WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 122

KraxisSingular · 09/25/08, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

As a balance druid, i'm all for this! Currently Insect Swarm is actually a DPS loss for us without the glyph (that removes the hit debuff anyway), but it becomes the highest DPS part of our regular rotation once we glyph it. So we're in the same situation you are, though we likely lose less DPS than you by switching the glyph off. It's going to be necessary right now for moonkin and hunters to decide if losing 100-200 DPS or more is worth that 3% hit. It was more of a no-brainer at 5%, but 3% is starting to become almost incidental.

Good to see some agreement on it.

The +miss on either ability is hardly noteworthy in itself. That is why you get your glyph, and that is why we could safely disregard Scorpid before. The reason it was/is good on live is the crushing removal. 5 out of perhaps 15-20% for a Druid is a massive boost in survivability and ease for healers. If it was just 5% less hits is would amount it practically no lessened healing.
Besides, these miss skills improve as the tank gets better avoidance. With the 'nerfed' avoidance they will do even less than before. I seriously doubt the resulting longevity for the healers will make up for the loss of DPS. It is that little. Now it is even less so Scorpid is dead as a standalone ability. Only MM PvP with the Chimera portion will have some functionality, and even so I think it will be more of an 'oh crap' option.

I can see the hit to MM PvP, and so if we combine the PvE aspects of Serpent and Scorpid, I suggest we combine the PvP aspects of Viper and Scorpid. That means you would sting a Warrior with Viper to get the effect. Few casters will be bothered by getting disarmed, and few Warriors will be bothered by having their mana drained... eh? The only ones that would/could get bothered are Retris, but their mana can't be drained, and Enhancement Shamans, and they would have a point. But that could be tweaked back and forth somehow.

WarrenKTF · 09/25/08, 1:35 PM

How is steady shot supposed to be unlinked from auto shot? You still cant fire an auto shot while steady is casting so it just pushes auto back till the steady is cast. The only difference I have noticed is the half second delay that would slow auto shot up sometimes is gone.

I assume this is just a bug with the current beta build.

Cranch · 09/25/08, 2:23 PM

I've got a gorilla on the PTR, and want it to use Thunderstomp every 10 seconds while I am AOEing down the group of mobs on the pet. But instead it melees as soon as it hits 25 focus (this is a 0/10/51 build so no GFTT.) There appears to be no way to tell the pet AI not to melee, unfortunately, so it looks like we'll need to wait until level 72 before we'll be able to have AOE fun!

Kom · 09/25/08, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by WarrenKTF

How is steady shot supposed to be unlinked from auto shot? You still cant fire an auto shot while steady is casting so it just pushes auto back till the steady is cast. The only difference I have noticed is the half second delay that would slow auto shot up sometimes is gone.

I assume this is just a bug with the current beta build.

Maybe something broke in this build, but previous build the auto's will go off during a steady shot cast.

Doncabesa · 09/25/08, 2:39 PM

From my personal experience it will bug if you steady shot first, if you start off with an auto then it should work fine.

Equalizer · 09/25/08, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by Doncabesa

From my personal experience it will bug if you steady shot first, if you start off with an auto then it should work fine.

That's not good. Hopefully they get that fixed in a hurry.

RogueLeaderX · 09/25/08, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by Cranch

I've got a gorilla on the PTR, and want it to use Thunderstomp every 10 seconds while I am AOEing down the group of mobs on the pet. But instead it melees as soon as it hits 25 focus (this is a 0/10/51 build so no GFTT.) There appears to be no way to tell the pet AI not to melee, unfortunately, so it looks like we'll need to wait until level 72 before we'll be able to have AOE fun!

Is smack on auto-cast? Might want to try turning that off.

ZulazeeluIcecrown · 09/25/08, 4:12 PM

As a tank, I will officially murder any Hunter who refuses to keep up Scorpid Sting when there's nobody else around to do it. You guys seem to have no clue what you're talking about; crushing blows never had anything to do with it. The way the combat table works, +5% miss would have reduced a Druid's chance to get hit by 5%, leaving the crush chance still at 15%. Any other kind of tank is crush immune (or should be kicked from the raid).

What it does do is provide a "free" extra 5% (3% in Wrath, apparently) avoidance. In terms of item budgeting for the tank, this is huge, even at 3%, even without crushing blows. Sure, it doesn't stack so maybe you can push it off on the Moonkin, but somebody damn well better be keeping that boss debuffed. The fact that it's relative contribution is slightly lower with lower overall avoidance is also irrelevant: more avoidance is always good, especially with the new Blessing of Salvation.

But hey, that's just a tanky point of view. But my Hunter was my original main, and I'm damn well going to keep Scorpid Sting up for whoever is tanking!

Zerlu · 09/25/08, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by ZulazeeluIcecrown

As a tank, I will officially murder any Hunter who refuses to keep up Scorpid Sting when there's nobody else around to do it. You guys seem to have no clue what you're talking about; crushing blows never had anything to do with it. The way the combat table works, +5% miss would have reduced a Druid's chance to get hit by 5%, leaving the crush chance still at 15%. Any other kind of tank is crush immune (or should be kicked from the raid).

What it does do is provide a "free" extra 5% (3% in Wrath, apparently) avoidance. In terms of item budgeting for the tank, this is huge, even at 3%, even without crushing blows. Sure, it doesn't stack so maybe you can push it off on the Moonkin, but somebody damn well better be keeping that boss debuffed. The fact that it's relative contribution is slightly lower with lower overall avoidance is also irrelevant: more avoidance is always good, especially with the new Blessing of Salvation.

But hey, that's just a tanky point of view. But my Hunter was my original main, and I'm damn well going to keep Scorpid Sting up for whoever is tanking!

No more crushing blows in Wrath. Crushings will only come from mobs calculated to be 4 levels higher than you. Since Raid Level mobs are +3 levels to yours, this eliminates the huge chance to see a tank get insta gibbed. On live, Scorpid Sting fills in the gaps between Shield Block/Holy Shield charges, thus giving tanks a cushion should they not keep this ability permanently up, instead of instantly penalizing them with a raid wipe. Or at least it lowers the chance for said crushing to slip through.

Now, if your guild uses Hunter's solely for their Scorpid Sting, and MD abilities then go right on ahead. Just don't tell the rest of us that we need to make up for your own inability to stay alive in situations where crushings are no longer a factor.

dssurge · 09/25/08, 4:56 PM

I play both a Warrior and a Hunter, since Kara through Sunwell, and have tanked and DPSed on every single encounter. The only fights I would ever even consider using Scorpid on are Azgalor, Archimonde, and Felmyst. All other encounters do not in any way merit it's use in any way shape or form. Your tank can very rarely to never be insta-gibbed if healers are doing their job.

Scorpid Sting is a terribly implemented and absurdly underpowered ability. Even with the new Disarm component being added to Chim shot there are virtually no circumstances outside of PvP I would even consider using Scorpid sting. If anything, it should just be consolidated with Serpent Sting in Wrath seeing as Insect Swarm actually inflicts damage (and has a glyph to remove the -2% hit to deal more damage, a much superior glyph than +3 seconds duration on Serpent).

I seriously wish Blizzard would go back and gut our class of a lot of seemingly pointless abilities.

Trident · 09/25/08, 5:02 PM

Apologies if this has already been mentioned. I just tested Aimed Shot on the test realm and the mechanic of "next Auto Shot after aimed shot ignores any haste" still seems to be in effect. If this remains after Aimed Shot is made instant then we won't be seeing a return of Aimed Shot to any PvE rotations.

huntcaudata · 09/25/08, 5:17 PM

This should be a pretty easy argument to settle. It seems that one should:

If (chance of tank gib) + (chance healers go oom) > (chance the raid reaches enrage timer) Use Scorpid
Else Don't

WarrenKTF · 09/25/08, 5:18 PM

I did a little more testing on the linked auto steady problem I am having. I found out that it will unlink for one steady shot after using another special then it will link again.

Janraea · 09/25/08, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by dssurge

I play both a Warrior and a Hunter, since Kara through Sunwell, and have tanked and DPSed on every single encounter. The only fights I would ever even consider using Scorpid on are Azgalor, Archimonde, and Felmyst. All other encounters do not in any way merit it's use in any way shape or form. Your tank can very rarely to never be insta-gibbed if healers are doing their job.

Scorpid Sting is a terribly implemented and absurdly underpowered ability. Even with the new Disarm component being added to Chim shot there are virtually no circumstances outside of PvP I would even consider using Scorpid sting. If anything, it should just be consolidated with Serpent Sting in Wrath seeing as Insect Swarm actually inflicts damage (and has a glyph to remove the -2% hit to deal more damage, a much superior glyph than +3 seconds duration on Serpent).

I seriously wish Blizzard would go back and gut our class of a lot of seemingly pointless abilities.

It will be less of an issue in Wotlk, since avoidance won't stack as well (diminishing returns), but for a high-end druid at least, 5% reduced chance to hit amounts to a net 10-15% less damage. Nobody will *notice* if you don't use it, since it's all RNG, but the amount of damage you're saving your tank dwarfs the gain from using serpent sting.

It's not 'insta-gibbing' that is the point, it's 'net mana spent'. The numbers will be lower in wotlk, but it will be totally worthwhile to keep scorpid up every fight, to save healer mana (which will be much tighter).

And yeah, scorpid doesn't affect crushing blow percentage at all, except possibly for a dodge-geared rogue or druid.

Mikari · 09/25/08, 5:28 PM

With the nerf to Explosive shot I've been testing out Marks on beta, is this an optimal talent spec, or is there something better?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Cranch · 09/25/08, 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by RogueLeaderX

Is smack on auto-cast? Might want to try turning that off.

Ah, it's worse than I thought. The problem is that Thunderstomp won't autocast. I turned off all autocasts except TS, and that didn't go off, even at 100 focus. Bug reported.

Aerynlore · 09/25/08, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mikari

With the nerf to Explosive shot I've been testing out Marks on beta, is this an optimal talent spec, or is there something better?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Dropping the three points in Hawk Eye, and moving them to Aimed Shot and Rapid Recuperation seem like a smarter choice to me, especially considering that Scatter Shot is now Readiness, and Aimed Shot is... well, who knows what Aimed Shot is going to do anymore.

Also, come to think of it, with all this talk about how Haste isn't such a fantastic stat for us on gear, is the 5/5 Imp AotH really all that good anymore? All it will do is +15% hasted auto-shot, and while not horrible, is it really approximately +1% DPS per talent point?

Midnight · 09/25/08, 5:45 PM

Actually I do have a feral druid myself and I know how powerful scorpid sting is right now. The point is in WotLK a) it´s effectiveness is almost cut in half and b) - and this is propably the more important part - Blizzard already said they didn´t want to repeat their error of allowing such ridiculous amounts of avoidance that are common among tanks nowadays. There´s a big diffrence between going from 80% avoidance to 85% and going from 50% to 53% (the former reduces damage to the tank by 25% the latter by 6%)

Trickytrout · 09/25/08, 5:48 PM

Dropping the three points in Hawk Eye, and moving them to Aimed Shot and Rapid Recuperation seem like a smarter choice to me, especially considering that Scatter Shot is now Readiness, and Aimed Shot is... well, who knows what Aimed Shot is going to do anymore.

Also, come to think of it, with all this talk about how Haste isn't such a fantastic stat for us on gear, is the 5/5 Imp AotH really all that good anymore? All it will do is +15% hasted auto-shot, and while not horrible, is it really approximately +1% DPS per talent point?

Not sure about IAotH being 1% DPS increase per point, but there really isn't any better place for those points. Also consider that those 5 points get you Focused Fire, which is 1% per point.

Janraea · 09/25/08, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Midnight

Actually I do have a feral druid myself and I know how powerful scorpid sting is right now. The point is in WotLK a) it´s effectiveness is almost cut in half and b) - and this is propably the more important part - Blizzard already said they didn´t want to repeat their error of allowing such ridiculous amounts of avoidance that are common among tanks nowadays. There´s a big diffrence between going from 80% avoidance to 85% and going from 50% to 53% (the former reduces damage to the tank by 25% the latter by 6%)

Yes, but reducing total damage by 6% reduces the mana expenditure of at least one healer by 6% (depends on fight). Since we know they intend healers to be mana-limited in fights rather than gcd-limited, saving a significant quantity of healer mana is one of a raid's primary goals.

Harwin · 09/25/08, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

Yes, but reducing total damage by 6% reduces the mana expenditure of at least one healer by 6% (depends on fight). Since we know they intend healers to be mana-limited in fights rather than gcd-limited, saving a significant quantity of healer mana is one of a raid's primary goals.

Only if it changes their healing behavior. In the case of a flat 6% damage reduction, that might happen. If it's a 6% reduction based on random chance, they might still finish casts to top off the tank. The new priest talent that returns part of the mana back on overheal seems like it will help with this some, but it does vary.

And you're also talking about taking 6% mana off a healer (best case) or a similar penalty to a hunter. According to wowhead, scorpid is 11% of base mana, so it's 2x as much as steady shot. It eats about 1/13 of my GCDs. If specials are 40% of my damage, this is taking 3% off of it for straight DPS, and making me enter viper 1 GCD earlier (since it cost double). And I'm not getting serpent sting. So it's a slightly bigger than 6% DPS loss for the hunter for a (best case) 6% mana saving on a healer. And I'm not convinced it's 6% mana savings.

Janraea · 09/25/08, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Harwin

Only if it changes their healing behavior. In the case of a flat 6% damage reduction, that might happen. If it's a 6% reduction based on random chance, they might still finish casts to top off the tank. The new priest talent that returns part of the mana back on overheal seems like it will help with this some, but it does vary.

And you're also talking about taking 6% mana off a healer (best case) or a similar penalty to a hunter. According to wowhead, scorpid is 11% of base mana, so it's 2x as much as steady shot. It eats about 1/13 of my GCDs. If specials are 40% of my damage, this is taking 3% off of it for straight DPS, and making me enter viper 1 GCD earlier (since it cost double). And I'm not getting serpent sting. So it's a slightly bigger than 6% DPS loss for the hunter for a (best case) 6% mana saving on a healer. And I'm not convinced it's 6% mana savings.

It depends on the fight, but I've seen reports of hp in the range of 30k-35k. Reportedly, in most fights that's *well* beyond the spike potential of a boss, so we may see a lot less overhealing. That was in the paladin tanking thread, Cathela I think., I'll go find the post if you want.

I do agree with your point about the loss to a hunter, but I was assuming a BM hunter kept it up - the specials portion of their dps is significantly lower, and they look to have significantly more passive regen in Invigoration + Cobra Strikes. My napkin math put it at around a 2% dps loss to the hunter (loses one steady per 30s).

Harwin · 09/25/08, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

It depends on the fight, but I've seen reports of hp in the range of 30k-35k. Reportedly, in most fights that's *well* beyond the spike potential of a boss, so we may see a lot less overhealing. That was in the paladin tanking thread, Cathela I think., I'll go find the post if you want.

I do agree with your point about the loss to a hunter, but I was assuming a BM hunter kept it up - the specials portion of their dps is significantly lower, and they look to have significantly more passive regen in Invigoration + Cobra Strikes. My napkin math put it at around a 2% dps loss to the hunter (loses one steady per 30s).

Is scorpid 30 seconds now? Wowhead still showed 20 seconds.

And I overestimated slightly - I counted the loss of not serpent stinging AND the loss of not steady shotting.

Gorah · 09/25/08, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

My napkin math put it at around a 2% dps loss to the hunter (loses one steady per 30s).

It's actually more, as you also loose +10% damage to steady shots from glyph, which will be pretty much mandatory.

RogueLeaderX · 09/25/08, 6:51 PM

On a completely different note from the scorpid sting debate.

Been thinking about BM and I'm wondering if having exotic pets benefit more from hunter stats (i.e. scale better) would bring BM up to where it needs to be.

It appears to me that one of BM's issues is that so many talents buff the pet, which scales poorly (compared to the hunter) as the hunter gets better gear.

Good idea, bad idea, enough?