WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 106

Gonkish · 09/17/08, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

On the PTR I noticed that Charge and Warp trigger each other's cooldowns. What other pet skills are rendered more or less useless by pet talents, or is that the only one?

I think they said they're going to rework Warp somehow.

KraxisSingular · 09/17/08, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

This is what I was thinking on the PTR when I was fooling around yesterday. 1% mana returned on pet crit is surprisingly bad, at least at level 70.

Pet special crit to boot. It isn't as if we get too many of those anyway. I find the talent to be pretty weak. Hardly the 1% damage per talent that is a sort of benchmark.

And I agree on MM going to scale like madness with the 22% +damage talents. Compared to the 7(10)% of BM and the 5(7)(10) for Survival it is pretty damn good.
Any DPS tests really should be done in the presence of a WF totem. We know it is going to have a major impact on DPS, so we need to know what we will do with it as well as without it. But with a similar speed of Steady and major bonus to damage and AP I think MM is going to be hard to top, especially for BM.

Trickytrout · 09/17/08, 1:30 AM

And I agree on MM going to scale like madness with the 22% +damage talents. Compared to the 7(10)% of BM and the 5(7)(10) for Survival it is pretty damn good.
Any DPS tests really should be done in the presence of a WF totem. We know it is going to have a major impact on DPS, so we need to know what we will do with it as well as without it. But with a similar speed of Steady and major bonus to damage and AP I think MM is going to be hard to top, especially for BM.

When it comes to just hunter DPS (no pet), MM will probably win. The one thing that will keep BM even competitive in Wrath is the pet DPS. We should really look into BM vs. MM pet damage to see what the gap between the two is, and whether or not BM pets damage is truly enough to overcome the gap between MM.

For example: x=MM hunter dps, a=MM pet DPS and y=BM hunter dps, b=BM pet dps;

if x>y and b>a, is x+a>y+b?

Hamurabi · 09/17/08, 2:13 AM

Originally Posted by Trickytrout

When it comes to just hunter DPS (no pet), MM will probably win. The one thing that will keep BM even competitive in Wrath is the pet DPS. We should really look into BM vs. MM pet damage to see what the gap between the two is, and whether or not BM pets damage is truly enough to overcome the gap between MM.

For example: x=MM hunter dps, a=MM pet DPS and y=BM hunter dps, b=BM pet dps;

if x>y and b>a, is x+a>y+b?

I'm coming into this discussion a little blind, but any comparison of MM DPS to BM DPS for 3.0+ without considering the ridiculously mana-intensive MM rotation [unless you cut out Multi-Shot I guess, but given that you can potentially spend six points improving the ability, and that it does absolutely ridiculous damage when you invest those points, I don't really see cutting it out as a particularly appetizing choice] is a fallacy. You just chew through mana like it's nothing, there's next to no sustainability without resorting to Viper every thirty seconds.

Sure, you could, reasonably, put out a ton of damage with your flat +17% damage to targets that you're Tracking and have a Hunter's Mark up on, and a whopping passive (+150 from Aspect Mastery + your intellect) x 124% ranged AP... but you'd be OOM a minute later. Imho, Thrill of the Hunt, or something akin to it, should've been dropped deep into the MM tree ages ago.

Mogre · 09/17/08, 6:14 AM

I am under the impression that the target dummies cannot dodge or parry. For hunters, that's not a large concern, but for our pets, dodge and parry do play a role in mitigating pet damage (along side armor). That might account for BM doing so much better on the dummies than SV or MM.

Using a pet that's 3+ levels lower than the dummies might equal things out with its innate miss chance vs higher level mobs and their (dummies') lack of parry and dodge for mitigation purposes.

Pintofbrew · 09/17/08, 7:42 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

On the PTR I noticed that Charge and Warp trigger each other's cooldowns. What other pet skills are rendered more or less useless by pet talents, or is that the only one?

Not exactly new, but relevant given the change in Cower, Growl and Cower share cool-downs, obviously so you can't growl and cower to both tank and have reduced damage intake at the same time.

Steelfleece · 09/17/08, 7:52 AM

I don't think a pet should get parried much since they automatically position behind a mob nowadays, for most mobs anyway.

Anyway, from the raiding I've been doing it seems to me that Survival and BM are both viable for DPS as things are at the moment. Niether runs out of mana very fast with replenishment (of course, as BM I was mostly doing pure Steady Spam with a Serpent Sting tossed in when I thought my mana pool could handle it). And placement on the damage meters looks good.

Roywyn · 09/17/08, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by Mogre

I am under the impression that the target dummies cannot dodge or parry. For hunters, that's not a large concern, but for our pets, dodge and parry do play a role in mitigating pet damage (along side armor). That might account for BM doing so much better on the dummies than SV or MM.

Using a pet that's 3+ levels lower than the dummies might equal things out with its innate miss chance vs higher level mobs and their (dummies') lack of parry and dodge for mitigation purposes.

The dummies can very well parry dodge, it's pretty painful for melee testing.

Even worse, they don't even have a backside. You, or rather your pets, get parried from everywhere around them, no matter where you stand.
Also, I think Rogues/Druids can't use Backstab/Shred either because of that, not 100% sure though.

jurgan · 09/17/08, 8:38 AM

Hi. Usually I lurk amongst these threads and so this is my first post but with the advent of patch 3.0.2 on the way I wanted to ask some questions as I've fairly certain I've not come across the information as of yet. If it is there then I do apologise for the needless post.

Now the questions I wish to ask is, the first one relates to the new Spirit Bond.

- Spirit Bond. Granting 2% Health Regen to the hunter and pet when the pet is active as well as granting a 10% healing bonus done to yourself and your pet.

Will that 10% Bonus to healing affect the pet's own talent abilities. Notably that of Loyalty - 20% Chance on attack to grant +10% Happiness and heal for 5% of pet's total HP. And of the Lick Your Wounds talent, heals for 100% of the pet's total hp (a channeled ability). The first being a proc based ability the second being a triggered ability.

Secondly just how much worth is it to rely on procs, notably that from the talent Cobra Strikes - 60% Chance on a crit from Arcane, Steady and Kill Shot to grant your pet a 100% Crit chance on it's next two Special Attacks. Would I benefit putting those three points elsewhere, like Longevity for decreased CD on certain abilities or rely on a Proc chance.

Thanks for the time taken to read.

KraxisSingular · 09/17/08, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by Hamurabi

I'm coming into this discussion a little blind, but any comparison of MM DPS to BM DPS for 3.0+ without considering the ridiculously mana-intensive MM rotation [unless you cut out Multi-Shot I guess, but given that you can potentially spend six points improving the ability, and that it does absolutely ridiculous damage when you invest those points, I don't really see cutting it out as a particularly appetizing choice] is a fallacy. You just chew through mana like it's nothing, there's next to no sustainability without resorting to Viper every thirty seconds.

Sure, you could, reasonably, put out a ton of damage with your flat +17% damage to targets that you're Tracking and have a Hunter's Mark up on, and a whopping passive (+150 from Aspect Mastery + your intellect) x 124% ranged AP... but you'd be OOM a minute later. Imho, Thrill of the Hunt, or something akin to it, should've been dropped deep into the MM tree ages ago.

Multi is practically dead. It is a weakness in the MM tree. 6 points for a boost of an ability on a 10 sec CD. You are much better off dropping it and go for Serpent and from then on just Steady (glyphed up of course) - Chimera. Lot more longevity for a slight loss in DPS. If you are suddenly finding yourself swimming in mana, then sure use Multi, just like BMs really should if they have enough mana at this time. But don't spec for it, it is far too expensive.

About the mana overall. We have very little information about consumption in raids with mana totems (mana tide if it is also raidwide will be awesome), replenishment and JoW (even nerfed it looks to be huge). Who knows, it might just be enough, and if it is then I would say MM is the tree that looks best due to the fact that it doesn't have wasted points in some manaregen ability. Of course the others could then spec out of it, not that Invigoration looks to be anything impressive.

Mogre · 09/17/08, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

I don't think a pet should get parried much since they automatically position behind a mob nowadays, for most mobs anyway.

On live, they will position themselves behind a mob if Growl is off autocast and will get in front if it is on.

But yeah, the dummies having 360 degree "front sides" kind of makes my assumption a bit moot.

Steelfleece · 09/17/08, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by jurgan

Hi. Usually I lurk amongst these threads and so this is my first post but with the advent of patch 3.0.2 on the way I wanted to ask some questions as I've fairly certain I've not come across the information as of yet. If it is there then I do apologise for the needless post.

Now the questions I wish to ask is, the first one relates to the new Spirit Bond.

- Spirit Bond. Granting 2% Health Regen to the hunter and pet when the pet is active as well as granting a 10% healing bonus done to yourself and your pet.

Will that 10% Bonus to healing affect the pet's own talent abilities. Notably that of Loyalty - 20% Chance on attack to grant +10% Happiness and heal for 5% of pet's total HP. And of the Lick Your Wounds talent, heals for 100% of the pet's total hp (a channeled ability). The first being a proc based ability the second being a triggered ability.

Secondly just how much worth is it to rely on procs, notably that from the talent Cobra Strikes - 60% Chance on a crit from Arcane, Steady and Kill Shot to grant your pet a 100% Crit chance on it's next two Special Attacks. Would I benefit putting those three points elsewhere, like Longevity for decreased CD on certain abilities or rely on a Proc chance.

Thanks for the time taken to read.

At the moment I don't believe Spirit Bond is actually increasing the amount of healing done to the pet (but the Tenacity talent Heart of the Rhino is).

Zurai · 09/17/08, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

The dummies can very well parry dodge, it's pretty painful for melee testing.

Even worse, they don't even have a backside. You, or rather your pets, get parried from everywhere around them, no matter where you stand.
Also, I think Rogues/Druids can't use Backstab/Shred either because of that, not 100% sure though.

They do dodge and parry, but they DO have a backside. I just did about 30 minutes total of Death Knight DPS testing and not a single parry. If you look closely at the model (or follow the hunter pets) you can tell which is the front and which is the back.

Hamurabi · 09/17/08, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Multi is practically dead. It is a weakness in the MM tree. 6 points for a boost of an ability on a 10 sec CD. You are much better off dropping it and go for Serpent and from then on just Steady (glyphed up of course) - Chimera. Lot more longevity for a slight loss in DPS. If you are suddenly finding yourself swimming in mana, then sure use Multi, just like BMs really should if they have enough mana at this time. But don't spec for it, it is far too expensive.

About the mana overall. We have very little information about consumption in raids with mana totems (mana tide if it is also raidwide will be awesome), replenishment and JoW (even nerfed it looks to be huge). Who knows, it might just be enough, and if it is then I would say MM is the tree that looks best due to the fact that it doesn't have wasted points in some manaregen ability. Of course the others could then spec out of it, not that Invigoration looks to be anything impressive.

Ah, I was afraid this was the consensus nowadays.

Without Multi, though, MM loses a significant chunk of its damage output, though. :\

Trickytrout · 09/17/08, 6:56 PM

Without Multi, though, MM loses a significant chunk of its damage output, though. :\

Have you seen chimera in action? It takes Multishots place and then some.

Ketari · 09/17/08, 7:42 PM

Originally Posted by Trickytrout

When it comes to just hunter DPS (no pet), MM will probably win. The one thing that will keep BM even competitive in Wrath is the pet DPS. We should really look into BM vs. MM pet damage to see what the gap between the two is, and whether or not BM pets damage is truly enough to overcome the gap between MM.

For example: x=MM hunter dps, a=MM pet DPS and y=BM hunter dps, b=BM pet dps;

if x>y and b>a, is x+a>y+b?

That's not what I'm seeing from my own and other's tests (see TKA Something). Now, the Thrill bug may have some bearing on this, but right now it looks very much like SV is pretty much the spec. Especially given how fantasically well explosive shot scales.

Looking at Kilraq's testing...

Time to OOM:

190.83s SV (steady spam)
165.13s SV (rotation)
106s MM (steady spam)
104.44s BM (steady spam)
68.98s MM (rotation)

(BM/rotation (i.e. serpent) forthcomming, but I think we can tell it'll be arround 80-90s)

Obellix · 09/17/08, 8:58 PM

With the new Cobra Strikes Talent, i was wondering if anyone had given thought on giving up another point in Frenzy? would it still be enough to keep FI up all the time given lets say 30%+ crit at lvl 80 in a raid?

Something similar to this spec

KraxisSingular · 09/18/08, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Hamurabi

Ah, I was afraid this was the consensus nowadays.

Without Multi, though, MM loses a significant chunk of its damage output, though. :\

Unlikely... The reason Multi was specced in the first place was because the other talents were at best good fillers. Now there is a lot of outright good talents to use those 6 points on. You aren't wasting DPS. You are moving the points to where they will do more damage. Consequently you will not have to use the manahog that is Multishot to gain very good DPS.

Ultimately not using Multi on CD will mean slightly less DPS (Multishot will remain somewhat better than Steady shot to shot), so you should still use it when the mana allows. But since you aren't specced for it there is no "have to use because I have spent so many points on it" situation. You can safely disregard it.
That was the problem previously. You specced for it because it was 'best', but at the same time you were forced to always try and use it because you had spent 6 points on it, a huge amount of your talent budget. To not use it would be like wasting those points. That is something you are free of now. Consider yourself liberated from the thralldom that was Multi-spec.

But while not using Multi will ultimately be slightly lower DPS, going Multi-spec will hurt a whole lot more because of the lost talents and the forced nature of Multishot itself. In any case Multi will still be 22% buffed from the general talents, and that is no small thing.

Cilithan · 09/18/08, 3:00 AM

New Talentbuild. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunter

Only checked SV Hunter, Lock and Load has been buffed to now give 2 free Arc/ES per procc. ES has been nerfed to 20% AP+273 x 3 dots. Survival Instincts now boosts critpercent of SV's mayor shots by 4%.

A build like this any good? http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

PSGarak · 09/18/08, 3:02 AM

List of changes:

Originally Posted by MMO-Champion

Skills

Aspect of the Viper mana regeneration buffed. Each ranged attack regenerates a percentage of maximum mana equal to twice your base ranged weapon speed. (Previously only regened your base ranged weapon speed)

Marksmanship
Skills

Steady Shot mana cost increased from 4% of base mana to 5%, damage reduced. (Check Skill List for Details)
Kill Shot no longer knocks you down. Damage Increased to 205% weapon damage plus [ 40% of RAP + 820 ] (Old - 200% weapon damage plus [ 30% of RAP + 400 ]). Can only be used on targets under 20% health. (Check Skill List for Details)
Kill Shot (Rank 2) 205% weapon damage plus [ 40% of RAP + 1000 ] and (Rank 3) 205% weapon damage plus [ 40% of RAP + 1200 ] have been added to the game.
Tranquiliziing Shot attempts to remove 1 Enrage and 1 Magic effect from an enemy target. (Previously removed 1 frenzy effect as well)

Talents

Wild Quiver (Tier 9) now gives you a 4/7/10% chance to shoot an additional shot when doing damage with your auto shot, dealing 50% Nature damage. Wild Quiver consumes no ammo. (Previously 60% nature damage)
Master Marksman (Tier 8 ) changed to increase your critical strike chance by 1/2/3/4/5%, and increases your total ranged haste by 1/2/3/4/5%. (Previously increased ranged AP by 2/4/6/8/10%)
Combat Experience (Tier 6) Increases your total Agility and Intellect by 2/4%. (Previously 3/6%)
Mortal Shots (Tier 2) now only affects ranged abilities.

Survival
Skills

Misdirection cooldown reduced to 30 sec. (Previously 2 mins)
Freezing Trap now has a chance to break on damage. (Previously broke 100% of the time on damage)
*New Skill* Freezing Arrow (Level 80) - Fire a freezing arrow that places a Freezing Trap at the target location, freezing the first enemy that approaches, preventing all action for up to 20 sec. Any damage caused will break the ice. Trap will exist for . Only one trap can be active at a time. (3% of base mana, 40 yd range, Instant cast, 30 sec cooldown)

Talents

Explosive shot (Tier 11) damage reduced. (Check Skill List for Details)
Hunting Party (Tier 10) mana regen reduced to 0.25% of max mana. (Previously 0.5%)
Sniper Training now increases the critical strike chance of your Kill Shot ability by 15%. (Old - No health requirement)
Surefooted (Tier 4) reduces movement impairing effect durations by 10/20/30% (Previously 16/25/50%)
Lock and Load (Tier 4) now affects your next 2 Arcane or Explosive shots. (Previously 1)
Trap Mastery is now implemented.

Survival Instincts (Tier 2) changed to - Reduces all damage taken by 2/4% and increases the critical strike chance of your Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, and Explosive Shot by 2/4%. (Previously reduced all damage taken by 2/4% and increased ap by 2/4%)

Just FYI, everyone's replenishment got cut in half and everyone's snare reduction got nerfed from 50% to 30%. So, how about that Freezing Trap Shot, eh?

Chul · 09/18/08, 3:08 AM

Pet ability changes too:

* Boar's Speed: Now increases all movement speed instead of just outdoor.
* Demoralizing Screech: Now lasts 10 seconds (up from 4).
* Furious Howl: Now increases both ranged and melee attack power. Now effects the raid. Range increased to 45 yards (up from 40).
* Thunderstomp: Now costs 25 Focus.
* Fire Breath: Now does base fire damage as well as a fire DoT.
* Warp: Now gives the pet a 50% chance to avoid the next 3 melee attacks (instead of just the next attack).
* Poison Spit: Now also reduces the target's casting speed by 50% for 8 sec.
* Ravage: Cooldown removed.
* Lick Your Wounds: Now your pet heals itself for 100% of its total health over 5 sec (down from 10 sec) while channeling.
* Taunt: Cooldown removed.
* Roar of Sacrifice reworked: Now your pet absorbs damage from a party or raid member, transfering 30% damage taken to the pet. (Previously: Your pet absorbs damage from the friendly target up to a maximum of 50% of the pet's total health. Lasts 12 sec.)
* Bullheaded: Focus cost removed.
* Roar of Recovery: Now your pet's inspiring roar restores 30% (up from 20%) of your total mana over 9 sec (up from 8 sec).
* Nether Shock: Cooldown removed.
* Froststorm Breath: Damage ranges added to tooltips.
* Heart of the Phoenix: Reworded for clarity. Now "When your pet dies, it will miraculously return to life with full health."
* Spider's Bite: Now increases the critical strike chance of your pet by 3/6/9% (instead of the critical strike damage bonus of your pet by 10/20/30%).
* Rake (New Cat Family Ability): (6 Ranks @ level 1/16/32/48/64/80) Rake the target for 4 to 6/8 to 10/11 to 15/18 to 24/28 to 38/59 to 83 bleed damage and an additional 1/2 to 4/3 to 6/6 to 8/10 to 12/21 to 27 damage over 9 sec.
* Feeding Frenzy: 2 ranks added for 6 and 12%.

Ravage: Cooldown removed - So we get a 2s stun every 1.5s? Surely something else has changed too.
EDIT: Actually, Wowhead is reporting the cooldown got reduced from 1m to 40s rather than removed.

Tyranna · 09/18/08, 3:11 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Just FYI, everyone's replenishment got cut in half and everyone's snare reduction got nerfed from 50% to 30%. So, how about that Freezing Trap Shot, eh?

I can honestly say, what the fuck? I didn't see this coming. Can someone in beta test the mechanics for this? I don't want to make any assumptions, but I think it's a safe bet that it shares the same cooldown as all traps. But depending on the mechanics, it might not be horrible, even with the arming delay of traps.

Melkunie · 09/18/08, 3:57 AM

Steady Shot mana cost increased from 4% of base mana to 5%, damage reduced. (Check Skill List for Details)

Third steady shot nerf and explosive shot nerf. But survival did gained freezing arrow. PVP vs PVE tradeoff sadly.

Steelfleece · 09/18/08, 3:58 AM

It seems Mortal Shots now reads "Ranged Abilities" as far as increasing critical strike damage.

I guess this would mean it no longer applies to Auto Shot? If so, doesn't that directly contradict Blizzard stacking our gear with Haste?

Chul · 09/18/08, 4:10 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

It seems Mortal Shots now reads "Ranged Abilities" as far as increasing critical strike damage.

I guess this would mean it no longer applies to Auto Shot? If so, doesn't that directly contradict Blizzard stacking our gear with Haste?

Auto Shoot isn't a ranged ability? We can drag it to our bars...

I just think they reworded the talent and beta hunters just want something to whinge about due to the other changes.