Well, that discounts the problem that according to Wowhead, the spirit beast is EXOTIC.
Well, that's just not very optimal is it? 10 sec DoT on a 7 sec CD... Same with Rake btw. Of course it wouldn't be an issue with player abilities. Stuff lik Flame Shock work nicely with longer DoTs than CD, but that is because it is one of our own abilities we have to focus on anyway.
Could it possibly be linked with a sort of /castsequence to Steadyshot so it isn't applied until 10.5 seconds after the first?
Well, that's just not very optimal is it? 10 sec DoT on a 7 sec CD... Same with Rake btw. Of course it wouldn't be an issue with player abilities. Stuff lik Flame Shock work nicely with longer DoTs than CD, but that is because it is one of our own abilities we have to focus on anyway.
Could it possibly be linked with a sort of /castsequence to Steadyshot so it isn't applied until 10.5 seconds after the first?
Well, you can get to 51 BM without taking Longevity if you so choose.
Indeed, this new ability is really just something they've taken from an old idea (throwing traps), and it doesn't feel like something new and refreshing from WotLK. I hope they rethink this.
To me, it seems more of a hassle, especially if it is on the same cooldown as traps and if the trap has an activation time of 2 seconds.
That is a rather funny comment given how BM Hunter with BM the talent are basically funneled into using Devilsaurs since that is what there is. Perhaps it means a nerf to Devilsaurs so we can finally all agree that the talent is just a glorified Minor Glyph? That might in fact further the cause of BM a little... one can hope.
It seems to me like a lofty but ultimately impossible goal if they continue to go about it they way they are now.
The main issue being that they're giving pets (read: wolf) non-dps abilities that do not stack with (very) common raid buffs, and then give other pets (raptors, devilsaurs) dps abilities that have potential for high damage output.
How exactly do they expect a pet like a Warp Stalker to come close to the DPS of something like a Devilsaur? Even other Ferocity tree pets won't be close (tallstriders).
Wolves will never see raid use because the chance of no paladin or warrior being in a 25, or even 10-man raid is nihil. They're digging these animals shallow graves in the pet cemetary and the way they talk about it makes it look like they don't even realize it.
My thought on the devilsaur at the moment is this: I think it's fine because of the exotics, the devilsaur seems to be the only one designed for pure PvE DPS purposes. Since it is exotic, it should be more powerful than normal pets (it takes a 51 point talent to obtain).
All other exotics seem to be aimed at PvP/Utility.
This is not counting the Spirit Beast since I don't know what its deal is at the moment. If it is intended to compete with the devilsaur for the PvE DPS role I don't think it can do that.
Unfortunately it goes against the stated One Pet That Everybody Brings aversion that Ghostcrawler mentioned. Should BM hunters be restricted to using Devilsaurs for DPS weather they like it or not?
A better version (compared to now, anyway) of the talent Beast Mastery would be, as has been mentioned previously, making it similar to Ravenous Dead. That way the extra power comes from increased pet scaling, and not the pet family. Devilsaurs should be tamed because they're freakin Devilsaurs and they're goddamn awesome, not because they have Monstrous Bite and it's the best DPS ability for pets. At least, that's what Blizzard claims to want. They said the extra power that comes from BM as a 51 point talent is supposed to be from the 4 extra pet skill points, but I think we all agree that's not how it currently is.
I seem to recall them specifically saying that the two abilities were to help combat LoS problems, and neither Master's Call or Deterrence come close, especially after being nerfed.
Well yes, but I suspect strongly that's a case of left hand, right hand.
Also, yes, I agree that increasing pet scaling would be deacent for 51BM, and let exotics not be any more inherently powerful. Of course, the values for DK pet scaling also look er... rather good.
KraxisSingular - And there are some specs who don't use much of their set gear in TBC because it's considerably inferior to differently-statted non-set gear. IMO Set gear should be at least a good option.
The wolf's special ability is intended to not stack and last I checked, it did not.
We'd like to get all 128 pet families as close to each other as we can in terms of dps output. Feedback on this is appreciated. Failing that, we want to avoid the One Pet That Everybody Brings. Btw, TotT isn't MD. It is less effective at pulling, but that doesn't mean it can't be used that way. It just requires the target to run to the position needed after the application. It will still be useful in cornerpulls, and it will be great in 5-mans. MD is practically wasted after pull and it has no damage increaser. They aren't the same, but then again Stealth and Camo was far from the same either.
That was indeed hypocritical by GC, and I lost a little of the respect I have for her. At the very least she could have worded it differently and said "well we didn't think it was very Hunteristic to stealth about and besides it turned out to be OP combined with X ability." People would have ranted anyway, but there wouldn't have been this feeling of being robbed of classdefining aspects and get nothing in return.
That is a rather funny comment given how BM Hunter with BM the talent are basically funneled into using Devilsaurs since that is what there is. Perhaps it means a nerf to Devilsaurs so we can finally all agree that the talent is just a glorified Minor Glyph? That might in fact further the cause of BM a little... one can hope.
I'm assuming that this is directed to me and I am aware that TotT =/= MD. My comment concerning TotT was in context of GC's comment that they didn't want to give hunters a rogue-like ability b/c both hunters and rogues would feel "cruddy" or something like that. I didn't make that last part clear in my original post but we're on the same page.
The nerf to AutoShot (MS not applying Crit bonus), the nerf to SS, the nerf to wolves FH, crappy AotV. lousy set bonuses...I guess I should have just stayed off of the forums today. I like to believe that saner heads will prevail in the end but this last patch wasn't what I was looking for in terms of...anything, ok, some of the pet changes are nice but the one pet change I was really looking forward to appears to be worthless in raids. I'll wait for feedback from testers and hopefully they will be able to provide useful feedback on the LK hunter forums and help influence the devs decision making process.
I just want to comment on that. With a 2.8 speed bow, I get 5.6% of my mana back per ranged attack. In practice on target dummies, with a survival build, I am full mana in ~17 seconds real time (and I haven't optimized my mana recovery rotation either.) I run out of mana on the dummies going all out in about 4 minutes. Thus, AotV costs me a grand total of less than 17*.5/240 < 4% of my dps. Seems quite acceptable to me, especially as this is an upper bound -- any raid mana buffs and I may never need to use AotV at all.
Sure, you now have to drink when out of combat rather than using AotV. And the PvP players probably have their own issues with it as it is now. But AotV is not crap at all for survival builds, right now.
Oww, loads of stuff to respond to... Get to work it seems!
Originally Posted by Steelfleece
Well, you can get to 51 BM without taking Longevity if you so choose.
Of course that is a possibility, but the loss of the CD reduction on Rabid, BW etc, I just don't think the payoff would be worth it. It is at the very least an illthought ability when our talents end up making it less effective in the long run. Of course that depends on several factors such as if the damage gained earlier by applying the Arcane stuff sooner will make up for the lost ticks and lost focusdump.
Just thought about the macro stuff, it won't work. The ability will come in conflict with the focusdump on auto... That could mean it won't fire at all.
Starwind, no it wasn't directed at you per se. It was more of a general comment. But it is always good to clarify things.
Ketari, yeah the deep EW specs going for the most powerful EW would generally not gear for set items, a number of items were good, a lot were not. But if you picked them up anyway they were not bad. They didn't feel wrong at a base level. And the bonusses were generally pretty good (save T4 of course). There is a difference between optimal and just good. Set gear should always be good for the level, preferably desireable. Now it looks to be rather crummy. Though GC has cryptically said the 2-set bonus was intended for the old KC (under the effect of KC?) which would likely have been even less overwhelming. In any case it will see a change, hopefully for something good. Or maybe not, a good bonus would have people torn between a crappy set with bonusses and good gear with none. Easier to just make it clear what is bad and what is not.
Regarding the Devilsaur and it's DPS GC once more threw us a bone, or a knife depending on your perception:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
Monstrous Bite was given a longer cooldown and IIRC the damage buff was slightly lowered. We'll look at all the pets to try and get them close.
Devilsaurs are apparently too good at this time still (the buff was lowered to 9% from 15). Then I have to ask, what is the point of BM the talent, it is already lackluster, the 4 points are a joke (this was nerfed from 5 points because?), this will just confirm the notion that BM stops two tiers lower. Which at this time might be good as people will once again have an easier time making out the trash from the gold. I heard people claiming the Devilsaur is only 50 DPS ahead of the Raptor, so it is already very close. Now the question is just where to find the gold. Tbh, I think Exotic pets should just be a Minor Glyph, no better, no worse... We need a skin glyph and since we can't shapeshift our pets is a logical place to put it.
It is most unfortunate with the Wolf... I love their new looks and I was looking for an excuse to bring it to raids. That's gone though. This streamlining of making all pets equal is making more pets useless. They more they try, the more potential raiding pets they remove. It's strange really, like those fingerclamps of wicker, where the more you pull the tighter it will close on the finger, making it practically impossible to pull off directly, you have to go back before you can go ahead. This might require a similar solution.
I don't know, colouring your autoshots like the old PvP frost amo might be nice.
Also, I don't mean SV Hunters are such - I'm told that some specs such as Enhance (I think..) are not interested in much of their set gear as it stands.
Cranch - plus the second shifting in and out of Viper, which adds up. My problem is not the regen per-se (although the PvP-orientated players do have issues) but the fact that I find it as a mechanism pretty much totally un-fun and it heavily emhasises getting the slowest weapon possible.
I don't know, colouring your autoshots like the old PvP frost amo might be nice.
Also, I don't mean SV Hunters are such - I'm told that some specs such as Enhance (I think..) are not interested in much of their set gear as it stands.
We got three Minors... no reason the second couldn't be a colour shot.
Ahh... I see, since you mentioned spec I assumed within the Hunterclass. But now that you mention it the Enhancement sets are pretty lousy as it stands. Way way too much itemvalue on Int and Mp5, neither of which they need in any serious quantities. I would say their current sets are much similar to what we see wih our T7/7.5. The difference is just, they are one spec, we are a full class. They can potentially use the tokens for Resto or Ele if that is their desire (have actually done that on my Shammy alt with the T4 gloves). We have but two options, get the set or don't.
But yeah, they have it similar because their sets are less than equal to what they can otherwise get.
I just want to comment on that. With a 2.8 speed bow, I get 5.6% of my mana back per ranged attack. In practice on target dummies, with a survival build, I am full mana in ~17 seconds real time (and I haven't optimized my mana recovery rotation either.) I run out of mana on the dummies going all out in about 4 minutes. Thus, AotV costs me a grand total of less than 17*.5/240 < 4% of my dps. Seems quite acceptable to me, especially as this is an upper bound -- any raid mana buffs and I may never need to use AotV at all.
Sure, you now have to drink when out of combat rather than using AotV. And the PvP players probably have their own issues with it as it is now. But AotV is not crap at all for survival builds, right now.
A few earlier posts mentioned how lackluster Invigorate is for BM specs, and I don't think I need to mention RR again for MM specs. AotV is supposed to be the main source of mana return for all three specs. But performance wise, it's only really good enough for SV right now and that's in conjunction with HP and TotH.
I mentioned earlier here that the lack of parity in regards to mana return for our three specs leads to an odd quandary. If we're to rely on outside help (JoW, Mana Spring, etc.), Invigorate and TotH become redundant. However, if the outside help is taken into account (it might be with the recent nerf to HP), then MM is in serious trouble mana wise.
Well, with Mortal Shots no longer affecting Auto Shot, that means we don't need to put that many points in it anymore. At 33.33% crit, it gave the hunter a 5% damage increase. Now, it'll end up being ~2.5% (give or take since specials will be more damage than auto, but some specials can't crit - like serpent). These points could be spent elsewhere.
Originally Posted by Skillstep
Why is it that other classes feel whole and simple and fluid yet hunter feels like directing a symphony as a paraplegic midget with tourettes?
In a related concern, every single pet family skill that does pure DPS (i.e. no other benefits) does less or equal damage to Bite/Claw/Smack. Even with scaling. From a DPS-perspective there's no point in using them.
I surprised this hasn't been talked about more. I'd suggest that the numbers are placeholds, but they've already done at least once pass where they've added new ranks, and reduced the damage of bite/claw/smack.
Do you think the answer is to reduce bite/claw/smack, or to increase the other abilities?
Originally Posted by Skillstep
Why is it that other classes feel whole and simple and fluid yet hunter feels like directing a symphony as a paraplegic midget with tourettes?
Well, with Mortal Shots no longer affecting Auto Shot, that means we don't need to put that many points in it anymore. At 33.33% crit, it gave the hunter a 5% damage increase. Now, it'll end up being ~2.5% (give or take since specials will be more damage than auto, but some specials can't crit - like serpent). These points could be spent elsewhere.
In theory, yeah I guess that's one way to free up points. But Mortal Shots is in the second tier. Assuming both Improved Concussive Shot and Focused Aim are PvP talents that wouldn't be taken by a PvE raiding build, you don't have many choices to get to the fourth tier. 5/5 Lethal Shots and 3/3 Careful Aim are going to be the staples of just about every build. So to get to the third tier, you need at least 2 points in Mortal Shots or you can put them into Improved Hunter's Mark. The highest rank of Hunter's Mark is level 76 for 300 RAP. With 3/3 IHM, that's a static 90 extra RAP. So, going back to the build, you've got 3/3 CA and 2/3 IHM and you're in the third tier. Now, you take 2/2 Rapid Killing and the rest gets fuzzy. You need to spend 3 more points to get to the fourth tier. You can dump one more point into IHM, but that leaves 2 points with nowhere to go. Imp. Arcane is useless for a MM build as you'll be replacing Arcane with Chimera. GftT is questionable as your pet isn't that beefy as MM. You'll also won't have access to Aimed Shot as Mortal Shots isn't maxxed.
I'm really bad at math and I don't know all the damage formulas so I'm not going to say whether 3/3 IHM is a bigger gain than sinking those points into MS, but my gut tells me it isn't and neither is putting those points into GftT. So it looks to me like not putting those points into MS won't do much at all to free up points.
*edit* Thinking about this a little more, what you say might actually apply to BM as they're the most likely spec to make use out of Improved Arcane Shot. But I don't think it changes anything for MM or SV specs.
I just want to comment on that. With a 2.8 speed bow, I get 5.6% of my mana back per ranged attack. In practice on target dummies, with a survival build, I am full mana in ~17 seconds real time (and I haven't optimized my mana recovery rotation either.) I run out of mana on the dummies going all out in about 4 minutes. Thus, AotV costs me a grand total of less than 17*.5/240 < 4% of my dps. Seems quite acceptable to me, especially as this is an upper bound -- any raid mana buffs and I may never need to use AotV at all.
Sure, you now have to drink when out of combat rather than using AotV. And the PvP players probably have their own issues with it as it is now. But AotV is not crap at all for survival builds, right now.
There I go being ambiguous again. I should have qualified my comment regarding AotV in terms of pvp. Not having a passive regen element will be trouble for arena hunters, especially since the aspect doesn't regen on melee hits. In regards to pve it is definitely better than the version from the last patch.
Cranch, what was rotation that you were using and what is the size of the mana pool you are refilling? From an earlier post another hunter, Kilraq, posted numbers for a SV rotation and was oom in just over 3 mins. I believe he was using a SerpSting, SS, ES rotation. Also, I was also under the impression that TotH was bugged in that it gives back mana for ticks of ES. Thanks in advance for responding.
Oww, loads of stuff to respond to... Get to work it seems!
Regarding the Devilsaur and it's DPS GC once more threw us a bone, or a knife depending on your perception:
I believe GC was referring to the change already made to devilsaurs. Before, Monstrous Bite was a 5% stacking buff with a 10 second cooldown. At least that's what I'm hoping.
If people keep whining about devilsaurs being above all the other pets, they might get nerfed, unfortunately. And then PvE DPS hunters won't have any reason to take the 51 BM talent. A more logical approach would be to look to strengthen the Spirit Beast, the only other exotic pet that looks to be designed for PvE DPS, but if all that is done is crying about the devilsaur I don't think that will happen.
Otherwise, yes, make exotic pets a minor glyph (giving exotic pets the same abilities as similar normal pets) and change the 51 BM talent to be something that improves pet scaling drastically, like the Death Knight talent for ghouls.
Originally Posted by Tyranna
GftT is questionable as your pet isn't that beefy as MM.
Personally, I think that since the pet is going to be an important part of our DPS regardless of spec, that all specs should aim to get Go for the Throat.
In particular, Marked for Death encourages heavy use of pet specials. To a lesser extent, even Hunter vs. Wild aids our pets.
Just chiming in here because a whole heap of hunters here and in the beta forums have been nitpicking on dev's assurance that there won't be 'One Pet' syndrome for PvE hunters.
Are hunters really going to pick a different pet other than the most optimal choice in PvE? Whatever the devs do, there will always be a pet that will be deemed the best dps-wise and 80% of the serious hunters doing PvE would pick those choices, the other 20% picking utility pets. This is the whole point we have min/max-ing, we collectively agree on the best pet to bring to encounters.
The only alternative is to homogenize pets and I already think the devs have done too much to take that route and is far more boring option to me.
Just chiming in here because a whole heap of hunters here and in the beta forums have been nitpicking on dev's assurance that there won't be 'One Pet' syndrome for PvE hunters.
Are hunters really going to pick a different pet other than the most optimal choice in PvE? Whatever the devs do, there will always be a pet that will be deemed the best dps-wise and 80% of the serious hunters doing PvE would pick those choices, the other 20% picking utility pets. This is the whole point we have min/max-ing, we collectively agree on the best pet to bring to encounters.
The only alternative is to homogenize pets and I already think the devs have done too much to take that route and is far more boring option to me.
I think the point is the devs want pets to be close enough to each other that there is some slush as far as what the optimal pet is. You know, the whole different but equal bit. Even in BC, it wasn't just one pet. Raptors, cats, and ravagers were close enough that I even raided with a raptor for a while just because it was more aesthetically pleasing to me than my fugly ravager. There's never going to be complete 100% balance between all pets. There's just too many variables for that ever to be the case. However, the devs want to get as close to that impossible number as possible. This is just the next step closer. Instead of 3 top end pets that every raiding hunter uses, there might be 5 or 10 when all the dust settles. Admittedly, that's maybe a third of the total number of pet families at best, but it's still closer than 3.
It's also worth mentioning that raiding isn't everything. In BC, you were questioned if you used anything but a scorpid for Arenas. I expect to see much, much more variety in pet selection for that come WotLK.
Related question GC, hunters have noticed pet crit % has gone up along with the improved stamina conversion rates this patch. Is this due to this change or is it an intentional pet improvement? Thought I should ask before people go on a tear next patch if it reverts unexpectedly.
And for those asking, for hunter pets I think the crit rate went up something like 8.5% (not tested myself, just from what I've read).
GC's response:
Hunter crit should not have changed. We changed it for warriors and most mobs just happen to be warriors. But we'll look into it.
Makes sense considering pets are "warriors" for all intents and purposes buff-wise.
Of course that is a possibility, but the loss of the CD reduction on Rabid, BW etc
Are there any burst trinkets with different cooldowns than 2min in WotLK, then? Today on live you always line up BW with a burst trinket to get maximum effect. If you use BW more often so it gets out of sync with the trinket cooldown, will that really be much of a dps increase?
Are there any burst trinkets with different cooldowns than 2min in WotLK, then? Today on live you always line up BW with a burst trinket to get maximum effect. If you use BW more often so it gets out of sync with the trinket cooldown, will that really be much of a dps increase?
With Longevity and the BW Glyph (which you SHOULD use as BM) the BW cooldown is reduced to ~ 63 sec. That shoudn't be to hard to synchronize with other 2/3 min CDs. Personally I think using BW/TBW twice as often is where a lot of BMs power will come from.
With Longevity and the BW Glyph (which you SHOULD use as BM) the BW cooldown is reduced to ~ 63 sec. That shoudn't be to hard to synchronize with other 2/3 min CDs. Personally I think using BW/TBW twice as often is where a lot of BMs power will come from.
Does the Glyph work in this order then? I thought it was the other way around and lead to a 70s CD on BW.
09/18/08, 5:53 PM
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