• Nisu

I guess my mind is playing tricks on me then - I distinctly remember doing heroic bot a little while back and being able to maintain 100% Aimed Shot uptime on the last guy so we could ignore the trees. Carry on, I guess.

 

Terp

The debuff lasts 10 seconds.

Edit: Sean, are you using armor values? IIRC a 3k ap arcane is something like 1k while a steady is 1400ish, the difference being made up in spell vs phys.

 

Sean

Yeah, I am. And I've tested it on Beta as well. It's just not ever worth using.

 

KraxisSingular

Considering the new changes I have thought up a mana-efficiency build for MM including RK, RR, Readiness, Efficiency, AM, Imp Steady and Master Marksman.

Combined they should result in a solid length in Hawk due to passive efficiency, a load more Rapid Fires and finally when in Viper you aren't hit as bad.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The real cost comes in not getting full Surefooted or full Survival Instincts. Of course either of those can be filled with the AM point from BM. That depends on the worth in relation to each other. At this time I think AM is slightly better than the last point in the other two. When we get to T8-9 then perhaps it isn't worth it due to the Hawk bonus being a flat value rather than a scaling one.
Also I only have one GftT as the MM build is really rocking on crit now, even 25 focus per crit should be close to enough.

 

dssurge

Now I honestly think I won't have enough talent points at 80 to really grab all the talents I would want to function 'correctly' as Marks, but theres still time for that to change. I do believe that Marks will be the way to go, though. On the other hand, I don't see Marks/Survival being the ideal talent path strictly for PvE.

One of the only inconsistencies int he Marks tree that bugs me is Imp. SS, and I really wish they would change it to reflect a more consistent implementation of a mana reduction ability (as well as open our options to actually use Aimed or Arcane shot in a rotation). I think I'll throw up a feedback post about this later on tonight, but the basic logic is it would be very simple to add Aimed/Arcane Shot to our PvE rotation in the event they make it more reliable. Throwing full mana cost Chim shots makes me cringe already.

I feel that Aspect Mastery is going to be a staple talent for Marks for the free 100AP and addition damage in the new renditions of AotV, but I think that's being challenged with the ability to go down Survival without wasting any talent points. That said, I don't see a Marks/BM hybrid spec even being non-viable with the changes in Survival becasue talents like Focus Fire and Imp. Res synergize well with Marked for Death and GftT. Not having a pet will always be a detriment to Hunters regardless of spec and picking up some low-tier talents to keep them going seems like win/win. I also really don't believe there is any need to go past 8 points in Survival assuming talents stay as they are, or potentially into Survival at all. If Wild Quiver works out to roughly 4% damage, it makes up Survival Instincts and 2/5 Imp Tracking. Piercing Shots may also be worth it down the road, but this is still yet to be determined. Imp. HM is another 90 AP, over 150 with Glyph (assuming they stack off each other in fashion).

I was thinking something more like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Surefooted is 112 hit rating, but not spending those points in Survival may result in more rating gains elsewhere, this more depends on available itemization than talent selection. Aspect Mastery and Imp. HM make up for 190 AP, so for 3 talents spent elsewhere (assuming you don't go into survival at all) need to make up the other 17 rating worth of hit lost, as well as the 5% damage loss on trackable targets. If Focus Fire, Imp. AotH, Wild Quiver, among other talents I haven't seen in many suggested specs will come out to roughly the same values without having to rely on the target being trackable, I really don't see Marks/Survival being as viable, and as said above, would be based on available itemization.

 

KraxisSingular

Check my build, you get most of all that, but for little waste really. I have left out Wild Quiver as it is being reported as downright crap. That might be the intention (the entire 'some talents aren't meant to be good'), I don't know, but it was bad before and then they nerfed without buffing it again when they said they intended to rebuff things.

 

Terp

Well I found it, Arcane isn't getting Mortal Shots in the spreadsheet. No idea if it's not supposed to, I couldn't find anything about it. Though if you say it's the same on Live then so be it. Arcane also isn't given the crit bonus from Marked for some reason, but at least that says so on the tooltip.

 

Birgitte

Hey, I don't want to repost something that's already been addressed, if it has just ignore, but has anyone figured out new shot rotations for wrath yet?

 

Catalept

It's still in a state of flux at the moment. Blizzard seems perfectly happy to continue making drastic changes even at this late stage, so until WLK actually ships, it's probably not worth discussing rotations too much. Who knows... Aimed Shot might be making a big comeback. Go figure.

 

TrevvyTrev

To be fair, Koraa said they were going to change the talent when they move it, and the talent was always there in the tree, but NYI. It's not like they are adding a new trap talent. SV is just as trap focused (or non-trap focused) as before, and if the changes turn out to be terrible people will just skip it like they did with Readiness when they weren't impressed with it.

 

KraxisSingular

Wasn't the lack of Readiness because of Master Tactician and not Readiness itself? Get a crappy 5-pointer to get a quite nice but not OP end talent. In it's own right Readiness was pretty good, just never good enough to warrent the DPS losses from other trees since in reality it was a 6-pointer.

With Readiness and instant Aimed there is going to be some pretty impressive MM combos for PvP. Burn a target down to those 20%, then Aimed and KS. Target has healer that just barely keeps him alive, then Readiness and another Aimed - KS combo. Target should be well on his down towards the ground at the end of it. If not, then someone have really failed badly somewhere as this combo should be rather considerable damage in not long a period.

 

Spiry

If Craptalent 3.0 makes an appearance it will most likely be linked to Explosive shot?

We'd better hope it's either unlinked or not Craptalent 3.0...

 

Birgitte

Thank you very much. I'll stay tuned for that.

 

Terp

MM benefits heinously from the talent. To the point that this change not going through is going to be heartbreaking. In addition to crazy spike from double chimera and kill shot, double silencing and scatter is flabbergasting. Double instant cast aimed is just the goddamn topping on the cake.

 

Kaejin

I'm placing my bets on Lacerate Trap. All the benefits of Lacerate, now with the mechanics of a trap! What could be better?

In all seriousness, if it makes traps any more usable in PvP I'd be somewhat happy. Not happy that I had to use a talent point to make them useful, but glad they finally were useful when I really needed them to be.

Now-a-days it's mostly just me dropping a Frost Trap right before death as petty revenge.

 

Catalept

The Aimed Shot change will have some interesting knock-on effects, I think... it's entirely possible that Readiness was moved to MM because a Trap + LnL + ES + ES + ES + KS + Aimed Shot + Readiness + KS + Aimed Shot when fully mobile was too much of a "Killer Combo". Also, an instant Aimed means that it should be possible to keep the healing debuff up permanently, from 41 yards... does Blizzard intend that to happen? Because there's going to a crapton of clothies who might object to that...

 

KraxisSingular

Obviously there will be, but lets look at it from our PoV. We don't have our old def against casters, pushback, and aside from the 4% damage reduction in Surv, we have no defenses dealing with their damage. Hence we are, to say it mildly, not overly impressive against casters anymore. Melee still have thier old advantages and then some perhaps. It'll be more a point of actually getting to 41 yards than being able to do it. What help does it do if the next second the enemy is in our melee range and we get no burst in right when it is most imperative (when the target is affected by the debuff)?

I would say that this change needs to have a fair go. It looks OP to anyone with no experience as Hunter in Arenas, and it might also be OP, that is far from an impossible thing. But lets hope it doesn't get kneejerk reverted because of unsubstantiated whining, like has happened before. If it turns out to be too much, then sure, do something about it. And really, I doubt that Aimed Shot can do it alone for us... But slowly we are taking babysteps in the right direction it seems (no more knockdown on KS etc).

 

Catalept

I don't doubt that Blizzard is sincere about getting classes changes 'right'... but the spectre of another 2 years at the bottom of the PvP food-chain looms large, and the somewhat erratic changes being made aren't exactly reassuring. TBH, I'm still grumpy about being told that SV will have a talent Blizzard knows is gimp sitting in a prime spot on the tree... that's just downright demoralizing.

 

Bovii

Most of us Survival Hunters skipped Readiness for a couple reasons:

1- You got more DPS, if you're gear was up to par, out of spending the last 7 points on Improved Aspect of the Hawk 5/5 and Focused Fire 2/2.

2- Unlike the Mage and Rogue variations (especially the Rogue version), there weren't enough abilities tied into Readiness to make it worth while. Most raids took 1-2 Hunters so another Misdirection wasn't that valued and most guilds were geared/skilled to the point where it wasn't needed. We don't have access to a specific long duration shot that does an insane amount of damage or provides benefit X. The only direct benefits of Readiness were those "oh crap" FD necessities and another Rapid Fire.

3- Like you said, Master Tactician at a base 6% chance to proc was terrible and most SV Hunters were sitting at 37% crit, unbuffed. Raid buffed, most of us are around 45-50%. While some people will argue, crit% does have a slight diminishing retun after a certain percentage. That combined with the low proc rate made Master Tactician less valued. As it was the prereq for Readiness, why invest those talent points when you can have point #1 (which put most, if not all, SV Hunters in the 3:2 rotation) and because of point #2?

With the advent of Readiness getting dropped to 3 minutes and its perfect synergy with Rapid Killing, you were looking at a massive change in power of Readiness. On top of that, because Explosive Shot was/is so powerful (that point is still pending with as much as they continue to nerf it) combined with the unlinking of Auto Shot and the diluge of haste in the expansion, you are going to invest those 7 points into the Survival tree because ES >>> Arcane Shot.

I will admit that my playing around with War-Tools has always had Scatter Shot moving to the SV tree. I disagree, mightily, with it being an 11 point talent. And the concept of making Trap Master, or a trap talent AT ALL, as our 41 point talent is disheartening and insulting to me. I am beside myself and utterly lost in how they're trying to design us. It is one thing to redesign our DPS mechanics for the SECOND time. It is something else to dismantle one tree to fit the another.

As for what is to come, I have no idea. A 41 point trap talent is frightening to say the least.

 

Catalept

What if it gave the ability to throw traps, thus keeping PoNE up on raid bosses while still at 30+ yards, and drop LnL-triggering explosive traps on CCed PvPers?

... now if you'll excuse me, I have to mail Satan some snow boots.

 

Bovii

I honestly like the concept of "throwing" traps. Though, the way they're going about it isn't right. Then again, have they really done anything the right way thus far?

Seriously though, they need to scrap the Ice Trap Shot stuff altogether along with our current traps. The problems with our traps have never been what they're addressing. And the solutions that they've giving still don't fix the problems. What good is a ranged Freezing Trap in PvE? What good is a ranged Freezing Trap in PvP when I'm LOSed, the target CC/magic immune, or it can just be dispelled again? For that matter, what good is giving Freezing Trap a "feedback" type kick to the dispeller when the root is only 4s and just as dispellable as the original trap?

This is what I would do. This is just me and how I have experienced the game:

- Trigger range for traps set at 5 yards (disallows "trap dancing") and the visibility of traps is now set at a stealth level equal to the level of the Hunter - X (does not impact Detect Traps).

- Freezing Trap, Immolation Trap, and Snake Traps removed.

- New Traps:

• Deadfall Trap - Incapacitates the target for 20s (physical; see sap - all targets) and breaks after X damage.

• Snare Trap - Reduces the target's movement by 50% (physical) and does X damage + RAP*0.1 over 15s (physical bleed effect; see Immolation Trap).

• Smoke Trap (name pending) - Reduces the movement of all targets within 10 yards by 60% for 30s...in addition, reduces the time between attacks by 25% and increases casting time by 25%. Mana cost increased by X%.

- New Trap "Shots":

• Smoke Trap Shot: Takes effect upon impact.

• Explosive Trap Shot: See the flame burst arrows in Shattered Halls; Takes effect upon impact.

What the above does is minimizes the weaknesses of traps in PvP, gives the player the ability to still use traps on boss mobs without having to lose DPS running in and out (who does that anyway?) and without reducing traps to a one-and-done sort of thing or a boss "adds" effect, and it actually provides some arena usability by allowing a player to AE snare a DPS train and provide some protection for a teammate. I could be wrong, though, in how people see it.

 

TrevvyTrev

Right, but some people still aren't sold on Master Tactician, which means people will still skip the SV 41-pointer no matter what it is. Changing it to trap mastery doesn't make things any worse, and for all we know it may be even better.

 

Catalept

The problem remains that (boss-affecting) traps are a melee ability, which makes them completely irrelevant in endgame encounters. I can't see a general purpose 'trap mastery' talent ever changing that, unless a) It boosted trap damage coefficients to at least 0.15 and b) The 41-point talent allowed LnL-proccing traps to be thrown from at least 31 yards*. Unless it means that we can use traps at range, and make them worth burning the GCD, a 41-point trap talent will mean we're (still) going to be in a situation where SV's 41-point talent is a $2 tchotke gathering dust on the shelf... which, ever since Lacerate, has pretty much been the case.

Edit:

* Even then, it'd have to be a "throws a trap at the target" ability, otherwise the time to manually place it would destroy it's DPS payoff.

 

Budack

"Lock and Load - Now gives you a 100% chance when you trap a target and a 100% chance when you deal periodic damage with your Serpent Sting to cause your next 2 Arcane Shot or Explosive Shot to trigger no cooldown, cost no mana, and consume no ammo."

Just tested this out. Lock and Load procs on every serpent sting on the initial shot. I don't imagine this will stay very long.

 

Bovii

That was a mistake and is going to be changed. Blue somewhere (no, I don't have the link) indicated as such that it is supposed to go back to 15% per tick.