Rating thread.

All items had the "ignore armor" stat converted to ArP rating with a conversion ratio of 7 ignore armor = 1 ArP rating.
At level 70, 7.4 ArP rating reduces enemy armor by up to 1%.

Rating	Level 60	Level 70	Level 80
Armor Penetration	4.69512177	7.40384579	15.39529991

Chul · 09/12/08, 9:35 PM

Upcoming Pet Talent changes:

Here are some changes you'll see next build or so. I may have forgotten some.

-- Taunt no longer shares a cooldown with Growl and Cower.
-- Avoidance, not Great Resistance, is the prereq for Wolverine Bite.
-- We are still trying to rework Heart of the Phoenix to get around the shortcomings.
-- Tenacity and Ferocity pets lost their armor multiplier but it was given to all pets at base. The net effect is that Cunning pets won't be at a stat deficit compared to the other trees.
-- Roar of Recovery provides more mana.
-- Lick Your Wounds now with faster licking technology.
-- Carrion Feeder cooldown dropped to 30. We can't easily change the range because this spells uses the same tech as the undead racial.
-- Focus cost removed from Bullheaded.
-- Not directly talent-related, but rather than reworking Prowl, cats got a second damage ability, Rake. It felt odd for them to shift from most desired pet to one of the least desired.

As far as who belongs to which tree, those decisions were made largely based on the pet special ability, not what ecologically makes more sense with the tree's theme. Strong CC or other PvP-useful abilities were generally given the Cunning tree, just because we didn't also want to see those same pets as the most popular when raiding or soloing. The goal is to have a lot more options about which pet you're going to bring. With the Cunning stat change and tree rework, hopefully that will include those animals as well.

Rather than start another thread, feel free to talk about any of the pet family abilities (Rake, Web, Poison Spit etc.) as well within this one.

Chul · 09/12/08, 9:42 PM

Saw this in the same thread as the above:

Bite/Claw/Smack: These appear to scale with AP now (good) but they still seem to do less damage than regular pet attacks (which also scale with AP, naturally). It just feels off for attacks that require a limited resource and do nothing except for damage to do less damage than pet autoattacks.

Can people in beta investigate this? What is the scaling? Are all physical damage specials now scaling, or just the focus dumps?

Would be good to double check the scaling on magic based specials to see if that changed any.

Kaejin · 09/12/08, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by Kutak

Hunting party applies replenishment to raid or party members, so if you're put in a certain group over another, it won't be because of hunting party. Also, you might end up being within 30 yards of your pet anyways, because of potentially melee-provided buffs like windfury totem, unless they have their ranges extended.

Howl should be 40 yards now, or at least it was stated that they were going to change it to 40 yards. Ghostcrawler said something about it weeks ago.

Steelfleece · 09/13/08, 5:48 AM

Originally Posted by Chul

Saw this in the same thread as the above:

Can people in beta investigate this? What is the scaling? Are all physical damage specials now scaling, or just the focus dumps?

Would be good to double check the scaling on magic based specials to see if that changed any.

It's hard for me to tell at a glance, really--I'm Beast Mastery, and my pet's bites and Monstrous Bites are doing about the same amount of damage--between 200 and 300. I'm not sure if that's due to scaling with AP, however, or just all the +%damage that a BM pet gets.

On the other hand, on the boss of the Obsidian Dragonshrine raid I did see a bite for 1300+ without Bestial Wrath, so there might be some scaling. My pet's bite seems to be doing around the same amount of damage as its normal hits right now, perhaps slightly less.

Sorry I can't be more helpful in that regard, but I'm sure someone else will confirm/deny this soon.

Asmolicious · 09/13/08, 8:41 AM

Has anyone who has been crunching numbers noticed the true value of seperation anxiety?

The talent tooltip implies 20% while the buff granted's tooltip states 10%.

Tyne2 · 09/13/08, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

It's hard for me to tell at a glance, really--I'm Beast Mastery, and my pet's bites and Monstrous Bites are doing about the same amount of damage--between 200 and 300. I'm not sure if that's due to scaling with AP, however, or just all the +%damage that a BM pet gets.

On the other hand, on the boss of the Obsidian Dragonshrine raid I did see a bite for 1300+ without Bestial Wrath

It’s tough to tell, those numbers (Excluding the 1300 bite) could just be pet specials without any scaling. Max Rank Claw/Bite/Smack is 118-168 according to wow-head. Depending on your talents you could get up to:

1.03 * 1.09 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.25 = 2.22
118 * 2.22 = 261.96
168 * 2.22 = 372.96

Throw in 20% damage reduction and you are looking at about 200-300 damage pet specials.

Since you are using Devilsaur you could get another 1.09, making it 2.42, or 285.56–406.56. Now the mob could have 26% damage reduction and you’d still see 200-300 specials.

The 1300 Bite seems really high though. You’d need a 565 damage special and it would have to be a Ferocity Pet with Spider’s Bite to see a number that high.

Mikari · 09/13/08, 4:19 PM

GC edited his post to add more about cats

Cats have Rake, Prowl and Bite. Prowl has almost no combat use. Bite is spammable. Rake has a short cooldown like other pet abilities, but it's a bleed like the druid attack.

I'm guessing Rake will benefit from Mangle then.

TrevvyTrev · 09/13/08, 9:17 PM

GC confirms pet specials scale with attack power here: Beta forums: Pet Damage Completely Off?

I also tested this myself before this was posted. Stripped down out of most of my gear and turned of Aspect of the Hawk, and recorded max bites (level 72 worm against level 80 dummy) of 151. Re-equipped gear and got max bites of 184. Tests were run without any debuffs (not even acid spit), and I ran them long enough to confirm the max damage ranges but didn't do a test that would remotely help figure out exactly what the scaling is.

kennethhead · 09/13/08, 9:40 PM

I think if explosive shot is worth using 10% of you base mana with the mana regen we give now then this will be the
survival spec, Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft . if Explosive shot turns out to be to mana intensive for anything then its point will just go back into hunting party.

Disargeria · 09/13/08, 9:55 PM

Originally Posted by kennethhead

I think if explosive shot is worth using 10% of you base mana with the mana regen we give now then this will be the
survival spec, Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft . if Explosive shot turns out to be to mana intensive for anything then its point will just go back into hunting party.

Arcane Shot is 7% base mana. Explosive shot is worth it, by far.

kennethhead · 09/13/08, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Disargeria

Arcane Shot is 7% base mana. Explosive shot is worth it, by far.

I agree with you, i wish i had 3 more points to put into improved arcane shot, 15% more damage now, thats insane

MetallicaRulez0 · 09/14/08, 12:02 AM

Explosive Shot is probably the single best new ability in beta right now. Seriously. It's pretty ridiculous even after the T.N.T. nerf. Not that the beta servers are stable enough to test it... but that's another issue altogether.

Chul · 09/14/08, 12:35 AM

Performed some initial tests and it looks like the scaling for Claw/Bite/Smack is 7% of pets AP.

EDIT: Some Data:

No talents, just Happy bonus, Orc Racial and Ferocity racial (1.44375 multiplier)
Used Training Dummy, which has no armour
Note: Not a large data sample.

Pet AP: 365
Min Claw: 116 (calculated: (54+7%*365)*1.44375=~115)
Max Claw: 146 (calculated: (76+7%*365)*1.44375=~146)

Pet AP: 741
Min Claw: 152 (calculated: (54+7%*741)*1.44375=~152)
Max Claw: 185 (calculated: (76+7%*741)*1.44375=~184)

EDIT2:
Looks like Monstrous Bite also uses 7% of pets AP (Note that I hit MB manually, then waited for the MB proc to fade before manually hitting MB again).

This time with talents, but I de-spec'd the devilsaur so it had Happy+Orc Racial+Ferocity Racial+Unleashed Fury (1.7325 multiplier)
Used Training Dummy, which has no armour
Note: Not a large data sample.

Pet AP: 675
Min MB: 156 (calculated: 43+7%*675)*1.7325=~156
Max MB: 178 (calculated: 57+7%*675)*1.7325=~180

Shandara · 09/14/08, 5:17 AM

7% seems like a feasible number.

Could you test whether 'magic' attacks like Lightning Breath also have had their scaling changed?