Am I missing something, or is ranged weapon speed irrelevant now that Auto and Steady shots no longer interfere with each other?
Originally Posted by Osse
Global cooldown still persists.
What does the GCD have to do with this? Auto shots aren't related to the GCD.
It would seem that the faster, the better, especially for SV specs. Shooting faster procs more on-hit and on-crit abilities, such as GFTT, hunting party, master tactician, cobra strikes, etc. However, weapon base DPS will still be much more important than speed, so the faster=better idea probably only applies to weapons with identical or very similar DPS.
Kill Shot also seems to be affected by weapon damage.
EDIT: Way too slow.
Once Improved Tracking is working, could someone test if the +damage is added to targets you track using Hunter's Mark? E.g. no tracking active, Hunter's Mark on target.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Kill Shot also seems to be affected by weapon damage.
EDIT: Way too slow.
Once Improved Tracking is working, could someone test if the +damage is added to targets you track using Hunter's Mark? E.g. no tracking active, Hunter's Mark on target.
I wouldn't write off Marks so fast with the new Autoshot and Steady Shot changes. The only thing that really matters with haste now is getting Steady down to 1.5s from 2.0 so that you can perfectly ride the GCD. Marks shouldn't be anymore Mana intensive than steady is, no? They'd pretty much be the same "rotation" - Steady shots until 20%, then Throw in Kill Shots every time they refresh - the exception being that Marks also can throw in Arcanes when Imp Steady procs above 20%. Marks also gets Efficiency while a heavy BM spec won't. The trade off is that BM gets Invigoration which is pretty big sure, but with raid wide totems assuring you have Mana Spring and Mana Tide and Paladin talents encouraging to Judge to get some nice self effects Wisdom should be up constantly as well and that allieviates a lot of mana concerns.
With Autoshot not being interrupted anymore I think haste loses a ton of value outside of getting that perfect steady cast time.
Alright, well I made a bad assumption that generic haste would affect the generic GCD. However, I still think this is largely true. Going from 2.0 to 1.5 still takes 33% haste...does the quiver count towards that? If not, you might actually have to work at it. But haste still will have a tremendous impact on autoshot damage. Literally 1% haste is 1% increase. And if you want to bring mana into the equation, and use Efficiency as a basis for anything, I'm going to laugh. Invigoration is SO much better than Efficiency. Even if they put an internal cooldown on it, which I assume they'll have to, BM will still have much better net mana consumption...and as you said, with raidwide totems and such, can you really call this an advantage for marks? If anything, the argument should be that it's not an advantage for BM and merely neutral.
Marks will hit harder, BM will chew things to pieces with their pet. That may very well balance out. It's the SS haste for the hunter that pushes BM over the top. I'm not confident that the new marks talents have done anything to change that.
<reads follow-up posts>
OK, I wasn't aware of the windfury changes. If all shaman totems are raidwide, I guess it's a given we'll have this then.
That does change my argument a bit...when I said you'd need a "major nerf to SS," in a roundabout sort of way, I think this qualifies. It certainly takes it down from being a straight 20% gain.
Originally Posted by intermission
Only upside to a slow weapon is higher multi and aimed, unless I'm missing something.
Multi is normalized to 2.8, unless something changed that I'm not aware of. Even if Kill Shot does use weapon damage, though, I think faster weapons are still going to be superior...I hope we're getting bigger quivers. The only way I would not find a faster weapon more favorable is if it were like the 4/5 vs 5/5 Frenzy argument -- the effect is small enough that you can maybe find greater effect elsewhere.
Thing is, if you want to argue along those lines, marks may have more attack power and individual shots do more, but beast mastery's got 20% more of them. The marks shots aren't THAT much more powerful. Even the new talents don't really close the gap because although the new talents in BM don't really help the hunter, they do help the pet deal damage, and the rearrangements of marks and surv will benefit the BM hunter more greatly. If you want damage to be balanced between the two trees, you have to put a major nerf on Serpent's Swiftness because the +20% (hunter and pet) very nearly manhandles the entire marks tree by itself.
So marksmanship is not only NOT the hardest hitting spec over time, but it also has no mana return component. There's also no remarkable utility that makes you say "wow I gotta have that" unless Chimera Shot with Scorpid ends up being amazing. All other things equal, I'm not sure why a raid would prefer a marks hunter over a BM hunter for any reason at all....that's not to say nobody should ever spec marks. Some people just like it better, and I'm not going to rain on their parade. But it's not mathematically superior.
Survival probably does less damage than either, but it makes up for it by providing better support skills like Expose Weakness and Hunting Party.
Right, but that's mostly the agreed sentiment for the current situation with TBC; Marks is lackluster to BM and to exceptional SV hunters. The new stuff for BM is mostly utility. It's mana regen, supporting the mana regen, shortening CDs on a few specials, and then Aspect Mastery & Beast Mastery which are still up in the air. These additions fluff support for BM, while the rework of the lower SV and MK trees gives BM better access to improve damage output. Just like you said, SS *is* the BM tree's monster talent.
So we take a look at the new Marks talents. 5% damage bonus (with 10% more crit damage on listed shots), 6% armor penetration (which is 396 ArP on most bosses atm, nothing to sniff at), free shots from wild quiver, and then the still-discussed Rapid Recuperation and Imp. Steady Shot. The new stuff increases damage output, except for the latter-mentioned skills which provide a combination of periodic damage increase at lower mana cost, and less mana used during rapidfire. To me, it seems they're trying to re-correct the power for Marks and help to put it closer to BM so it will be playable spec. I see it like delivering more quality to attacks vs. the quantity set forth by BM. I'd like to see more marks hunters and diversity. It's a shame that they skewed the power from Marks to BM like they did.. but I've always been SV spec so it didn't concern me terribly much.
The new SV talents are a mix of both. I can't disagree, because I put out some pretty obnoxious damage that keeps up very well with my BM hunters (even without my windserpent being alive for that additional net damage). PV is a subtle damage boost if chosen to incorporate serpent sting 4 times a minute. Sniper Training is a subtle damage boost. PNE is a subtle global/situational damage boost (I have a pretty good crit rate already, but I can see use in a raid situation with frost trap and pulling trash mobs.. especially if they're being AoE tanked&killed). Even with TotH I'll still go OOM in raids unless I also have Wis on me, judged on the target, mageblood, and totem... OR just wisdom, mageblood, and being grouped with an spriest. Hunting Party is just a utility ability to benefit anyone, regardless of which step-child group the SV hunter gets pushed to (with 100% uptime and an 8k mana pool, it turns into 1200 mana/min, which is four R3 Steady Shots). It helps to sustain. The new SV stuff is a healthy mix.
I hope that haste isn't going to allow us a nonstop steady-spam, riding the GCD. Despite the fact that steady is the most efficient mana-using shot, it would be boring (still) to mash one button. Currently, I use the /cast /cast macro but hand-weave in arcane/multi depending on my attack speed, so I actually get to pay attention and press different stuff. I would like to think that we would be encouraged to fire off an instant attack immediately after a steady for max DPS. Kill shot, explosive shot, and arcane shot are all on a 6-second CD. The majority of hunters will have kill and arcane (and serpent) to toy with, and sure it sucks down more mana but there's always that choice depending on mana pool and net regen (like being non-BM and choosing when to KC or not).
Multi is normalized to 2.8, unless something changed that I'm not aware of. Even if Kill Shot does use weapon damage, though, I think faster weapons are still going to be superior...I hope we're getting bigger quivers. The only way I would not find a faster weapon more favorable is if it were like the 4/5 vs 5/5 Frenzy argument -- the effect is small enough that you can maybe find greater effect elsewhere.
The attack power contribution to Multi-Shot is normalized to a 2.8 speed weapon.
Raw weapon damage (as listed on the weapon) and ammo damage contribution are higher for a slower weapon when comparing to weapons of identical DPS, but differing weapon speeds.
Apparently it crits for 1.5x damage (Source) and as such I imagine is considered a spell . Does it mean it is considered a spell for crit% and proc effects instead of a shot?
We know it can't crit ToTH or HP, but does it trigger EW when it crits?
Also, what is the damage for rank 2 and rank 3? (I assume rank 1 is for lvl60+, and we still need to find out the lvl 70+ and 80 ranks).
I think people are somewhat over estimating the 2% mana returns from BM cause even at a 14k mana pool that is just 280 mana per proc which is 1 r3 steady shot.
Trogdor I dont think we will be spamming just steady think it will likely be a steady, steady, steady, Kill shot rotation as Kill Shot Arcane and explosive all supposedly share a CD and kill shot even before 20% does more dmg for less mana then the new max rank of arcane.
I think people are somewhat over estimating the 2% mana returns from BM cause even at a 14k mana pool that is just 280 mana per proc which is 1 r3 steady shot.
Trogdor I dont think we will be spamming just steady think it will likely be a steady, steady, steady, Kill shot rotation as Kill Shot Arcane and explosive all supposedly share a CD and kill shot even before 20% does more dmg for less mana then the new max rank of arcane.
I think that, provided it has no internal cooldown and that your own crit is high enough to give your pet infinite focus (via GftT), the sheer speed of mana recovery will make this talent worthwhile.
I agree that it will still be a solid talent just don't think it is gonna be as far ahead of a MM with his cheaper shots as everyone seems to think. Also with JoW likely to be a lot more common and raid wide mana totems and such I don't think it will be as needed as it would be now.
I think people are somewhat over estimating the 2% mana returns from BM cause even at a 14k mana pool that is just 280 mana per proc which is 1 r3 steady shot.
3x 2% mana return from 60% of your crits. (with cobra reflexes)
If you have 25% crit and 8k mana, you'll have a 15% chance on a shot to return 480 mana.
Assuming 1 shot per second, that's an average of 15 procs per 100 seconds.
Returning 7.2k mana to you in 100 seconds, or 360Mp5.
Ofcourse some of it will get lost because you crit again before your pet has had 3 specials or because of noncrit streaks.
But this is still excluding the pet's own crits.
My math isnt very good though so this is quite simplified but I think Cheeky had it at giving him over 400 Mp5.
from TKAsomething:
Originally Posted by Cheeky
My preliminary model for Invigorate puts it at over 400 mp5 for a BM Hunter. I think we'll have a hard time spending 400 mp5, and Ret Pallies are no longer our best friends!
Dont know if that has changed yet, but I dont say no to that much mana.
I think people are somewhat over estimating the 2% mana returns from BM cause even at a 14k mana pool that is just 280 mana per proc which is 1 r3 steady shot.
Trogdor I dont think we will be spamming just steady think it will likely be a steady, steady, steady, Kill shot rotation as Kill Shot Arcane and explosive all supposedly share a CD and kill shot even before 20% does more dmg for less mana then the new max rank of arcane.
Yeah I threw arcane in there just because it's an instant like the rest. If those instant shots share the same timer, then I guess it's Steady Shot with Kill Shot, except for when Arcane Shot is wanted for high-armor/arcane-vuln. It almost seems that Explosive Shot might be the fire damage equivalent of Arcane Shot until we get more verification about how it's going to work. As it is currently worded, R1 ES is similar to the damage mechanics of Arcane Shot; little more boost from RAP but with little less added damage, BUT it hits twice. The AoE part of it is situational. If ES is actually doing impact damage plus two ticks of burn on top, that makes it that much more appealing.. but the wording doesn't indicate that, so we need more field reports. Either way, I'm going to assume that it's supposed to proc SV talents like Arcane Shot does and those bugs are in the works.
I don't think that Invigoration is going to provide unlimited mana to a BM hunter. I do think that it will help towards mana longevity in fights where the raid makeup may lack desired elements of mana regeneration. Death Knights are going to nudge their way in and mix things up.
R1 ES is similar to the damage mechanics of Arcane Shot; little more boost from RAP but with little less added damage, BUT it hits twice. The AoE part of it is situational. If ES is actually doing impact damage plus two ticks of burn on top, that makes it that much more appealing.. but the wording doesn't indicate that, so we need more field reports.
I think it has been confirmed earlier in this thread that it ticks on impact, after 1 sec and after 2 sec.
3x 2% mana return from 60% of your crits. (with cobra reflexes)
If you have 25% crit and 8k mana, you'll have a 15% chance on a shot to return 480 mana.
Assuming 1 shot per second, that's an average of 15 procs per 100 seconds.
Returning 7.2k mana to you in 100 seconds, or 360Mp5.
Ofcourse some of it will get lost because you crit again before your pet has had 3 specials or because of noncrit streaks.
But this is still excluding the pet's own crits.
My math isnt very good though so this is quite simplified but I think Cheeky had it at giving him over 400 Mp5.
from TKAsomething:
Dont know if that has changed yet, but I dont say no to that much mana.
Actually it is just off crits from your specials and your pets specials can't come faster then the GCD either so crit strings won't give as much boost but your pets own crits help too. It will be good but I can see myself running with both a MM and a BM spec if we are given to spec to switch between depending on pet friendliness of a fight. I don't expect the DPS difference to that big anymore since BM got longevity)not talking about the talent) but MM got a lot more DPS with some longevity talents of it's own and don't think MM will have the mana problems everyone is thinking it will with mana regen being a lot more common in group and raid set ups now.
Apparently it crits for 1.5x damage (Source) and as such I imagine is considered a spell . Does it mean it is considered a spell for crit% and proc effects instead of a shot?
We know it can't crit ToTH or HP, but does it trigger EW when it crits?
Also, what is the damage for rank 2 and rank 3? (I assume rank 1 is for lvl60+, and we still need to find out the lvl 70+ and 80 ranks).
There's only one rank of Explosive Shot currently. And I don't know about the spell stuff. It does not trigger EW, sadly.
And to another post - Yeah, Explosive and Arcane share the same cooldown. Kill Shot isn't on trainers yet, so I can't test that, but it could very well share it too being that it's also a 6s cd.
And I really don't think Mana is going to be a problem for Marks or BM with raid wide mana spring, mana tide, and JoW almost assuredly being up.
Correct - ES hits each target *three* times. It's kind of a monster.
I hesitate at calling it a "monster" just yet. Until we see more numbers showing it benefits from Hunter stats (RAP, crit etc) I will remain dubious as to its potential.
You fire an explosive charge into the target, dealing [RAP * 0.2 + 345]-[RAP * 0.2 + 415] Fire damage every second for 2 sec to all enemies within 5 yards of the target.
That makes it pretty clear that it benefits from RAP. Also even if it is a "spell" it'll still work off of our Crit Rating due to how Melee/Spell crit was rolled into one stat.
Seeing as how it hits 3x, that is quite clearly better than Arcane Shot: Rank 11- An instant shot that causes [RAP * 0.15 + 492] Arcane damage and dispels 1 Magic effect.
You fire an explosive charge into the target, dealing [RAP * 0.2 + 345]-[RAP * 0.2 + 415] Fire damage every second for 2 sec to all enemies within 5 yards of the target.
That makes it pretty clear that it benefits from RAP. Also even if it is a "spell" it'll still work off of our Crit Rating due to how Melee/Spell crit was rolled into one stat.
Seeing as how it hits 3x, that is quite clearly better than Arcane Shot: Rank 11- An instant shot that causes [RAP * 0.15 + 492] Arcane damage and dispels 1 Magic effect.
Both are 540 mana, btw.
I missed that part, my mistake. Previous experience has taught me that if something looks too good to be true, it probably is.
Sean: Where are you testing different specs and mechanics? Dr. Boom? Before IRL got him, I had a hunter who was a MK-SV hybrid. He claimed his damage was fantastic (he never had a chance to show it in raids, so I couldn't view WWS quantifications), even though it was more or less personal damage done differently. With additional talent points, hybrid specs could mix it up a bit and *possibly* have interesting and effective combinations. If you get a chance, think you can give these a go and feel it out? If I had beta access (I think they're still sending out keys slowly?), I'd be tweaking around all day testing stuff.
Here's a fun game; make a BM-SV Hybrid build or a BM-SV-MK (LOL) build that could actually work (where hybrid means a near-even expenditure of points in the trees). I tried for about 3 mins before I felt it was too silly (who knows, I might try again later hah).
I don't think either of the two builds I posted would be seriously good compared to a deep tree, but who knows, might not be completely terrible either. We won't know until someone experiments.
I've been using Boom for certain things, haven't really done any damage logging though - not really interested in super number crunching dps logs atm, just working out mechanics and what does what.
Why are some of you saying that Potent Venom looks powerful? It's essentially 1% damage per point, like Ranged Weapon Specialization, but requires changing 10% of your shots to serpent sting, which seems to still be weak. There's no room in raiding specs for Imp Stings, and potent venom also requires a wasted point in Wyvern Sting. I'd think 4 points of the new Master Tactician would definately be better than picking up Potent Venom.
What does the GCD have to do with this? Auto shots aren't related to the GCD.
It would seem that the faster, the better, especially for SV specs. Shooting faster procs more on-hit and on-crit abilities, such as GFTT, hunting party, master tactician, cobra strikes, etc. However, weapon base DPS will still be much more important than speed, so the faster=better idea probably only applies to weapons with identical or very similar DPS.
Well, timing was previously always done to minimize AS clipping, so I'd imagine that now it'll basically boil down to:
BM wants to maximize serpent's swiftness, so as slow as possible.
MM wants to maximize efficiency to multi-shot's normalization to 2.8 speed, so as close to 2.8 as possible.
Surv wants to maximize the number of shots to keep procs like Master Tac and EW, so the faster the weapon the better.
07/20/08, 10:16 AM
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