Bloodwrath

My thought was unless autoshot is like 0.5 speed we could replace one of our autoshots with an aimed in the rotations.

 

Mysto82

Ah, got it.

The Problem is that you can't replace the autoshot unless you only shoot autoshots. If you cast an aimed after an autoshot you replace a steady and a autoshot (assuming we cast 1 autoshot in the time of 1 aimed, what will become difficult with all the haste gear).

 

Spiry

Did some Theramore tests on my t4/5 geared Survival Hunter. I was buffed with a flask of relentless assault (120ap) and had a cat.

I was expecting to see the standard spread of autoshot at 45-50% of the dps with the shots and stings spread among the rest...



My rotation was ES SS SS SS whilst keeping up sting and HM, popping RF KC and Readiness. On LnL procs ES SS ES SS ES.

I also provided some other screens for people to look at to see if they can glean anything interesting...(I still have the data saved so if you want me to show other screens I can provided you help me navigate the unintuitive recount ui.)

 

KraxisSingular

So 30% of 78%, that's 23.4% of the overall DPS is affected by Haste...

No wait a minute that would arguably be less if you had a WF totem around. Pet damage would go up, Steady would go up, Auto would go up, but not as much. Perhaps Auto would comprise as little as 20% or even less? Is it possible for anyone to test like that? It shouldn't be impossible to party with an Enhancer that wants to test himself.

Btw, very interesting to see the Viper drops in DPS and how long they last. So averaged you did about 1700-1800 DPS?

 

Terp

Wouldn't a level 1 targetting dummy weigh anything affected by Mortal Shots significantly more?

 

Ferrari_13

On the latest PTR they buffed AotV to "reduces 40% of total damage" this is a nice buff for our DPS and mana regen.

 

Greenpiggy

Testing on target dummies gives really skewed results in favour of physical damage.
Please can people test on blasted lands servants or something similar so we can see slightly more realistic figures that don't negate the entire stat of armour penetration?

 

Harwin

I was under the impression that the high end target dummy had 10500 armor.

 

sjogren

You sure that's not just the Aspect Mastery talent?

 

Ferrari_13

Yes, my bad completely forgot i respeced BM after the recent talent reset. Thank you for pointing that out i feel so dumb now .

 

Greenpiggy

Ah, well if thats the case then fine, but some have zero armour so its a little difficult to trawl through who's using what - and given that the spec comparisons vary so vastly depending on who's using what type, it would be nice if people would mention what dummy it was before polluting the thread with badly tested dps comparisons.

 

Cranch

Blizzard and we may have more of a problem than just haste.

The nominal dps of that survival hunter with gear from just the first set of instances and full raid buffs is ~6400 (against a lvl 83 boss.) Even discounting that a bit, that still looks like an approximate tripling of hunter dps from ~2K now. The implication of course is that dps will be a lot higher than that when we get to Arthas' gear drops (otherwise what's the point of slogging it out to the end instance of LK?)

That seems like an unusually fast growth rate in dps. I don't remember what the dps was for a fully geared lvl 60 hunter back then -- perhaps 800 dps? So we went from 800 to 2K in BC, now we're going from 2K to what, 10K at the end of LK?

If Blizzard is actually taking this route, then minor details about how much haste you have is going to be overwhelmed by the total stats of iLvl 320 items...

 

Leica

I'm assuming I'm "that survival hunter" you're referring to. Blizzard has a pretty tricky situation on their hands for sure. There's a lot of issues with our dps and scaling right now, and they're just starting to work it out I would imagine. The biggest complication for all of it, however, is trying to balance our class for both PvE and PvP.

PvE - We're a mounted turret, rarely having to move and able to use our full dps rotation to heart's end. We've got a pet with few survivability issues who typically lasts the length of an entire fight.

PvP - We lose the ability to use Steady Shot (20%) of our dps reliably, we can still be "shut down" to some extent by the deadzone, or by reverse kiting where your target is constantly running towards you forcing you to use Steady Shot time to move away. Our pets die very quickly and their dps is eliminated or marginalized (20%), and we're forced to use a defensive pet rather than an offensive one, our pet dps can be completely negated or marginalized easily. Add the fact that pet crit is nonexistant due to resilience and any kind of healing done to our pets is far less efficient than healing on players and our healers are forced to let our pets die or be far less efficient with their mana to keep them alive. Stings are cleansable in PvP.

Now, please don't read this as a whine. It's just the real challenge Blizzard is facing right now with our class. How do they make our class more competitive in PvP while not completely overpowering us in PvE? It's something they've been struggling with since the game released and it's something they're struggling with now.

My character on beta now is in full naxx 10/25 gear basically, and on a 10 man Patchwerk a few nights ago I pulled 3800 dps. In a 10 man. Our PvE dps is pretty insane right now (not unlike on live when given an appropriate group).

Vis Maior - Bonechewer - http://www.vismaior.org - Bonechewer Alliance PVP

 

Shandara

Not discounting the fact that we might have some models/calculations wrong, there is one thing to consider:

Encounter design

With our scaling (and we scale very well, really, with the right buffs) if we manage to stack every possible buff there is we can indeed reach very high levels of DPS.

Yet how feasible is this? Can we really benefit from these buffs continuously if fights beyond T7 prove to be more mobility based than most Naxx fights?

Despite that, I expect Blizzard will tone down scaling on most of our abilities (especially pet-related) at some point. They started this by removing all %-based scaling talents for AP (except our 'utility' buff TSA).

This scaling is BM's greatest advantage, yet greatest weakness. Without a fully buffed pet I don't see BM being competitive against SV, which is far more self-sufficient.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

Kaejin

I'm a little surprised that Explosive Shot is 40% of your DPS, but I really shouldn't be, considering how much damage it does.

I'm a little curious now about what % Chimera Shot makes of Marks DPS, and a little bit more depressed about Beast Mastery.

 

MikeMo

Fully geared level 60 Hunters pre-tbc were doing about 450-500 DPS on Patchwerk. At least the typical 20/31/0 or 0/20/31 specs. After 2.0 came out and BM became more like what it is now a couple guys hit closer to 800 DPS.

 

Norest

Testing explosive shot on Theramore dummies is inaccurate, because it hits the nearby dummies as well, which results in Recount recording more DPS than you actually did.


Edit : Last time I checked, LnL only procced on the first initial Serpent Sting tick. I had friends tell me that it changed. Does LnL now have a chance to proc on every SS tick, or still only the first?

 

greendef

I was under impression that Theramore has six or so Target Dummies grouped together, which would give Explosive shot an extra boost from AoE damage.

 

Spiry

D'oh! :S
Guess that's skewed then, didn't think of that.

I noticed LnL only trigger on application, never on tick. It would be nice if it were on tick, but I think they're trying to curb our DPS, not boost it more.

 

Cranch

So, a more accurate statement would be (I rechecked the "post your max dps" threads on the wow forum):

We'll see the 3.0 lvl 70 Brutallus numbers fairly soon. They should be interesting. If Blizzard continues to weaken our talents to compensate for the more powerful upcoming item scaling, then it's possible we'll drop below our current dps by the time 3.0 arrives. (As of last week, my superficial testing showed about the same dps until OutOfMana on the blasted lands servant on PTR and live, with same gear, best build for each.)

 

Disargeria

New blue post on AotV.

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> [Feedback] Hunter Mana + Viper concerns
What is all this about Mp5? Are they taking out all the haste and replacing it with Mp5? It also feels like he doesn't understand how the drawbacks of AotV are amplified in arenas, like getting trapped in melee with no mana.

 

Xoran

What? o.O Has this guy ever seriously played a hunter?

 

Dralmoo

I think most likely Koraa is posting but doesn't actually work very closely with the Hunter class, since he/she isn't aware that there hasn't been mp5 on Hunter set gear since T3, and that nobody uses AotV currently for serious PvE.

Presumably there are more than the two devs who post on forums working on class design.

edit: in fact, already corrected himself.

 

Melkunie

Mp5?
Using Viper constantly?

I'm lost here. You would guess if a blue posts on a class forum he would investigate the class a bit on forehand.

 

Disargeria

Keep in mind he's talking about ALL hunters, not just the serious raiders. I'll be the first to admit I took the cheap way out the moment I got viper and used it all the time. I used it for leveling, farming, instances, trash pulls, even just kept it up on boss fights so I didn't have to bother myself with mana potions. Let's not bash him for not understanding hunters when he could very well be talking about most of them.

Edit: Ok, maybe not completely competent:
How could he just forget something like that?