Just a note - none of the plate-wearing physical DPS classes want haste, either. It scales horribly for both Arms and Fury (as I understand it), Ret paladins couldn't care less, and DKs are trying to decide whether Haste or Armor Penetration is shittier (depends on spec, really, there, but they're both godawful).
Probably because unlike us, the devs aren't focused on hunters most of the time. They have to juggle a lot, since they don't have a "rogue designer" or a "hunter designer" or what have you. I'm sure there are those of us here who might make a misstep if we had to speak about some other class, even if we make a point to keep up with the developments in all of them. Plus with the changes that go back and forth, and various discussions that take place on there end, it's not hard to imagine that at some point there was going to be mp5 on mail gear and he wasn't thinking about the design change when he first posted. It's not like he said something that hasn't been true for years like hunters need spellpower or something.
And I agree, he's talking about hunters in general. There were plenty of PvP posts, for example, where hunters said they put INT enchants on weapons and spent entire matches in Viper. Loads of people (myself included) farmed in Viper, like Disargeria described. Aspects are more interesting as a mechanic if people adapt to the situation and switch -- it's not like people run around in Monkey most of the time or anything. Switching has its issues, which they've partially addressed (reduced GCD), but they may need to do more.
Yet how feasible is this? Can we really benefit from these buffs continuously if fights beyond T7 prove to be more mobility based than most Naxx fights?
Explosive shot's an instant, so SV damage should still do well in mobility fights.
Scaling with 60% of AP may be a little overwhelming.
Frankly, Hunter's DPS right now is balanced with Aspect of the Viper in mind. If we, say, reduced the amount of time you were in it drastically or the damage penalty we'd have to do something equivalent of reducing Hunter's total DPS by at least 10-30%. While you guys might not notice it with the pre-mades, the Hunter class is currently king of DPS.
What I do buy is that when you're soloing, between pulls or not able to attack, you aren't gaining the regeneration. What we could do is make the regeneration passive and not require you to attack, but basically just regenerate mana. (It would still have the damage penalty though)
Q u o t e:
Frankly, Hunter's DPS right now is balanced with Aspect of the Viper in mind. If we, say, reduced the amount of time you were in it drastically or the damage penalty we'd have to do something equivalent of reducing Hunter's total DPS by at least 10-30%. While you guys might not notice it with the pre-mades, the Hunter class is currently king of DPS.
What I do buy is that when you're soloing, between pulls or not able to attack, you aren't gaining the regeneration. What we could do is make the regeneration passive and not require you to attack, but basically just regenerate mana. (It would still have the damage penalty though)
Followed by a request:
That would be nice, yes. When we're soloing, between pulls, or not able to attack (which should really be changed to PVP in general, as the functionality is very PVP unfriendly), AOTV serves no purpose. I think passive regen at a respectable rate would be entirely alright.
Originally Posted by Koraa
Done =]
Edit:Bah beaten, but mine looks nicer! Has colours!
Originally Posted by Ulthwithian
Paladins do have an ability to heal multiple people at once. It's called Divine Storm. ><
So basically I turn it on, and now i'll do less damage but the regen will happen regardless of whether I'm attacking?
SO this is the old viper with a damage reduction?
How much regen do we gain from this now to make it worth using compared to the old version?
Edit: So after reading the new quotes that sounds rightish...I dunno this just sounds fishy.
And here's your answer!
The mana is not based upon your damage. It is a general rule now to not make your mana scale with damage or healing etc., because mana doesn't scale as fast as those stats. What it does is regenerate a % of your base mana relative to your weapon speed (nullifying the need to have a fast or slow weapon to game the aspect).
What we're going to do is balance the passive regen to be around the same as if you were attacking the target.
Keep in mind he's talking about ALL hunters, not just the serious raiders. I'll be the first to admit I took the cheap way out the moment I got viper and used it all the time. I used it for leveling, farming, instances, trash pulls, even just kept it up on boss fights so I didn't have to bother myself with mana potions. Let's not bash him for not understanding hunters when he could very well be talking about most of them.
With all due respect to our non-raiding, non-PvPing brethren... if Viper fails as an Arena skill, and fails as a Raid skill, then I really don't give a damn how well it works for how many people. When we get mana gems, then comparing Viper to Evocate is sensible. When we do a good percentage of our damage via dots, comparing Viper to Life Tap is sensible. So long as Viper is the sole means of mana recovery, arguing that it necessitates a large damage reduction is... ill-informed.
This sounds potentially good, so long as what they consider "as if we were attacking the target" the same thing we consider it (blasting away with steady, serpent sting, and arcane/chimera/explosive).
The mana is not based upon your damage. It is a general rule now to not make your mana scale with damage or healing etc., because mana doesn't scale as fast as those stats. What it does is regenerate a % of your base mana relative to your weapon speed (nullifying the need to have a fast or slow weapon to game the aspect).
Ok, I honestly don't understand this... how is it different from the current "slow weapon for Viper" style? As long as it is relative to weaponspeed certain speeds will simply be better. And basemana? I hope he mistyped there. If not then a T9 Hunter would likely have to sit in Viper much longer than a green Hunter. Is that what they want? They intend to make the larger manapool merely result in fewer aspect GCDs? If that is so, then Leather doesn't look bad at all since the DPS gain in getting rid of Haste and getting proper stats would outweigh the loss of changing aspects more often. To a degree of course.
Hmm... Well, at least they are throwing us a bone in regards to PvP regeneration. One down 200 to go.
The main problem I had with the Mp5/always Viper post was that he presented a view of the devs.
We want Hunters to care about their regeneration, we want them to like mp5 on their gear.
But how do we care about regeneration without Mp5? Obviously he can't be that far behind the times, why would he be posting then? So we have to assume they want us to do something about our expenditure of mana... But aside from not shooting I don't know.
So regardless that he was wrong about Mp5 on our gear he still presented the devs views of us. And I didn't particularly like it. If he was merely trying to chat it up and was speaking without any real knowledge on the matter then how can we truly rely on his comments later? For all we know he could be chatting again without any insight. Also one has to ask, why would he do that? Placate us?
I don't know which scenario is worse...
Mistakes are fair enough, it can happen, but here he was adressing a serious issue, even talking direct balance, yet something didn't fit even the live scenario. That isn't a mistake anymore, it is an issue in it's own right.
And basemana? I hope he mistyped there. If not then a T9 Hunter would likely have to sit in Viper much longer than a green Hunter. Is that what they want?
Given that T9 hunter's shots don't cost any more than a Green hunter's, regenning off base mana makes sense if your aim is that "x seconds in Viper means x * y out of it". If it was done off total mana, T9 hunters would have to spend much less time in Viper to get, say, 30 second's worth of time out of it.
One of the things that irritates me is that blue posts seem to be inferring that Viper should have as DPS penalty built into it, as if Hawk didn't exist. Ugh... this is looking more and more like Blizzard is just trying random crap out on us... after having so much time to come up with a robust solution to hunter mana issues, that's a worry.
One of the things that irritates me is that blue posts seem to be inferring that Viper should have as DPS penalty built into it, as if Hawk didn't exist.
This would have to be the main thing that bugs me about the dps loss in AotV.
It seems that the devs are forgetting that we are _already_ taking a dps hit from not having AotH up when we switch to Viper, and then they slug us with _another_ dps hit with the actual mechanics of being in Viper. Fixing the double dipping with this would make it a bit better in my opinion. How do do this without it seeming too OP for other classes to not whine about it, I dont know. Although currently, most other classes are too focused on their own issues to cry about us. Maybe we can sneak some stuff past them
EDIT: maybe with aspect mastery they could add the AP from hawk to viper. Although that would only effect BM. Or they could somehow make Imp AotH give the ap to Viper. This would compensate it a small way, but having to spend points to not get hit twice by mechanics sucks imo.
This would have to be the main thing that bugs me about the dps loss in AotV.
It seems that the devs are forgetting that we are _already_ taking a dps hit from not having AotH up when we switch to Viper, and then they slug us with _another_ dps hit with the actual mechanics of being in Viper. Fixing the double dipping with this would make it a bit better in my opinion. How do do this without it seeming too OP for other classes to not whine about it, I dont know. Although currently, most other classes are too focused on their own issues to cry about us. Maybe we can sneak some stuff past them
I think what's missing is that other DPS casters have two mana regen abilities, one fast and one slow. Whether it's Evocate/Mana Gem, Life Tap/Mana Drain or Shadow Fiend/Vampiric Touch. Part of the problem seems to be that Viper is being hacked and bent to try and fit both roles. IMO, what we need is for Viper to be a fast, high-cost abilty (so perhaps keep the 50% damage penalty), but a low-cost slow regen ability to be added. e.g. Make Mend Pet give us 50% of the healing done back to us as mana.
Well, IMHO once again PVP has screwed us out of something that can be rather useful. So AotV reverts to being a passive mp5 ability?
TBH, I kind of liked the 'current' mechanics where Int is a valuable stat for us both with the direct conversion into AP and the fact that the more mana you have, the lower the ratio AotV time is compared to active DPS time. Not to mention it also gave some use for Rapid Fire and Rapid Recuperation for lower 'down time' during Viper and Efficiency had a purpose in reducing both the regularity of having to viper and reduces the time spent in it by increasing the effective regen per shot.
I don't want to start hurling stones yet until I see exactly how they're going to get the 'passive regen' mechanics right. Will it account for haste effects? Will I have to wait 16 seconds regardless of how much haste I have doing 50% damage? At least Evocation and Lifetap are quickened by their haste stats. Will I be compensated for taking 8 points in efficiency based talents? Those are the questions I'd love to see answered. There are two very different mechanics and needs. I would prefer to see AotV get split into two different aspects. One is passive, the other is active.
Yet another who misunderstands where this is going.
While I am a firm believer that PvP has ruined this game, this is not a case of it.
As it stands, it takes 15~ seconds to regen a full mana bar with the current implementation. What Koraa suggested is the same regeneration, but without the need to be hitting things for it, yet still having the penalty while hitting things.
The new regen's number hasn't been officially announced or even hinted at, but it's not going to be the 4 minutes (as someone in a thread somewhere mentioned) that the current live version takes. It's going to be a matter of seconds form 0% to 100%.
Originally Posted by Ulthwithian
Paladins do have an ability to heal multiple people at once. It's called Divine Storm. ><
This would have to be the main thing that bugs me about the dps loss in AotV.
It seems that the devs are forgetting that we are _already_ taking a dps hit from not having AotH up when we switch to Viper, and then they slug us with _another_ dps hit with the actual mechanics of being in Viper. Fixing the double dipping with this would make it a bit better in my opinion. How do do this without it seeming too OP for other classes to not whine about it, I dont know. Although currently, most other classes are too focused on their own issues to cry about us. Maybe we can sneak some stuff past them
EDIT: maybe with aspect mastery they could add the AP from hawk to viper. Although that would only effect BM. Or they could somehow make Imp AotH give the ap to Viper. This would compensate it a small way, but having to spend points to not get hit twice by mechanics sucks imo.
I've long thought about moving Aspect Mastery deeper in the tree and basically turning it into a talent which would allow you to have two Aspects up at once, but I've never really brought it up since I don't think it's a likely possibility, and it wouldn't do much anyway if they're adamant about keeping the damage penalty on AotV :P It'd be easy enough to fold the Monkey bonus into Improved Aspect of the Monkey, it's not like anyone takes the talent anyway...
Anyways, I notice that while the Marksmanship tree has a lot of passive mana cost reduction, it lacks a real means of active regeneration like BM and Survival have, and this is coupled with it having a much larger rate of mana consumption in Chimera Shot makes me continue to worry about the tree's viability. I think it needs to be brought to Blizzard's attention so that it can be addressed, lest we have a lot of potential wasted (I personally would love to give Marksmanship another spin, but I can't see myself doing it with the way the tree is now).
Yes, yes, I know this probably isn't among our most pressing concerns at the moment, but it's been on the backburner of my mind for a while so I thought I'd put it out there. Again.
Last edited by Steelfleece : 09/23/08 at 10:16 PM.
Yet another who misunderstands where this is going.
While I am a firm believer that PvP has ruined this game, this is not a case of it.
As it stands, it takes 15~ seconds to regen a full mana bar with the current implementation. What Koraa suggested is the same regeneration, but without the need to be hitting things for it, yet still having the penalty while hitting things.
The new regen's number hasn't been officially announced or even hinted at, but it's not going to be the 4 minutes (as someone in a thread somewhere mentioned) that the current live version takes. It's going to be a matter of seconds form 0% to 100%.
This is just a completely wild assumption, but my first impression is that it sounds like our mana bar is being treated like a rogues energy bar - the only difference is that we have to use a GCD, switch aspects and pay a damage penalty for regeneration.
The question is honestly if, now that the regen is not based off damage, and mana is a concern given you're in Viper, it's not more efficient to actually autoshot during viper times, since all attacks's dpm will be cut in half.
The question is honestly if, now that the regen is not based off damage, and mana is a concern given you're in Viper, it's not more efficient to actually autoshot during viper times, since all attacks's dpm will be cut in half.
The mana regen wasn't based off damage. It was based of the rate of the damage 'ticks'.
Not using Auto-Shot while in AotV in the current version and the planned 'passive regen' model is just stupid since it doesn't 'cost' you anything apart from ammo. Using specials would increase the amount of time you're in AotV so that'll be a question of if the mana regen is fast enough that spamming specials while in AotV, potentially prolonging the time spent is a lesser DPS loss than just switching off all specials and go auto-shot AFK.
Given that T9 hunter's shots don't cost any more than a Green hunter's, regenning off base mana makes sense if your aim is that "x seconds in Viper means x * y out of it". If it was done off total mana, T9 hunters would have to spend much less time in Viper to get, say, 30 second's worth of time out of it.
Yes, that was the point I was getting at. T9 would mean fewer changes to Viper and back again, not less time spent in Viper in percentages. Is that a worthy value? Personally I don't think so given that Leather looks mighty tempting as a solution to get rid of Haste. Yeah we will lose some Int, actually a fair bit, but since it is basemana it won't hurt our relative manaregen. We will have to pay a penalty of more Aspect GCDs, but that is where I think it will fail. The DPS benefit of the Hasteless leather would outweigh that penalty, and we would return to the issue of no real incentive to gear for Int. The only difference from now would be that Int gear would be a little less DPS ineffective compared to before. Hunters should want to get Int since that is what they are obviously aiming for. Leather gear shouldn't be a viable solution, it only creates a bottleneck. Even with the Armed to the Teeth talent Warriors still look with hungry eyes at Leather and Enhancement Shamans will likely love it too... With us in the mix, and possibly retris and DPS DKs we are looking at a massive fight over gear that was intended for four specs (and honestly it isn't fair to the Rogues and Druids that we grab theirs while they can't grab another armortype). That can never be good.
Besides I don't want to wear Leather, I feel half naked at the thought, I want to use my gear, and I expect the others do too. I should be able to safely disregard Leather unless I'm undergeared.
Hmm... Well, at least they are throwing us a bone in regards to PvP regeneration. One down 200 to go.
I don't really see how. This change to viper seems to make the class excessively vulnerable to drains, something that's not that big a problem now. Viper is strong enough in 2.x to keep us at a functional level after being drained. That's why people sit in it during arenas. Sure, it's not going to be enough to do significant burst, but being drained doesn't destroy the class. And I agree with this idea that that's boring and should probably be changed. At the very least it'd be nice to see Monkey be more usable.
This change though seems to paint the class with a huge DRAINME target. It encourages large blue bars just begging to be drained and when that's gone you've got a hunter doing 50% dmg for however long.
Err.. You know, I wanted to end this with a generic platitude about wanting to try the ability out before disliking it, but in thinking about it the mana regen would have to be ridiculously huge to counter some of the drains currently in the game. Mana burn is 1500 for a 2 second cast. Viper is 1k every 2 sec and has near permanent uptime with Chim. I'm sure drain mana is comparable.
I realize we are just talking numbers here, but if AotV isn't balanced against drains the 2.4 "Always just barely enough" implementation is hands down superior. If it is, though, then the regen would be so absurdly large we might as well have some other mechanic than mana. Well, I realize that's not particularly conducive, but it certainly does feel like they are trying to give us Not-Mana without actually removing Mana. It'll be interesting where this ends up.
I don't want to start hurling stones yet until I see exactly how they're going to get the 'passive regen' mechanics right. Will it account for haste effects? Will I have to wait 16 seconds regardless of how much haste I have doing 50% damage? At least Evocation and Lifetap are quickened by their haste stats. Will I be compensated for taking 8 points in efficiency based talents? Those are the questions I'd love to see answered. There are two very different mechanics and needs. I would prefer to see AotV get split into two different aspects. One is passive, the other is active.
You're exactly right. I knew my PvE AotV regen would get better over time as my haste increased (or I could reserve Rapid Fire to get it back really fast) so I was pleased with the design as it was. (In PvP my mana regen comes from resurrecting at the graveyard, as it usually turns out.)
Originally Posted by Terp
This change though seems to paint the class with a huge DRAINME target. It encourages large blue bars just begging to be drained and when that's gone you've got a hunter doing 50% dmg for however long.
Terp has an excellent point. Now we have a set of clearly conflicting goals:
PvE Hunters should be strongly discouraged from leaving AotV up all of the time.
PvP Hunters should not have their damage excessively penalized if they have AotV up.
If they're not penalized, why wouldn't PvE hunters leave AotV up all of the time? And if you do penalize them, then PvP Hunters will be drained so that penalty applies to them as well.
Rock and a hard place, Blizzard!
(My suggestion would be just give up on #1, and change the mechanism to give you a passive mana regen [similar to what we get now on live], plus additional regen whenever you perform a ranged or melee attack [similar to the PTR, but reduced in amount.])
09/23/08, 7:34 PM
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