WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 112

Shandara · 09/20/08, 4:54 PM

I've just finished a long test with my trust old Ghost Sabre Cat and it's new shiny ability Rake.

Since it ignores armour I was particularly interested in how much better/worse it'd be than Claw/Smack/Bite. Despite the 10s CD it frontloads quite a decent amount of damage (slightly more than Claw/Bite/Smack).

Then comes the DoT.. different from what the tooltip suggests, it ticks every 3 seconds for the amount listed (rather than spread it _over_ those 3 seconds). Still it delivers all that damage in 1 GCD, so while the DPS is lower than Claw the actual damage/GCD used is far higher.

It represents quite a big DPS improvements for Cats (mostly because it ignores armour). My spreadsheet puts them ahead of Devilsaurs by a decent margin. I haven't tried (or am able to try) Spirit Beasts yet, but I imagine they'll be the same (depending on how the ability works with Longevity)

Hurray for Cats?

To give some numbers:

My level 70 Cat was hitting a level 80 Mechanical Target Dummy.

Claw hit for 78 on average
Rake hits for 122 avg up front and then 89 per DoT Tick. So 392 total.

Bellin · 09/20/08, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

Like I said, the people posting about the devilsaur aren't "whining" that it does too much damage because they don't want devilsaurs to be any good. They are pointing out that if Blizzard doesn't want hunters using one pet above all others (which Ghostcrawler specifically said they didn't want to happen), then they probably should try making the other pets a bit better. Even if you believe that exotic pets should always be better than non-exotics, that still wouldn't justify a large discrepancy between the devilsaur and the two other exotic ferocity pets. At the very least, all three of those should be in the same ballpark.

And that's only if you concede that speccing 51 points into BM means you're stuck using exotics. Blizzard said they were designing the talent so that taming an exotic pet is an option, but even if you don't use one then your non-exotic pet is still supposed to be considerably more powerful than it would be if you didn't spec into that talent (because of the additional talents). Right now people aren't seeing that kind of benefit (the additional 4 points in ferocity only go toward "extra" talents that don't affect dps), so the talent needs some work or the differences between pets needs work. Two 51-point BM hunters using ferocity pets (either exotic or not) should be putting out similar damage via pets, and it goes without saying that either of those pets should do considerably more damage than MM/SV pets.

It just doesn't follow that the only way to make the 51-point BM talent worthwhile is to boost exotics to the point where they are the only pets that make sense using. It actually creates a weird design/spec conundrum -- if we go the "exotics or gtfo" route, then all the design work that went into the various pet families ends up only benefiting MM/SV hunters or BM hunters who skip the last talent, because they would be the only ones to use those pets. It's almost completely backwards to spec all the way into the "pet-centric spec" and end up with fewer pet choices than the specs that presumably have less invested in them.

As I said before there is an option of adding new pet talents, but at the moment only difference are better skills that are available to exotic pets.

As for the wolf, it was just an example, but people aren't always in raids, and raids aren't only 25-man anymore. It's pretty easy to have a 10-man raid without a paladin or warrior in it, and those are the two classes whose raid buffs don't stack with furious howl at the moment (it stacks with the percentage-based buffs, which seems intended).

To be perfectly honest Paladin is most common class on alliance side, I really doubt I will do even 10-man without one. On the other side those runs are usually caster heavy and it will take some math to determine if they are worth bringing (I hope they will be, I like that skin

)

Chul · 09/20/08, 7:18 PM

Yeah Rake is actually pretty good, especially if a Mangle debuff is on the target (+30% to bleed damage).

The only downside is that if you put a couple of points into Longevity, you can miss the last tick of the DoT component.

Kamaa · 09/20/08, 7:24 PM

Is the first page being updated? I see the edit tag, but it doesn't seem up to date.

Mikari · 09/20/08, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

Can confirm that myself. BM is completely lackluster and lags behind the other specs pretty hard. Right now you are gimping yourself badly if you plan to spec as BM and raid. There's absolutely no reason to spec it. The entire bottom of the tree is more or less horrible and needs reworked, the 51 pointer is extremely sad, and it needs a lot of work in general.

All three specs should be relatively close to each other, but BM is not at all in the same ballpark as Marks and Survival.

Not to mention that Survival is a lot more fun to play, Explosive Shot is a lot of fun. Sure beats just spamming Steady Shot over and over. I'm a die hard BM on live but if things go live how they are currently I'll be survival I think.

Spiry · 09/20/08, 7:39 PM

The issue I have is my totally childish love...my Devilsaur is called Grimlock >_>

But for once I've come to the point I've never been to before: play the game for total fun yet gimp myself, or play for highest damage, yet not having as much fun (but still having fun mind you!).

RoBoBOBR · 09/20/08, 9:04 PM

When i use wotlk spreadsheet to see what kind of damage we'll see on lvl 80 - BM comes on top =/ I'm setting shots in shot priority, change pets, yet BM shows 500-600 dps more then SV/MM. What am i missing? Or is spreadsheet way off?

Neruse · 09/20/08, 9:09 PM

Originally Posted by Kamaa

Is the first page being updated? I see the edit tag, but it doesn't seem up to date.

Whelp, I took the easy route for keeping it updated. Sorry, I just don't have the time to troll around for info and keep detailed notes.

Ketari · 09/20/08, 9:44 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

My spreadsheet puts them ahead of Devilsaurs by a decent margin.

Soo Cats are now the highest DPS pets?

Chul · 09/20/08, 10:35 PM

I did some testing today to see if there was any pet spell priority system in place. Short answer is NO.

I had Growl, Claw and Rake on auto cast and attacked the target dummies with a full focus bar (I then stopped the pet and waited for the focus to regen). The spells cast were completely random; sometimes not even casting growl.

I put in a suggestion on how priority could be done:
Priority 1 - Growl
Priority 2 - Cower (in case we need to use it for Imp Cower talent)
Priority 3 - Spells with cooldowns, with the longer the cooldown the higher the priority.
Priority 4 - Spells with no cooldowns, exluded Focus Dump (if there are even any, but mainly for completeness sake)
Priority 5 - Focus Dump

So normally the pet will regen focus slowly and normal focus cost restrictions apply to what it can cast and what it can't. But GftT procs throw that out as do the focus dumps and racials that cost the same (like Claw and Rake).

Akston · 09/20/08, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by RoBoBOBR

When i use wotlk spreadsheet to see what kind of damage we'll see on lvl 80 - BM comes on top =/ I'm setting shots in shot priority, change pets, yet BM shows 500-600 dps more then SV/MM. What am i missing? Or is spreadsheet way off?

Wierd... Turning on all raid buffs in the wotlk spreadsheet and using all 10/25 man gear survival is slightly ahead of MM and both MM and SV are a good 500 dps ahead of BM.

Sean · 09/21/08, 1:09 AM

Originally Posted by Akston

Wierd... Turning on all raid buffs in the wotlk spreadsheet and using all 10/25 man gear survival is slightly ahead of MM and both MM and SV are a good 500 dps ahead of BM.

Every spreadsheet I configure has BM trailing by a good 500 dps. Self tests on the 80 dummies with my crummy level 70 sunwell gear at 80 put out a 300~ or so difference as well.

Steelfleece · 09/21/08, 4:20 AM

Which is odd, because as of two builds ago every raid I went on I did more damage as Beast Mastery + Devilsaur than Survival.

And Chul, I find that even with Cower on autocast the pet doesn't seem to ever actually cast it unless it actually has aggro. I thought about putting it on autocast to take advantage of Improved Cower as well, but it didn't work out!

Shandara · 09/21/08, 4:29 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Which is odd, because as of two builds ago every raid I went on I did more damage as Beast Mastery + Devilsaur than Survival.

And Chul, I find that even with Cower on autocast the pet doesn't seem to ever actually cast it unless it actually has aggro. I thought about putting it on autocast to take advantage of Improved Cower as well, but it didn't work out!

This is how Cower is worked forever I believe. Last time I tried to use it (must be 2 years ago now) I noticed that behavior as well. It is still a useless ability if they haven't fixed it yet!

sjogren · 09/21/08, 6:40 AM

I've been fiddling on the PTR a bit. From what I can see, explosive shot doesn't trigger expose weakness. Has anyone else seen that?

Sympa · 09/21/08, 6:36 PM

For anyone still addressing concerns on haste and the Ilvl being attributed to that stat on gear for wotlk, I've made a post on the beta forums here. Feel free to post your thoughts on the issue and moreover plausible solutions.
WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Haste DPS Mechanics

◊ Lactose · 09/21/08, 8:01 PM

The problem with Haste is simply that it doesn't have a big enough effect on our DPS, compared to other DPS stats.
If Haste is to become a viable stat for us, it has to be brought in line with the other stats, at least more than it is now.
There are a number of ways Haste could become more benefitial to us - it could effect our special ratios (global cooldown), transfer in some degree to our pets, etc.

Judging by the set bonus from Naxxramas, it appears that Blizzard sees Haste as A Good Thing™ when you're using Aspect of the Viper. The problem with this is that spending itemization points on Intellect instead would be much better, as well as grant you longer before needing to change to Aspect of the Viper in the first place. For most builds, it would also give a Ranged Attack Power boost, via Careful Aim.

Forcing all loot to either have or not have Haste doesn't seem like a very elegant solution.

Sympa · 09/21/08, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by Lactose

Forcing all loot to either have or not have Haste doesn't seem like a very elegant solution.

I agree with you however thats only the second option I mentioned. Moving toward a 1 second GCD would be a much more viable option.

Catalept · 09/21/08, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by Sympa

I agree with you however thats only the second option I mentioned. Moving toward a 1 second GCD would be a much more viable option.

I don't know about that. Crit already pushes DPS weighting towards the player as their gear improves. With the addition of haste as another primary DPS stat that doesn't (meaningfully) affect pet DPS, this effect will only be exacerbated. With both crit and haste boosting hunter-only DPS, the negative impact of gear-progression on BM's raid viability could be quite pronounced.

If Blizzard wants to keep haste as a primary hunter DPS stat and make our pets do a higher percentage of our DPS than they did for SV/MM hunters in BC (which, IIRC, they have explicitly stated as being a WLK design goal), as I see it, the only option is to allow pets to scale strongly with our passive haste.

Steelfleece · 09/21/08, 9:29 PM

I have also suggested that they should push talents and Glyphs and such that make Auto-Shot a more significant part of our DPS, since that will always be affected by haste.

Unfortunately, the talent trees introduced in Wrath of the Lich King have been steadily moving further and further away from that.

Catalept · 09/21/08, 9:38 PM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

I have also suggested that they should push talents and Glyphs and such that make Auto-Shot a more significant part of our DPS, since that will always be affected by haste.

Unfortunately, the talent trees introduced in Wrath of the Lich King have been steadily moving further and further away from that.

The essential problem is that our starting point is (roughly) a 1:1:1 distribution of DPS between GCD shots, auto shot and pet damage, of which only one is affected by passive haste. Minor tweaks to the distribution won't really help haste's uselessness. In order for it to become desirable, Blizzard has to double its effectiveness, which they can't do without either removing one of the 3 pillars of hunter DPS, or allowing full GCD or pet scaling. Fortunately, they've already stated that they'll be allowing pets to get our +hit... hopefully that's a precedent that'll make passive haste scaling a no-brainer.

Steelfleece · 09/21/08, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by Catalept

The essential problem is that our starting point is (roughly) a 1:1:1 distribution of DPS between GCD shots, auto shot and pet damage, of which only one is affected by passive haste. Minor tweaks to the distribution won't really help haste's uselessness. In order for it to become desirable, Blizzard has to double its effectiveness. Fortunately, they've already stated that they'll be allowing pets to get our +hit... hopefully that's a precedent that'll make passive haste scaling a no-brainer.

Well, I would say that having Haste Rating affect our pets would be a starting point, but I'm not sure that alone would solve the problem (for one thing, even that would only apply to PART of pet DPS, since it would also only affect a pet's auto-attacks). Helping Auto-Shot out a bit would certainly help Haste Rating become more desirable.

Kaejin · 09/21/08, 9:52 PM

What if haste affected both focus regen and pet GCD to some degree?

I also think our crit rating should have a minor effect on our pets, but that's little to do with fixing haste.

Chul · 09/21/08, 10:57 PM

Crit rating does indirectly affect our pets via Go for the Throat and Cobra Strikes (and the old Kill Command). With the change to spell pushback, pet attack speed doesn't matter as much in PvP so the hunters haste could scale to the pet.

Remember also that pets don't have any rating stats so this could be a good change to make: Give pets a haste rating stat and give them X% of the hunters haste rating. It solves the issue of haste being too costly for the benefit it gives as well as allowing them to benefit from haste drums.

Catalept · 09/21/08, 11:04 PM

TBH, I can't help wondering if the best solution isn't just to remove haste from mail and tweak enchance shammies accordingly (if they need it at all).

Still, it'd be nice to know what Blizzard is thinking... one can only hope they're aware of the low payoff haste gives to hunters, but it'd be nice to know what their gameplan was.