WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 121

Akston · 09/24/08, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Budack

"Lock and Load - Now gives you a 100% chance when you trap a target and a 100% chance when you deal periodic damage with your Serpent Sting to cause your next 2 Arcane Shot or Explosive Shot to trigger no cooldown, cost no mana, and consume no ammo."

Just tested this out. Lock and Load procs on every serpent sting on the initial shot. I don't imagine this will stay very long.

It's bugged right now. 100% on the initial application but the dot isn't triggering it and according to the beta forums it is still only 15% chance per tick according to the tooltip.

Edit: Beaten to the punch

Illy · 09/25/08, 12:02 AM

It's nice to finally have level 70 (and 60) target dummies to test on the PTR, but unfortunately The Beast Within is still bugged and not affecting the hunter, so impossible to test out BM specs. Can test out the pets though.

On 6m long tests with pet abilities on auto (except the devilsaur, I was manually controlling Bite so Monstrous Bite didn't fall off) I tried the Devilsaur, Raptor, and Cat on the 60 target dummy (all were level 65, after seeing so many specials for the raptor miss on the 70 I was hoping the lower target dummy would give a better estimate of their potential). The Cat was tops with an average of 466 dps to the Devilsaur's 432 and Raptor's 424. Tried the Cat again without the extra 4 points from the 51 point BM talent and the dps only dropped to 433.

On the level 70 target dummies the Cat was even more pronounced at about 240 dps to the next closest (Devilsaur) at 160 (again, they were all 65).

• Nisu · 09/25/08, 1:18 AM

For those who were wondering about Aimed Shot:

Originally Posted by Koraa

We'll have to tone down the damage of Aimed Shot actually, probably in the ballpark of less than what it is now but more than what multi-shot does to a single target or arcane shot. We have not yet settled on the appropriate number.

Doesn't answer the question of whether of not it resets the shot timer, though.

Also:

Originally Posted by Koraa

It isn't 100%, its more around 2/4/6% on periodic damage from Serpent Sting. Its proc chance is in the ballpark of Shadow Trance (Nightfall) for Warlocks, though 2% higher (since Nightfall is 4%).

Seems like a tooltip bug.

Edit: Nm, seems like its really bugged

Ouch. 15% per tick was probably too much to hope for, and this is still twice the old proc rate of 15% on hit, but more consistent.

Kaejin · 09/25/08, 2:04 AM

I think those were to be expected, especially for Aimed Shot. I hope though, that when they say more than Arcane/Multi, they mean a good deal more, rather than just slightly more.

Sean · 09/25/08, 3:32 AM

I would guess that Aimed will no longer reset the Auto-timer and just be another Instance shot along the same lines of damage as the other abilities with the added bonus of the Healing Debuff on it. Mana cost would probably be toned down a bit too.

Catalept · 09/25/08, 4:03 AM

Originally Posted by Nisu

Ouch. 15% per tick was probably too much to hope for, and this is still twice the old proc rate of 15% on hit, but more consistent.

At a 6% per-tick proc-rate, the expected yield is only 0.24 extra Explosive Shots per minute, and Nightfall's usefulness is compounded by Shadowbolt's slow cast and caster's GCD-haste. Oh well... the good thing about gimp talents is that they make speccing easier

Shandara · 09/25/08, 5:19 AM

I didn't see it mentioned yet:

Tier7 2-set bonus is now 'Your pet deals an additional 5% damage.'

Griffen · 09/25/08, 5:46 AM

Originally Posted by Sean

I would guess that Aimed will no longer reset the Auto-timer and just be another Instance shot along the same lines of damage as the other abilities with the added bonus of the Healing Debuff on it. Mana cost would probably be toned down a bit too.

Yeah. Sounds likely. The most interesting question for me now, is if it will share CD with arcane shot.

Edit:
Anyone know what's the reasoning behind scorpid sting nerf?
- Stings the target, reducing chance to hit with melee and ranged attacks by 3% for 20 sec. Only one Sting per Hunter can be active on any one target. (from Wrath of the Lich King - Hunter - Marksmanship Skills )
Down from 5% to 3%.

It never exactly have struck me as "imba".

Shandara · 09/25/08, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by Griffen

Yeah. Sounds likely. The most interesting question for me now, is if it will share CD with arcane shot.

Edit:
Anyone know what's the reasoning behind scorpid sting nerf?
- Stings the target, reducing chance to hit with melee and ranged attacks by 3% for 20 sec. Only one Sting per Hunter can be active on any one target. (from Wrath of the Lich King - Hunter - Marksmanship Skills )
Down from 5% to 3%.

It never exactly have struck me as "imba".

Quite a few of those type of abilities have been nerfed/changed. I guess it has to do with them changing how avoidance scales. All too easily a tank could be uncrittable, uncrushable and hard to hit (high dodge/parry/etc..). That lead to Encounter designers making bosses hit harder and harder, increasing _spike_ damage. Which lead to Sunwell Radiance.

If I had to guess, with the new diminishing returns on avoidance, they want to make fights less spikey and more constant. Thus they need to reduce all ways of getting the boss' +hit down as well.

It could just as well be a random nerf though.

Midnight · 09/25/08, 6:17 AM

It´s propably to bring it in line with Insect Swarm that reduces the chance to be hit by 3% too. With avoidance propably going down for all tanks its use had already diminished and I propably wouldn´t have used it a lot even with 5% let alone 3%.
Speaking of bringing it in line with Insect Swarm and Insect Swarm beeing a DoT in addition to its hit reduction it doesn´t seem unreasonable to ask for scorpid sting to be combined with serpent sting. Would also help getting rid of at least one button on my already overpopulated bars.

Chul · 09/25/08, 6:38 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

I didn't see it mentioned yet:

Tier7 2-set bonus is now 'Your pet deals an additional 5% damage.'

That's annoying for non-BM hunters. MM and Surv pets do ~15% of their total damage, so that is a 0.75% total damage increase. I know it's only a two piece set bonus, but that seems lacklustre.

Shandara · 09/25/08, 6:43 AM

Originally Posted by Chul

That's annoying for non-BM hunters. MM and Surv pets do ~15% of their total damage, so that is a 0.75% total damage increase. I know it's only a two piece set bonus, but that seems lacklustre.

It's far better than the previous bonus though.

dlanod · 09/25/08, 7:17 AM

Given a few earlier comments about new quivers/ammo pouches, I'm just noting LWers got a pair of recipes for a 28 slot quiver and ammo pouch off rep:

[Dragonscale Ammo Pouch] - Dragonscale Ammo Pouch, from The Kalu'ak at Honored.
[Nerubian Reinforced Quiver] - Nerubian Reinforced Quiver, from Knights of the Ebon Blade at Honored.

Xoran · 09/25/08, 7:22 AM

With the introduction of lvl 70 and all other target dummys (which I really hope Blizzard will keep on live) I'm really interested in some numbers of lvl 70 specs (61 talent pts), because I noticed big differences between the new and former dummys (maybe just armor and level?) and these might change the outcome of different specs.
If lag on the eu beta realm is bearable, I might be able to contribute some dps numbers with lvl 71 pets later.

Schniepel · 09/25/08, 7:32 AM

Do we already have numbers on how good Furious Howl will be on a lvl 80 wolf? If it doesn't fall far behind BoM or BS it might be a viable option to free up the repective buffs in case of Paladin/Warrior shortage. Moreover ist should make the Wolf top dps, if the buffs weren't availabe, since our pets scale ridiculously well with AP.

Shandara · 09/25/08, 7:33 AM

From my testing on the level 70 dummy, it appears to have an armor value roughly around 6750-6800 or roughly 39% mitigation. Tested with a fixed damage (29-29) Fine Light Crossbow.

6775/(6775 - 22167,5 + (467,5 * 70)) = 39,09%

Bellin · 09/25/08, 7:50 AM

Seeing last changes MM got some nice boosts. But I do not think it will be that better to justify bringing 2 MM hunter to a raid.
On the other hand I am disappointed they haven't implemented any positive changes to BM tree (yes kindred spirits is better than separation anxiety but worth same as unleashed fury), and that they have given us 41pt placeholder (which it utterly useless) in SV tree.
Aimed shot nerf was expected and depending mana costs it might see use in PvE.

And finally some boosts for arena. Now we only need passive mana regeneration and tougher pets (I wouldn't mind pillar clear arenas either) to be fully competitive in Arenas.

I agree 2xt7 bonus is much better for BM than it is for MM/SV, but at least it is something. Now they only need to change 4xt7

Griffen · 09/25/08, 8:36 AM

Originally Posted by Midnight

Speaking of bringing it in line with Insect Swarm and Insect Swarm beeing a DoT in addition to its hit reduction it doesn´t seem unreasonable to ask for scorpid sting to be combined with serpent sting. Would also help getting rid of at least one button on my already overpopulated bars.

That would indeed be an excellent idea.

KraxisSingular · 09/25/08, 8:48 AM

Originally Posted by Midnight

It´s propably to bring it in line with Insect Swarm that reduces the chance to be hit by 3% too. With avoidance propably going down for all tanks its use had already diminished and I propably wouldn´t have used it a lot even with 5% let alone 3%.
Speaking of bringing it in line with Insect Swarm and Insect Swarm beeing a DoT in addition to its hit reduction it doesn´t seem unreasonable to ask for scorpid sting to be combined with serpent sting. Would also help getting rid of at least one button on my already overpopulated bars.

Completely agree. I'm not unhappy to see Scorpid go the way of the dodo, it was never interesting, and with the removal of crushing it's value has been reduced to nigh nothing. Using it now is borderline stupid given the DPS loss for all specs. But I'm tired of seeing our utility being the same as others' but without the added benefit of something else. Insect Swarm, Tricks of the Trade, Replenishment (20% mana to the pally and a DoT for the Spriests). Did I forget something? We still have TSA but I really don't expect the glyph to go on live. It doesn't fir the entire theme of things right now.

So yes, combine Serpent and Scorpid and lets get it over with. It would potentially free up some points for the Boomkin (if the spelldamage bonus the Improved version gives is covered elsewhere), and we would have a small something for instances.

Midnight · 09/25/08, 10:36 AM

Something else and I hope this isn´t perceived as whining. I wonder how hard SV will be hit by the ES nerf. On the one hand it´s propably still the best scaling shot available to hunters but on the other hand SV didn´t seem to be that much out of leage compared to MM (disregarding the mana problems) and BM before either.
At 4000 AP the new version of ES does roughly half of its former damage. Assuming specials make up roughly one third of the survival hunters damage and ES in turn makes up for one third of the special damage that´s -5,5% overall damage which sounds pretty much to me. Am I overreacting here or is halfing the damage of SVs prime shot really as bad as it feels like it is?

erragal · 09/25/08, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Completely agree. I'm not unhappy to see Scorpid go the way of the dodo, it was never interesting, and with the removal of crushing it's value has been reduced to nigh nothing. Using it now is borderline stupid given the DPS loss for all specs. But I'm tired of seeing our utility being the same as others' but without the added benefit of something else. Insect Swarm, Tricks of the Trade, Replenishment (20% mana to the pally and a DoT for the Spriests). Did I forget something? We still have TSA but I really don't expect the glyph to go on live. It doesn't fir the entire theme of things right now.

So yes, combine Serpent and Scorpid and lets get it over with. It would potentially free up some points for the Boomkin (if the spelldamage bonus the Improved version gives is covered elsewhere), and we would have a small something for instances.

As a balance druid, i'm all for this! Currently Insect Swarm is actually a DPS loss for us without the glyph (that removes the hit debuff anyway), but it becomes the highest DPS part of our regular rotation once we glyph it. So we're in the same situation you are, though we likely lose less DPS than you by switching the glyph off. It's going to be necessary right now for moonkin and hunters to decide if losing 100-200 DPS or more is worth that 3% hit. It was more of a no-brainer at 5%, but 3% is starting to become almost incidental.

Kom · 09/25/08, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Midnight

Something else and I hope this isn´t perceived as whining. I wonder how hard SV will be hit by the ES nerf. On the one hand it´s propably still the best scaling shot available to hunters but on the other hand SV didn´t seem to be that much out of leage compared to MM (disregarding the mana problems) and BM before either.
At 4000 AP the new version of ES does roughly half of its former damage. Assuming specials make up roughly one third of the survival hunters damage and ES in turn makes up for one third of the special damage that´s -5,5% overall damage which sounds pretty much to me. Am I overreacting here or is halfing the damage of SVs prime shot really as bad as it feels like it is?

Upon reading your post I thought you had to be overreacting, but it seems your not.. My spreadsheet had marks and surv roughly at the same point (surprisingly) in 3.0 (still 70), with the hunter component in both cases being around 3350, obviously with every synergy category factored in. This change brings surv down to 2750, with explosive shot damage per shot being literally halved, maybe even more so considering that Imp Tracking may no longer affect the explosive ticks.

Bellin · 09/25/08, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Midnight

Something else and I hope this isn´t perceived as whining. I wonder how hard SV will be hit by the ES nerf. On the one hand it´s propably still the best scaling shot available to hunters but on the other hand SV didn´t seem to be that much out of leage compared to MM (disregarding the mana problems) and BM before either.
At 4000 AP the new version of ES does roughly half of its former damage. Assuming specials make up roughly one third of the survival hunters damage and ES in turn makes up for one third of the special damage that´s -5,5% overall damage which sounds pretty much to me. Am I overreacting here or is halfing the damage of SVs prime shot really as bad as it feels like it is?

Taken it is still best shot, doing half the dmg it used to, this might be even bigger nerf than 5.5%. If pet makes estimated 20% of hunter's dmg, and ES does 30% of what hunter does on his own then it is 0.3*0.8/2 = 0.12 or 12% less dmg.

I believe that it will get buffed one way or another really, and probably scale on 12%-15% RAP (instead of current 8%).

Gurth · 09/25/08, 11:42 AM

I'm the only one not surprised about the change? ES was overpowered, especially pvp wise. Pve wise this change destroy SV dps so i'm expecting some buff to other abilities to make up for the difference, wouldn't surprise me that they are keeping the door open for the 41 pts sv talent just for that.

Also i expect a big nerf on aimed shot too. If they keep it like that every spec will be forced to take it to use it in DPS rotation, also kiting in bgs with a 4-5k istant MS seems jujst not right. Expect it to be more in line with arcane shot or a cast time of 2+ sec back.

Bellin · 09/25/08, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gurth

I'm the only one not surprised about the change? ES was overpowered, especially pvp wise. Pve wise this change destroy SV dps so i'm expecting some buff to other abilities to make up for the difference, wouldn't surprise me that they are keeping the door open for the 41 pts sv talent just for that.

Also i expect a big nerf on aimed shot too. If they keep it like that every spec will be forced to take it to use it in DPS rotation, also kiting in bgs with a 4-5k istant MS seems jujst not right. Expect it to be more in line with arcane shot or a cast time of 2+ sec back.

ES nerf was expected but not on this scale. But you cannot call ES overpowered in PvP if we cannot do it long enough because of going OOM. And it is normal for Aimed dmg to be lowered but I would not call it a nerf, as it will be still better than what we have on live.