WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 123

Janraea · 09/25/08, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Harwin

Is scorpid 30 seconds now? Wowhead still showed 20 seconds.

And I overestimated slightly - I counted the loss of not serpent stinging AND the loss of not steady shotting.

Nah, still 20. Misread MMO-Champs talent.

Originally Posted by Gorah

It's actually more, as you also loose +10% damage to steady shots from glyph, which will be pretty much mandatory.

I haven't been following the thread for a bit - I thought the glyph just needed *someone* to have a serpent sting on the target. Has that changed?

Johrael · 09/25/08, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

I haven't been following the thread for a bit - I thought the glyph just needed *someone* to have a serpent sting on the target. Has that changed?

You are correct, the glyph just requires a serpent sting to be on the target. Noxious Stings (36 pt SV talent) requires you to have a Serpent Sting up on the target to get the additional +% damage.

Kaejin · 09/25/08, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by RogueLeaderX

On a completely different note from the scorpid sting debate.

Been thinking about BM and I'm wondering if having exotic pets benefit more from hunter stats (i.e. scale better) would bring BM up to where it needs to be.

It appears to me that one of BM's issues is that so many talents buff the pet, which scales poorly (compared to the hunter) as the hunter gets better gear.

Good idea, bad idea, enough?

I think it would be preferable to have the talent itself provide all pets with extra scaling rather than just exotics. The idea of being stuck with the 10 exotic pets available or else having to use a subpar pet in comparison doesn't sit right with me.

RogueLeaderX · 09/25/08, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

I think it would be preferable to have the talent itself provide all pets with extra scaling rather than just exotics. The idea of being stuck with the 10 exotic pets available or else having to use a subpar pet in comparison doesn't sit right with me.

Good point.

Another thought I had was having the different pet families benefit differently.

Ferocity - gains an additional 10% of RAP as PAP.

Tenacity - gains an addition 10% of hunter stamina as pet stamina.

Cunning - gains an additional 5% or RAP as PAP and 5% of hunter stamina as pet stamina.

Something like that. (Number are just place-holders. Possibly a bit too much.)

Or it could add pet scaling with hunter crit% and armor penetration. I like this idea better. The crit scaling would synergize well with the BM tree and armor penetration scaling would potentially make arpen as useful to BM as it is for MM/Survival hunters.

Akston · 09/25/08, 8:11 PM

Originally Posted by RogueLeaderX

Good point.

Or it could add pet scaling with hunter crit% and armor penetration. I like this idea better. The crit scaling would synergize well with the BM tree and armor penetration scaling would potentially make arpen as useful to BM as it is for MM/Survival hunters.

Isn't ArP more valuable for bm than survival or MM? All of a the hunter damage as BM is mitigated by armor where both MM and SV have CS and ES which aren't affected by armor.

Harwin · 09/25/08, 8:32 PM

Originally Posted by Akston

Isn't ArP more valuable for bm than survival or MM? All of a the hunter damage as BM is mitigated by armor where both MM and SV have CS and ES which aren't affected by armor.

On the other hand, BM hunter damage is less of the total damage. The question is, is ( BM Pet - MM Pet ) > ( MM benefit from shots that ignore armor - MM normal shots)

KraxisSingular · 09/25/08, 9:40 PM

Originally Posted by Johrael

You are correct, the glyph just requires a serpent sting to be on the target. Noxious Stings (36 pt SV talent) requires you to have a Serpent Sting up on the target to get the additional +% damage.

Still an issue if there is only one Hunter, in fact more of an issue if there is only one Hunter. Nobody to keep Serpent up for him (and do we know for sure that the Glyph intends any Serpent, and isn't just worded badly? Tests seems in order), might lose out on a lot of talents and a lot of mana. For what gain? If we need Scorpid then I have to say something else is terribly wrong in the raid... And it won't save us.

Besides, the overhealing is in most cases more due to the healers not being fast enough to stop heals due to lag, too close to hit-timer, whatever, than healing through a hit and just overheal. Scorpid will save a few casts, but not much, not even now, and it will be even less in Wrath. If they wanted to, I wouldn't be sad to see it go as it only invites for poor setups. It is that bad

The calculation is more than just keeping below the enragetimer. It is also the point that if using Scorpid is such a loss of DPS that the healers run OOM anyway, then why use it? And it looks to me like that. The slowing of DPS by using Scorpid would just postpone the inevitable.
I will agree that there will be a very few select situations where Scorpid might be worth it, where you have wiped at 1% because healers have gone OOM, but DPS have been able to stay up the entire fight, by mostly their own means, until that OOM. Then Scorpid could push the healing efficiency to the right side of things. But if push comes to shove, healers will generally transfer back and forth on raid and tanks to keep from going OOM. So they basically need to go OOM all of them (or enough to not be able to keep the tank up).

And if it finally comes to the decision to demand someone to put up the 3% miss debuff, then looking at a Boomkin seems more logical. It is overall going to be cheaper for them. Yes, it is a shorter duration but it does damage and is cheaper. Hunter base mana is the highest around and Scorpid costs 11% compared to 9% of IS. With more Int on gear for Boomkins (right?) the hit should be much less in terms of DPS and longevity, but a hit still.

Gurth · 09/25/08, 9:41 PM

Nvm this, should not theorycraft at this hour

KraxisSingular · 09/25/08, 9:44 PM

Originally Posted by Gurth

Worm acid spit is totally imba right now and should be alone worth the BM hunter spot in raid, unless they made changes to that ability i'm not aware of since the last time i looked.

That said, if they are gonna nerf it, and they will, you are totally right.

Doesn't stack with Sunder or Expose Armor. And I doubt many raids will roll around without either Rogues or Warriors at all.

takel · 09/25/08, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Doesn't stack with Sunder or Expose Armor. And I doubt many raids will roll around without either Rogues or Warriors at all.

In any case, with the exception of having a warrior MT, deploying Expose Armour or a Worm pet is a DPS loss in respects to those characters. It's a DPS loss not to be using a Cat or Devilsaur pet and it's a stupidly huge loss to have to consume combo point cycles on refreshing Expose Armour.

What hunters get is the ability to sacrifice some DPS to cover a lack of buffs or debuffs, something that makes our class infinitely more flexible when it comes to filling out raid coverage than you'd otherwise notice.

• Intermission · 09/25/08, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by takel

In any case, with the exception of having a warrior MT, deploying Expose Armour or a Worm pet is a DPS loss in respects to those characters. It's a DPS loss not to be using a Cat or Devilsaur pet and it's a stupidly huge loss to have to consume combo point cycles on refreshing Expose Armour.

What hunters get is the ability to sacrifice some DPS to cover a lack of buffs or debuffs, something that makes our class infinitely more flexible when it comes to filling out raid coverage than you'd otherwise notice.

I'm not sure how the new ranks of Expose/Sunder line up (I assume they're the same amount now), but I remember reading that (on live) it's a dps *increase* for the rogue to use Expose, even for the rogue itself who is Exposing, let alone the extra raid dps.

It goes against what I first thought, but I'm quite sure it was a non-retarded person making the claim. Something along the lines of:
- Doing Expose means they need to partially or completely drop Rupture.
- Rupture makes up ~X% of their dps.
- The damage gain from Sunder to imp Expose is higher than X%.

On the odd chance you didnt have a tanking warrior, Expose would not be very bad at all. Then again, with the new rogue changes in their dps rotation, I have no idea how much worth those combo-points will be compared to their current Rupture use.

takel · 09/26/08, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Intermission

I'm not sure how the new ranks of Expose/Sunder line up (I assume they're the same amount now), but I remember reading that (on live) it's a dps *increase* for the rogue to use Expose, even for the rogue itself who is Exposing, let alone the extra raid dps.

It goes against what I first thought, but I'm quite sure it was a non-retarded person making the claim. Something along the lines of:
- Doing Expose means they need to partially or completely drop Rupture.
- Rupture makes up ~X% of their dps.
- The damage gain from Sunder to imp Expose is higher than X%.

On the odd chance you didnt have a tanking warrior, Expose would not be very bad at all. Then again, with the new rogue changes in their dps rotation, I have no idea how much worth those combo-points will be compared to their current Rupture use.

That is making the assumption that there is not and will not be anyone else using a -armor debuff. It's universally accepted that applying a major armor debuff is a DPS increase for all concerned versus going 'lol no, I'm not doing it'.
There is still an opportunity cost to drop Rupture and use Expose Armor. While in the situation where there is no major armor debuff it would be advantageous for the rogue to drop Rupture and use Expose, the question would be which is the greater DPS hit on a personal level. Using Expose or deploying a worm pet, or getting the dps warrior to stack up the sunders.

Janraea · 09/26/08, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Still an issue if there is only one Hunter, in fact more of an issue if there is only one Hunter. Nobody to keep Serpent up for him (and do we know for sure that the Glyph intends any Serpent, and isn't just worded badly? Tests seems in order), might lose out on a lot of talents and a lot of mana. For what gain? If we need Scorpid then I have to say something else is terribly wrong in the raid... And it won't save us.

Besides, the overhealing is in most cases more due to the healers not being fast enough to stop heals due to lag, too close to hit-timer, whatever, than healing through a hit and just overheal. Scorpid will save a few casts, but not much, not even now, and it will be even less in Wrath. If they wanted to, I wouldn't be sad to see it go as it only invites for poor setups. It is that bad

The calculation is more than just keeping below the enragetimer. It is also the point that if using Scorpid is such a loss of DPS that the healers run OOM anyway, then why use it? And it looks to me like that. The slowing of DPS by using Scorpid would just postpone the inevitable.
I will agree that there will be a very few select situations where Scorpid might be worth it, where you have wiped at 1% because healers have gone OOM, but DPS have been able to stay up the entire fight, by mostly their own means, until that OOM. Then Scorpid could push the healing efficiency to the right side of things. But if push comes to shove, healers will generally transfer back and forth on raid and tanks to keep from going OOM. So they basically need to go OOM all of them (or enough to not be able to keep the tank up).

And if it finally comes to the decision to demand someone to put up the 3% miss debuff, then looking at a Boomkin seems more logical. It is overall going to be cheaper for them. Yes, it is a shorter duration but it does damage and is cheaper. Hunter base mana is the highest around and Scorpid costs 11% compared to 9% of IS. With more Int on gear for Boomkins (right?) the hit should be much less in terms of DPS and longevity, but a hit still.

Your logic makes no sense. "If we need Scorpid then I have to say something else is terribly wrong in the raid... And it won't save us." I could say the same about every other incremental gain you can give to the raid, and it's just as true. Scorpid won't identifiably make or break a raid, and you won't even usually get noticed for it. Incremental gains are not identified by 'in what situation would this save my raid'. That doesn't make them less useful.

As for overhealing, I explained already - healing is not the same in Wotlk. Some fights will be spike-fests I'm sure, but the protadin thread says that they have way too much health in most fights, to the point that there is basically no overhealing, because keeping them at 20k hp (60% health) is perfectly safe.

If all you have to argue with is hypotheticals and anecdotes, then don't try to theorycraft - the game doesn't work the way you seem to think it does, and incremental gains of this magnitude are almost universally worth getting.

• Intermission · 09/26/08, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by takel

That is making the assumption that there is not and will not be anyone else using a -armor debuff. It's universally accepted that applying a major armor debuff is a DPS increase for all concerned versus going 'lol no, I'm not doing it'.
There is still an opportunity cost to drop Rupture and use Expose Armor. While in the situation where there is no major armor debuff it would be advantageous for the rogue to drop Rupture and use Expose, the question would be which is the greater DPS hit on a personal level. Using Expose or deploying a worm pet, or getting the dps warrior to stack up the sunders.

No, I meant only the difference between the Sunder stack and the imp Expose amount.

Here is a random example of a rogue. It was the first one I clicked, I hope its somewhat accurate. Wow Web Stats
4% of his damage is done by Rupture. Assuming he needs to entirely drop Rupture to maintain Expose, it would be roughly a 4% damage loss. However the extra armor from 5 Sunders to Expose would make up that damage for that rogue alone. (not stating it as truth, just saying what I meant in my earlier post. I dont mean no-debuff vs Expose. I mean 2600 vs 3075 of Expose, minus spec dps loss.)

This has little to do with hunters so I'll stop now. I initially just intended to point out that it's not a "stupidly huge loss to have to consume combo point cycles on refreshing Expose Armour."

Janraea · 09/26/08, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Intermission

No, I meant only the difference between the Sunder stack and the imp Expose amount.

Here is a random example of a rogue. It was the first one I clicked, I hope its somewhat accurate. Wow Web Stats
4% of his damage is done by Rupture. Assuming he needs to entirely drop Rupture to maintain Expose, it would be roughly a 4% damage loss. However the extra armor from 5 Sunders to Expose would make up that damage for that rogue alone. (not stating it as truth, just saying what I meant in my earlier post. I dont mean no-debuff vs Expose. I mean 2600 vs 3075 of Expose, minus spec dps loss.)

This has little to do with hunters so I'll stop now. I initially just intended to point out that it's not a "stupidly huge loss to have to consume combo point cycles on refreshing Expose Armour."

Pretty sure expose armor and a sunderstack are the same amount of -armor on beta

ZulazeeluIcecrown · 09/26/08, 2:22 AM

Originally Posted by Zerlu

No more crushing blows in Wrath. Crushings will only come from mobs calculated to be 4 levels higher than you. Since Raid Level mobs are +3 levels to yours, this eliminates the huge chance to see a tank get insta gibbed. On live, Scorpid Sting fills in the gaps between Shield Block/Holy Shield charges, thus giving tanks a cushion should they not keep this ability permanently up, instead of instantly penalizing them with a raid wipe. Or at least it lowers the chance for said crushing to slip through.

Now, if your guild uses Hunter's solely for their Scorpid Sting, and MD abilities then go right on ahead. Just don't tell the rest of us that we need to make up for your own inability to stay alive in situations where crushings are no longer a factor.

Again, you completely and totally misunderstood. On live, in 2.4, Scorpid Sting does not affect Crushing Blows in any way, shape, or form (unless your tank is an idiot). It does not, on live, reduce the chance for a Crushing Blow to slip through. The hit table does not work that way. It does not affect Crushing Blows. The awesomeness of Scorpid Sting is utterly and completely independent of crushing blows. It has nothing to do with Crushing Blows. Remove crushing blows from your thoughts and vocabulary, they have nothing to do with it. I can explain further: regular hit is on the hit table below crushing blow. All Scorpid Sting does, in 2.4, is reduce the chance of getting hit, it does not in any way reduce the chance of getting a crushing blow. (assuming your tank is more than 5% from being passively uncrushable, of course) The chance to get a crushing blow, assuming Holy Shield or Shield Block is not used, is 15%. It is still 15% with Scorpid Sting. Crushing blows are irrelevant and not part of the discussion.

OK, hopefully that was perfectly clear. Scorpid Sting does not affect Crushing Blows, but it is still incredibly awesome from a tank perspective. Even nerfed to 3%, it will do exactly the same thing in WotLK as it does on live: prolong the life of the tank, and make it more likely you will win. You damned well better use it if you can't convince someone else to provide the debuff.

EDIT: I will try to clarify further. At level 80, Scorpid Sting is like giving your tank 120 Dodge Rating, unaffected by diminishing returns, for free. Tell your guild MT that you're going to steal 120 Dodge Rating from him and see how he reacts.

PSGarak · 09/26/08, 2:54 AM

The purpose of all raiders is to contribute to the raid. This does not always mean Pew Pew. I would know; I'm an affliction warlock. You will sacrifice your DPS if and when it is in the best interest of the raid to do so. For a fight where the difficult part of the fight is sustained healing throughput, and the DPS element of the fight is not as critical, you will use scorpid sting. For fights where the healers are swimming in mana, you'll Pew Pew bigger. The discussion is not whether you will or won't, because you will when you need to or you're an idiot and a selfish douchbag who would wipe the raidgroup for his epeen meter. The question at hand is this:

For the times when you are required to use scorpid sting, is the loss unfair?

This is a valid concern. Utility is being redressed in the expansion such that contributing to other portions of the fight does not necessitate that you tank your personal DPS. Losing 10% off steady shot, and the L&L proc, and the sting damage itself seems a bit excessive. Especially compared to something like a warlock's Curse or a druid's Faerie Fire, or a warrior's shout, which costs a global cooldown and a nominal amount of resource. Blizzard is making a concerted effort that "the selfless buffer" gets repaid: Malediction has a 3% damage increase, blood frenzy and improved icy talons have some haste, etc. Rampage doesn't, but that's because warriors would take 5% crit for soloing even if they didn't have to for raids. Since that arguement obviously doesn't apply to scorpid sting, it's valid to request that it has a "selfless buffer" rider effect attached to it. Merging with Serpent Sting is one option (or having it be a talented effect of serpent sting), having hunters gain some buff against targets of their own scorpid sting is another.

TL;DR
Scorpid Sting will want or need to be used, on occassion. Blizzard's recent design decisions are to make (de)buffing less of a personal DPS loss. Scorpid Sting is, in all objectivity, due for review under this paradigm, as it has a much more noticeable effect that talents that have been treated under this policy.

Gorah · 09/26/08, 3:39 AM

Originally Posted by ZulazeeluIcecrown

EDIT: I will try to clarify further. At level 80, Scorpid Sting is like giving your tank 120 Dodge Rating, unaffected by diminishing returns, for free. Tell your guild MT that you're going to steal 120 Dodge Rating from him and see how he reacts.

And you're also missing the point that it is not free. Depending on spec it cost hunter certain degree of dps and in case of MM and SV it's bigger than of BM. I won't tell my MT that im going to steal 120 dodge rating from him, because it's not his. I will tell him that on fights that will require it Im going to give him that rating.

Zerlu · 09/26/08, 3:50 AM

Originally Posted by ZulazeeluIcecrown

Again, you completely and totally misunderstood. On live, in 2.4, Scorpid Sting does not affect Crushing Blows in any way, shape, or form (unless your tank is an idiot). It does not, on live, reduce the chance for a Crushing Blow to slip through. The hit table does not work that way. It does not affect Crushing Blows. The awesomeness of Scorpid Sting is utterly and completely independent of crushing blows. It has nothing to do with Crushing Blows. Remove crushing blows from your thoughts and vocabulary, they have nothing to do with it. I can explain further: regular hit is on the hit table below crushing blow. All Scorpid Sting does, in 2.4, is reduce the chance of getting hit, it does not in any way reduce the chance of getting a crushing blow. (assuming your tank is more than 5% from being passively uncrushable, of course) The chance to get a crushing blow, assuming Holy Shield or Shield Block is not used, is 15%. It is still 15% with Scorpid Sting. Crushing blows are irrelevant and not part of the discussion.

OK, hopefully that was perfectly clear. Scorpid Sting does not affect Crushing Blows, but it is still incredibly awesome from a tank perspective. Even nerfed to 3%, it will do exactly the same thing in WotLK as it does on live: prolong the life of the tank, and make it more likely you will win. You damned well better use it if you can't convince someone else to provide the debuff.

EDIT: I will try to clarify further. At level 80, Scorpid Sting is like giving your tank 120 Dodge Rating, unaffected by diminishing returns, for free. Tell your guild MT that you're going to steal 120 Dodge Rating from him and see how he reacts.

Tell your hunter's you will take a couple hundred DPS and a decent chunk of their mana pool (more, if the survival hunter is stuck doing it) from them and see what happens. The NET gain in healer mana isnt the reason for using scorpid. Its for DECREASING the chance that a big hit could slip through your tanks defenses and kill him. Be it a parry gib, a crushing, or otherwise. The reduction in healing won't mean jack squat in the long run. In Sunwell tanks are pretty much overhealed nonstop to make up for the annoying spike damage that is so common. All our Scorpid sting does statistically is lower the overhealing %. Whoop-dee-doo. Its PRACTICAL use is that gives a reduction in the chance a big hit will land and squish your tank.

Also, on live my Steady Shot is 99 mana. My Scorpid Sting is 273 mana. Almost 3 times as much. If I were to keep Scorpid up non stop during a 6 minute fight, then thats 12 Scorpids. Thats a loss of 12 steadies, which on average will equal out to 13K damage lost (not to mention potential focus loss, lowering pet DPS). That is far more significant a number than people realize.

TL;DR Variety: No one cares that your Hunter's must forgo the luxury of DPSing so that the healers overheals are smaller. This thread is for Wrath theory crafting, and I'm done with this topic.

On Wrath:

With the recent changes, a 49/22 BM build looks to be quite handy.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...10000000000000

Go down far enough in BM to get your typical BC style build, picking up the new stuff (except Kindred Spirits or Exotics), and going down far enough in the MM tree far enough to get the new 21pt Readiness. Longevity+TBW Glyph drops the CD to a minute roughly. Adding in Readiness gives us some pretty sick up time on TBW.

18s of TBW every minute is pretty good, but then you get an extra one every three minutes. An extra 6s per minute (divided the time of one extra TBW across each time frame) of TBW brings us from 30% uptime (18/60=30%) to 40% (18+6/60=40%). An extra 10% of a good thing is a VERY GOOD thing. I guess the major question then is if Kindred Spirits and Exotics will outweigh this potent combo. From Shandara's(sp?) earlier numbers, it looked like Cats are close enough to Devilsaur to already write off the worth of Exotics compared to other talents.

Soo....is there any data yet on Kindred Spirits then? Or is it NYI?

Shandara · 09/26/08, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by Zerlu

Go down far enough in BM to get your typical BC style build, picking up the new stuff (except Kindred Spirits or Exotics), and going down far enough in the MM tree far enough to get the new 21pt Readiness. Longevity+TBW Glyph drops the CD to a minute roughly. Adding in Readiness gives us some pretty sick up time on TBW.

18s of TBW every minute is pretty good, but then you get an extra one every three minutes. An extra 6s per minute (divided the time of one extra TBW across each time frame) of TBW brings us from 30% uptime (18/60=30%) to 40% (18+6/60=40%). An extra 10% of a good thing is a VERY GOOD thing. I guess the major question then is if Kindred Spirits and Exotics will outweigh this potent combo. From Shandara's(sp?) earlier numbers, it looked like Cats are close enough to Devilsaur to already write off the worth of Exotics compared to other talents.

Soo....is there any data yet on Kindred Spirits then? Or is it NYI?

Kindred Spirits is just a flat 20% damage boost to your pet when it's active. Not taking it is sheer madness now. No range check, just always on.

jjkeeper · 09/26/08, 6:06 AM

isn't readiness a survival talent instead of 21pt MM talent?

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator

Bellin · 09/26/08, 6:49 AM

Whoever says Scorpid is mandatory debuff has NO experience with hunter mechanics. Even on live it is worth keeping only in some bosses, and I usually let surv hunter do it (easier to time due to slower shots and less mana problems). I need to correct Zerlu it is 18 Scorpids on 6 minute fight. I personally as BM hit 1100 dmg normal steady with 2500 dmg crits (above 40% crit chance).
And now lets imagine perfect situation.

Dps loss.

(1100 * 0.6) + (2500 * 0.4) = 1660 - average steady dmg
1660 * 18 = 29880 ~ 30000 dmg
30000 / 360 = 83 dps loss on average

Mana loss.

273 - 99 = 174 mana per scorpid
174 / 4 = 43.5 mana per 5 loss
Steady uses 330 mana per 5 
43.5 / 330 * 100 = 13.18% increase

As you see, on live, it is worth using only on bosses where paladins are keeping JoW up on boss, and where tanks are taking really high dmg.

In WotLK MM and Surv get 2 shots that are very dependable on having Serpent sting up, Chimera shot and Explosive Shot. Each of those shots is backbone of MMs or SVs dps, and as such it is hard for me to imagine that lower dmg on tank will be sufficient to justify HUGE dps loss for those 3 specs. It was already discussed in this thread that only viable Scorpid spec is BM. That only be in case our mana problems are nowhere close to what has been reported from beta, and if there is another hunter in the raid to keep Serpent on Boss, due to loss of 10% dmg bonus on glyphed Steady shot.

sjogren · 09/26/08, 6:53 AM

Originally Posted by jjkeeper

isn't readiness a survival talent instead of 21pt MM talent?

You missed the upcoming changes, then:

Originally Posted by Koraa

...
- Readiness - This will now be the 21-point Marksmanship talent.
...

jjkeeper · 09/26/08, 7:13 AM

Originally Posted by sjogren

You missed the upcoming changes, then:

oops, my bad. With all these changes going and I don't really want to read through 120+ pages here, I apologize for my ignorance if any.

My hunter went into the storeroom quite some months, and now WOTLK is drawing near, I'd like to play back my hunter.. but with all the various sources saying different things (due to the many frequent changes made), is camo still available for hunters? Or are they removing it b'cos it's too rogue-like?

◊ Lactose · 09/26/08, 7:42 AM

Originally Posted by jjkeeper

My hunter went into the storeroom quite some months, and now WOTLK is drawing near, I'd like to play back my hunter.. but with all the various sources saying different things (due to the many frequent changes made), is camo still available for hunters? Or are they removing it b'cos it's too rogue-like?

Camouflage is not available for Hunters.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Camo just felt to us like were giving hunters a rogue ability, which is going to end up feeling cruddy for both rogues and hunters. We kept trying to give it a unique niche or twist but it felt like we were just changing something for change's sake. I am personally more excited about the new Disengage.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - [Discussion] Warcraft: Devs and Hunters

The following is also somewhat related: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - We dont get camo because rogues, Dev respond