WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 110

KraxisSingular · 09/19/08, 8:15 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

I believe GC was referring to the change already made to devilsaurs. Before, Monstrous Bite was a 5% stacking buff with a 10 second cooldown. At least that's what I'm hoping.

If people keep whining about devilsaurs being above all the other pets, they might get nerfed, unfortunately. And then PvE DPS hunters won't have any reason to take the 51 BM talent. A more logical approach would be to look to strengthen the Spirit Beast, the only other exotic pet that looks to be designed for PvE DPS, but if all that is done is crying about the devilsaur I don't think that will happen.

Otherwise, yes, make exotic pets a minor glyph (giving exotic pets the same abilities as similar normal pets) and change the 51 BM talent to be something that improves pet scaling drastically, like the Death Knight talent for ghouls.

Yes, she was commenting on the previous changes, but it is what she said after that that implied that they might have another go at the Devilsaur, and other pets with more DPS. And that is plain silly. DPS pets don't do more than utility pets, but utility pets don't stack with common raid buffs. So the question goes in a circle and it becomes, why bring a DPS pet when utility could one odd night a year become useful?
And of course Exotics... why even have them if they aren't going to be better. Why make it so that it is not only a talent point (expensive in it's own right) but also the top of the line talent. It smells of Shadowfury only less useful. To make Exotics work and make the 4 extra points the reason for picking them, there needs to be another tier of talents in the pet trees. A tier that is only unlocked if you have BM the talent. That tier would offer a number of options fitting for the pet tree. Ferocity could have some DPS and healthregen options, perhaps CD reduction options. Cunning would have various avoidance and cooldown reductions, and Tenacity would have threat, another CD and more survivability.
Three options per tree so you have to leave something good out even as BM. Further this wouldn't alienate MM and Surv as a restructuring of the pet trees would, they would feel they got their pets nerfed, and I think that is why that hasn't happened (and it shouldn't happen).

sjogren · 09/19/08, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by Schniepel

With Longevity and the BW Glyph (which you SHOULD use as BM) the BW cooldown is reduced to ~ 63 sec. That shoudn't be to hard to synchronize with other 2/3 min CDs. Personally I think using BW/TBW twice as often is where a lot of BMs power will come from.

Ah! Thank you, I completely forgot about glyphs.

Originally Posted by Shandara

Does the Glyph work in this order then? I thought it was the other way around and lead to a 70s CD on BW.

Even with a 70s cooldown, I think some napkin math would show that the difference in *hunter dps* between stacking (hence waiting with the trinket) and using the trinket on every cooldown is rather negligable. *Pet dps* on the other hand, would get a huge boost from the stacking, so all in all would likely be worth it.

Kajsa · 09/19/08, 11:52 AM

Why not just use BW every cooldown, any 2 min cooldowns the first, skip trinkets the 2nd then wait 20 seconds for the third round and pop trinkets again? I can't believe that waiting 50 seconds to use BW with trinkets is worth it.

0- trinket+BW

70- use BW, trinkets have 50 seconds left

120- you could use trinkets now but if you wait 20...

140- stack both BW and trinkets

It seems a far better solution than waiting till 120 to pop BW the second time, as I THINK I've interpreted some saying.

edit- without actually doing the numbers, it seems like this would be better personal dps as well as much better pet dps.

Kaejin · 09/19/08, 1:04 PM

First Spirit Beast found. Let the impending rat race to tame him begin.

Mania’s Arcania First Spirit Beast Found

Osse · 09/19/08, 1:55 PM

I'm speechless about the fact that 25 man Naxx set has 231 haste rating (including the 4 haste socket bonus). Is it 100% sure that haste rating doesn't reduce GCD? It just sounds absurd that such a "useless" stat eats so many itemization points in every tier piece.

Killme888 · 09/19/08, 2:03 PM

For the last time, it reduces SPELL gcd, such as mend pet. It does NOT reduce PHYSICAL abilities such as steady.

Galred · 09/19/08, 2:05 PM

Well if you look at the 4-piece set bonus (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...x25_hunter.jpg) it seems clear that Blizzards considers AotV plus Haste = mana regen mechanic for hunters.

Personally, I think that mechanic is broken - we should get some passive mana regen while in Viper, as a bare minimum buff to the way it works on Beta/PTR right now - and also that managing mana in that way doesn't sound very fun. It makes me wonder how to theorycraft INT/SPI gems and autoshot/afk once we burn through our mana bar as opposed to [X seconds of DPS] followed by [Y seconds of DPS -50%].

superblotto · 09/19/08, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Osse

I'm speechless about the fact that 25 man Naxx set has 231 haste rating (including the 4 haste socket bonus). Is it 100% sure that haste rating doesn't reduce GCD? It just sounds absurd that such a "useless" stat eats so many itemization points in every tier piece.

I was just talking to Relwin about this as well, and I made a post on the beta boards about it.
After GC stated that we are a "caster" I honestly wonder if they didn't realize we still have a locked GCD, or maybe they though with enough haste we'd all be running 1:1 shot rotations and sneaking in viper/chimera/explosive shot as necessary?

Cranch · 09/19/08, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Starwind

Cranch, what was rotation that you were using and what is the size of the mana pool you are refilling? From an earlier post another hunter, Kilraq, posted numbers for a SV rotation and was oom in just over 3 mins. I believe he was using a SerpSting, SS, ES rotation. Also, I was also under the impression that TotH was bugged in that it gives back mana for ticks of ES. Thanks in advance for responding.

Numbers have changed again, so this might just be an exercise in futility until we get the actual patch in hand.

As of today, on the PTR note, my survival rotation on a single Blasted Lands Servant goes OutOfMana in 1m55s. The rotation is actually just 1ES/3SS; I am finding that doing ES/SS/SerpSting is about the same dps but goes OOM sooner (makes sense, you lose a SS for a SerpSting, and since my SS's were hitting for 940 and critting for 1870 at a ~55% crit rate, the extra damage from the sting [plus talents that use that] ended up being a wash for me at level 70.)

ES returns about 1500 mana net, the other specials 500-600, and autoshot 400 (I had ~6700 mana.) So I just stick with the SS/ES rotation and get full mana in ~18 seconds (timed with a stopwatch this time.)

Thus, the AotV dps cost is ~7.8% today. That is, you can shoot indefinitely at a dps cost of 8%. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me.

I did note that it was easy to miss a SS sometimes, and the 1ES/2SS incorrect rotation does extend your OOM time considerably.

Aerynlore · 09/19/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Cranch

I did note that it was easy to miss a SS sometimes, and the 1ES/2SS incorrect rotation does extend your OOM time considerably.

This particular line made me think:
Hunters (especially BM) have been complaining in TBC that we are just macro-spammers. Make that pretty Auto-shot/Steady-shot/Kill-Command macro and smash finger on in it ad-infinitium. Are we just trading our non-clipping-auto-shot macro for a /castsequence macro?

Even rotations that take into account Serpent Stings... isn't that just going to be a /castsequence with a reset timer?

/castsequence [reset=6] Explosive Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot
/castsequence [reset=10] Chimera Shot, SS, SS, etc.

Maybe BM has it lucky in that it isn't a macro to just Steady Shot spam?

I'm missing something here, I have to be... am I?

Shandara · 09/19/08, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by Cranch

Numbers have changed again, so this might just be an exercise in futility until we get the actual patch in hand.

As of today, on the PTR note, my survival rotation on a single Blasted Lands Servant goes OutOfMana in 1m55s. The rotation is actually just 1ES/3SS; I am finding that doing ES/SS/SerpSting is about the same dps but goes OOM sooner (makes sense, you lose a SS for a SerpSting, and since my SS's were hitting for 940 and critting for 1870 at a ~55% crit rate, the extra damage from the sting [plus talents that use that] ended up being a wash for me at level 70.)

ES returns about 1500 mana net, the other specials 500-600, and autoshot 400 (I had ~6700 mana.) So I just stick with the SS/ES rotation and get full mana in ~18 seconds (timed with a stopwatch this time.)

Thus, the AotV dps cost is ~7.8% today. That is, you can shoot indefinitely at a dps cost of 8%. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me.

I did note that it was easy to miss a SS sometimes, and the 1ES/2SS incorrect rotation does extend your OOM time considerably.

Serpent Sting probably has the edge over Steady Shot at level 80 because it'll have a higher base damage and of course, raid mobs have higher armour than the Blasted Lands mobs.

And not to forget, Curse of Elements (and equal other class-abilities) give a 10-13% boost to it as well.

noth · 09/19/08, 3:18 PM

The reset argument means "if this macro is not touched in x seconds, reset to the first one." if you remove the clause from your macro, it should work the way you expect it... (Actually it should work the way you expect, regardless, but your reset clause isn't doing anything useful since you're mashing it). You might want one that weaves Serpent Stings in as well, though. And yeah, I wonder if you are, too, but that's the way things are looking to me, too. :/

Cranch · 09/19/08, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Serpent Sting probably has the edge over Steady Shot at level 80 because it'll have a higher base damage and of course, raid mobs have higher armour than the Blasted Lands mobs.

And not to forget, Curse of Elements (and equal other class-abilities) give a 10-13% boost to it as well.

Understood. The rotation would end up at level 80 as 1Serp 1ES 3SS 1ES 3SS (assuming that Blizzard is able to fix the bug that prevents SerpS from overwriting the existing one sometimes.)

I'm just focused at the moment on what I should do to optimize my dps between the 3.0 patch and LK.

Shandara · 09/19/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Cranch

Understood. The rotation would end up at level 80 as 1Serp 1ES 3SS 1ES 3SS (assuming that Blizzard is able to fix the bug that prevents SerpS from overwriting the existing one sometimes.)

I'm just focused at the moment on what I should do to optimize my dps between the 3.0 patch and LK.

I guess that depends on whether the Steady Shot Glyph will be available at level 70.

Aerynlore · 09/19/08, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by noth

The reset argument means "if this macro is not touched in x seconds, reset to the first one." if you remove the clause from your macro, it should work the way you expect it... (Actually it should work the way you expect, regardless, but your reset clause isn't doing anything useful since you're mashing it). You might want one that weaves Serpent Stings in as well, though. And yeah, I wonder if you are, too, but that's the way things are looking to me, too. :/

I'm sorry, it seems my point was a little unclear.
I'm not happy mashing a macro, and having it be the best DPS cycle I can do. It's rather dull on Live, and I know I'm not the only one. It's a topic that has been brought up multiple times, and was something that we were hoping Hunters would get to move away from. However, it seems that the macro has just morphed, but we're still going to be macro-spamming. The macros I provided were simply examples of what they may look like.

My point is that I'm looking for someone with experience on Beta to tell us why Hunters aren't just macro-spammers 3.0. Shiny new toys like Explosive Shot, Chimera Shot, Steady Shot Glyph just seem to be spices that haven't changed the base soup (ok.. this analogy is going all over the place).

It seems that Survival has the most hope to not being just a one-button hunter with the occasional LnL proc, thus switching to a pair of free Ex Shots, then it's back to the macro.

EDIT (and side-note): The point of a [reset=XX] is so if you have to move and miss a Steady Shot, the macro will reset back to the base shot (ES, CS) when the cooldown is up.

noth · 09/19/08, 4:37 PM

I was a bit garbled myself, evidently hadn't had enough coffee yet. I still don't understand why you'd want such a long reset if you just want it to reset when you move (do you move for 10 seconds whenever you move as MM?), but really, it's not relevant to this discussion so don't mind me.

I was trying (badly) to agree with your concern, although my hunter on beta seems to be doing fine actually hitting the buttons. I wasn't having too hard a time getting my 3 steady shots in between my ES, until the lag got so bad I stopped really playing. My biggest issue was not noticing LnL go off, and missing my extra shot.

And, really, the more I think about it, isn't this just what other classes face? I certainly saw folks who used /castsequence macros as a ret pally, I'm sure folks made em for other classes, as well. I *hope* that hand-timed rotations will be better, now, because you can adapt to changes in haste, talent procs, and buffs, rather than worse like it has been.

Cranch · 09/19/08, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

I guess that depends on whether the Steady Shot Glyph will be available at level 70.

Unless its ingredients change, it won't be (it currently requires Ink of the Sea to make, which requires Northrend herbs.)

superblotto · 09/19/08, 5:00 PM

Unless you have zero lag and all your timings line up perfectly eventually in your cycle you will have to make a decision along the lines of: Do I (Steady Shot || Chimera Shot/Explosive Shot || Serpent Sting) depending on cooldown (for example if Explosive Shot is .5 seconds from being off CD it would be unwise to Steady Shot, because you will miss at least 1 tick of explosive shot). Knowing which one to pick is what will make you do more dps and be a better player. No macro will make the decision as well as a good player.

The reasoning behind the SS macro on Live is that the mechanic of Steady Shot clipping autoshot is inelegant, and hand weaving shots is concentration intensive. Also varying levels of haste can make it extremely difficult to do well.

Bellin · 09/19/08, 5:09 PM

From my point of view, exotic pets are not that exotic. 50 dps difference between Raptor and Devilsaur is not worth 51st talent point. If we are looking at 3000+ dps that is 1.67% dps increase from ultimate BM talent. Yes your pet gains some survivability, but I find this very lame. But that Devilsaur looks imba no matter what

I like an idea of having additional tier, or just having additional dps abilities available in current tiers.

As for possible macros, I was thinking about:
/cast steady shot
/castrandom Explosive Shot
/castrandom kill command

while hand-weaving Serpent.

Ristoril · 09/19/08, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara
I guess that depends on whether the Steady Shot Glyph will be available at level 70.

Unless its ingredients change, it won't be (it currently requires Ink of the Sea to make, which requires Northrend herbs.)

It is available at 70, i have it on PTR as one of my glyphs

phasedweasel · 09/19/08, 5:25 PM

Good evening. Sorry to interrupt, but I haven't played in about a year. I'm considering getting back in as a hunter. Do hunters in PvE still have to be careful in their rotations to avoid clipping the autoshot by watching the animation, or are they free to perform their sequence as soon as GCDs allow and autoshots will go off as normal? Thank you!

Bellin · 09/19/08, 5:31 PM

Good evening. Sorry to interrupt, but I haven't played in about a year. I'm considering getting back in as a hunter. Do hunters in PvE still have to be careful in their rotations to avoid clipping the autoshot by watching the animation, or are they free to perform their sequence as soon as GCDs allow and autoshots will go off as normal? Thank you!

As from 3.0 auto-shot will not be linked to special shots.

Tyranna · 09/19/08, 6:27 PM

Originally Posted by Bellin

As from 3.0 auto-shot will not be linked to special shots.

The only exception is Aimed Shot. That still does reset the auto-shot timer iirc. Meaning you can spam up the GCD to your heart's content and it shouldn't muck up your auto-shots at all. They should be landing at your hasted shot speed whatever that may be.

Cranch · 09/19/08, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by Ristoril

It is available at 70, i have it on PTR as one of my glyphs

That's because you could make the ink from Mageroyal initially on the PTR; when the patch is released to live, you won't be able to (thanks to Reliq.)

Illy · 09/19/08, 8:33 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

I heard people claiming the Devilsaur is only 50 DPS ahead of the Raptor, so it is already very close.

Only having access to the PTR and limited to the target dummies in Theramore I was running some tests before the servers shut down and saw both about the same dps. Was running this build for both the Devilsaur and Raptor and this build for myself.

Was only able to run 2 tests each, was just the pet on the Theramore dummies with me auto-firing (Recount wouldn't show the data otherwise for the pet) and the devilsaur was only ahead by a small amount (devilsaur was at 633, 634 to the raptor's 626 and 630). The biggest concern I could see is debuff slot limitations on the boss hurting the raptor.

On a completely unrelated note, I was able to get in a small raid doing some 2m dps checks. There were several spriests the entire time and a ret pali for the last run, however over every run (3-4) I never saw more than one Replenishment up at a time. Does this not stack?

Edit: Should clarify both pets were 65 and both had every dps ability on autocast. Tests were about 3:20 long each (right before a 2nd CotW would go off).